What Are we Getting Saved From?

[Taken]

They are not physical beings, so obviously they can't have a physical death, but they can die.

A fallen angels death, is not a mortal death.
A fallen angels death, is a spiritual death, which simply means separated forever from God.
It does not mean they are no longer alive.

As Paul says of God in 1 Timothy 6:16 (WEB), "who alone has immortality". God is immortal, but the other spirit beings are not.

1 Tim 6:16 was speaking of; JESUS, WHO:
(We know was NOT a human out of Dust.
We know God prepared Him a body in the Likeness as a human man.
We know His body had Flesh, as a human man also has flesh.
......but His Flesh was without sin...NOT human flesh.
We know His body had BLOOD, as a human also has blood.
.....but His Blood was pure without sin...NOT human blood.
We know His body was Prepared, to be given to become MADE DEAD.
.... His body Was MADE DEAD.
We know His body was Resurrected up from the DEAD.
.... His body Thereafter, BeCAME immortal, NO LONGER ABLE to again Die.
(And we KNOW, His soul was NOT mortal, and did not die.
And we KNOW, His spirit was NOT mortal, and did not die.)


1 Tim 6:
[15] Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; (has not yet happened)
[16] Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
* True, body’s of men have not YET been manifested IN their glorified immortal body’s.
* True, body’s of men can not approach Jesus’ Light.
* True, body’s of men have neither seen nor can see Jesus’ Light.
* True, Christ Jesus is Honor and Power everlasting.

The possibility of anyone other than God gaining immortality was only first brought to light by the Gospel message:

2 Timothy 1:10 (WEB):

(10) but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the Good News.​

True. Christ Jesus revealed Converted mortal men SHALL be risen up with IMMORTAL BODY’S.


Point being...Angels are created celestial spirit beings.
They shall never die to not exist.

Human bodys, shall die, MUST physically die.
Some human body’s shall continue to exist, and be glorified, immortal, and never again die...physically or spiritually.
Some human body’s shall be destroyed, burned, and become ash and forgotten.

 

[bbyrd009]

In revelation he is put into the lake of fire to be tortured for all eternity.

well, i would read a little deeper at “tortured” and “eternity” there, since they had a term for “forever” that is not being used.

So "alive" meaning self aware and cogent in thought and argument

ya, these are likely or at least possibly qualities of personification imo, that i would hesitate to assign to a spirit now, at least absent more evidence. You have never drank tea with a spirit, youve never witnessed a spirit mentioning that it is cold or hot, etc

It was strange God put the tree of knowledge in the garden which obviously implies access and opportunity while saying if you eat of it you will die. He could of put a fence around it and stopped access, which administrators do around dangerous buildings etc

again this assumes a literal tree, which i just now suspect is not what is being meant there; i understand it as a symbol now, although that could change too i guess; but a literal tree just forces a perspective that basically excludes us, imo.

Contemplate yourself as having eaten from the tree, and see that there was a fence, of sorts; although you may not recall when you first crucified Christ (ive heard it is possible to recall, although i havent yet, but i do recall the feeling of having "gotten over"), but you might at least recognize the spirit that was involved at the time, how it made you feel then, and maybe any guilt feelings about that now

 

[bbyrd009]

No Scripture? Of course not.

well, ive Quoted them before, but it just seems more effective when one finds them in their own study? The “of course not” spirit doesnt usually accompany us there, something like that? I mean you gotta admit that you would most likely just be resistant to any refute right now anyway right

 

[bbyrd009]

(19) All those who know you among the peoples will be astonished at you. You have become a terror, and you will exist no more

yet you earlier Quoted where he would ostensibly exist “forever,” in the lake of fire, right

It's absurd to think that God and the angels that have brought messages from God to men are not alive.

ok, well i understand that it might be absurd for you, but to put it another way none of them have heartbeats, right? So, since i do think they are very real, i might put it more like “they do not exist,” meaning that there is no “objective evidence” for them, whereas “alive” i can see blood, take a picture of them, etc.

Now this may not be 100% accurate, idk, but i have come to suspect that it is inaccurate to invest spirits with personality, feelings, etc, making them into a person, iow, “alive.” Although i assumed that for like forever myself. Of course i dont expect you to change your mind on this bc a little conversation on the web lol; its just a pov that, for me, fell by the wayside once i tried out some...more pertinent definitions.

 

[Aunty Jane]

10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:10

"If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
Rev 14:9-10

The above verses suggest torment day and night. Also anyone who receives the mark of the beast.
No mention is made of sinners who appear to be destroyed in the fire rather than tormented.

Yes, there is a 'suggestion', but when we examine the context and the original language words we can see another 'suggestion' based on Jeremiah 7:31.....that it never entered God's mind to burn children in a fire. Why would he condemn the Jews for that practice and then do it himself to his own children?

And it is interesting also that this "lake of burning sulfur" is a reference to "Gehenna" (erroneously translated "hell" in many Bibles) which Jesus referred to when he told the Pharisees of their fate. (Matthew 23:33) Gehenna to a Jew did not mean conscious suffering forever in flames, but those cast into "Gehenna" would never see life again. "Gehenna" was Jerusalem's garbage dump where the fires were kept burning day and night by the addition of sulfur (brimstone) to consume the garbage. Nothing alive was ever cast into Gehenna. Wicked Jews who died or were executed, were not considered worthy of a decent burial, and so their bodies were often cast into Gehenna for disposal. It meant not being remembered by God in the resurrection. Jews did not believe in life after death. (no immortal soul)
Resurrection was a return or restoration of life...not a continuation of it. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)

In Matthew 10:28 Jesus said....
"And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·henʹna."
Those in "gehenna" are "destroyed"...not tortured or tormented.

In order for someone to feel pain or torment, they have to be alive.....the wicked were never promised eternal life. Eternal death is the opposite of that. The gift of life is withdrawn from those who never valued it.
God has no reason or purpose in tormenting wicked souls forever.....that is just fiendish and completely contrary to his personality.

It is for the Lord to decide, I leave it up to him.

And he will no doubt....but in the meantime if we continue to attribute disrespectful and erroneous deed to this loving God, we do him a grave disservice......don't you think?

 

[Aunty Jane]

In Genesis 3:24 it says God "placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life". People assume that means it was to prevent Adam and Eve (and all their offspring) from accessing the tree of life, but it could mean that it was there to protect and keep the way to the tree of life, so that mankind could have access to it at a later time - a reassurance that all was not yet lost.

Interesting take :hmm: and it is right to a degree.....but it doesn’t fit in with what is said later. Since the Bible does not mention the trees of life again until Revelation, and God made the statement in Genesis 3:22-24....
“Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad. Now in order that he may not put his hand out and take fruit also from the tree of life and eat and live forever,” 23 With that Jehovah God expelled him from the garden of Eʹden to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken. 24 So he drove the man out, and he posted at the east of the garden of Eʹden the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning continuously to guard the way to the tree of life.”

So “guarding the way to the tree of life” was to prevent the now sinful humans from living forever....now cast out of their paradise home onto cursed ground. Imagine all the world’s worse despots or dictators and then imagine if these ones had never died?

The “trees of life” are seen along a crystal clear “river of waters of life” issuing from the throne of God...(Revelation 22:1-2) so the restoration of these trees will come from God with the establishment of his Kingdom over this earth.

 

[Jack]

well, ive Quoted them before, but it just seems more effective when one finds them in their own study? The “of course not” spirit doesnt usually accompany us there, something like that? I mean you gotta admit that you would most likely just be resistant to any refute right now anyway right

Is it too difficult to quote the Scriptures again? A Bible believing Christian would gladly repeat it.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Gods Heavenly servant WERE “created holy spirits”...with freewill., called celestial beings, ie angels.

They are spirits, they can not physically DIE!

Something that is not physically alive cannot be physically dead....but they can be taken out of existence by the one who brought them into existence....that is why they cannot be immortal....an immortal cannot die. Everlasting life is NOT the same as immortality. Angels have a form of everlasting life and humans too were to have everlasting life here on earth in their mortal flesh....that is what the "tree of life" was for in the garden. There was no prohibition on the tree of life....that only came after man's fall into sin and everlasting life was taken away from them.

By their freewill, SOME chose to stand Against God.
Because of their Choice, they were banished from their Heavenly Estate, sent DOWN to Earth.
They still exist ON Earth, unseen by Earthly men.

Yes, but not right away. Scripture tells us that the devil had access to both heaven and earth up until the time when Christ was given his authority to rule as king in "the time of the end". (Revelation 12:7-12) His demons have been active since the days of Noah when some of them materialized and cohabited with human women and filled the world of that time with violence and immorality......so much so that God expressed regret that he had ever made humankind. Jesus foretold that the final days of this world would be "just like the days of Noah"....at the time of his return. (Matthew 24:37-39)

No, Satan nor his spirit fallen angel followers will ever experience a “physical” death. They are spirits. Their “death”, Their “torture”...
Shall be them “confined” to Hell, Forever Separated FROM God, Forever Separated FROM access to the RENEWED surface of the Earth, FROM access to the RENEWED Heavens.

I find no mention of the angelic rebels in "hell".....since "hell" (hades/sheol) is a place where all dead humans go (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)....not angels.

AFTER ALL of Gods SAVED SOULS ARE removed from the face of the earth...
AFTER the bodys of all Saved souls are physically DEAD.

Thereafter, Yes God SHALL ... provoke torture and cause suffering, upon HUMAN MEN ON the face of the Earth, WHO have rejected Him...locusts released, biting insects, whereby men will TRY to physically die and CAN NOT.

What kind of a loving God is depicted there?

Who would gain anything by watching people praying for death?!! Good grief!

God has never tortured anyone. It is enough that he simply takes their life away...it will be like they never existed and neither he nor we, will remember them or their horrible deeds. (Isaiah 65:17) Why demand more?...God doesn't.

Can you show me a single scripture where it tells us that the angelic spirits are immortal?
God can "destroy" them as the scriptures say that he will.

The "lake of fire" is not a literal place where souls or spirits are tortured...because "death and hades" are also thrown into this symbolic "lake". (Revelation 20:13-14) It is a place where things are "destroyed" not tortured.

Jesus plainly says that "Gehenna" (lake of fire) is a place where God "destroys" "death and hades". What once existed, is now gone forever. For the life of me I cannot understand how this concept of "hellfire" ever came into existence since there is no mention of it in the Bible. What I see is Jesus using symbolic language about "Gehenna" and someone decided that it meant burning souls in hell....forever! There is no soul to go anywhere. The "soul" is a living breathing creature, not a disembodied spirit.

An eternal punishment for a short lifetime of sin......the punishment does not fit the crime nor is it is keeping with God's most dominant quality...."LOVE".
"Hell" (sheol/hades) to a Jew was the grave. Christianity did not change that....Christendom did.

 

[Jack]

Yes indeed, Satan has sent his messengers to persuade us that there is no everlasting fire. Satan wants our company in Hell "forever and ever". Just think of all the blood JW's will have on their hands on Judgment Day!
Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

 

[Taken]

Something that is not physically alive cannot be physically dead....but they can be taken out of existence by the one who brought them into existence....that is why they cannot be immortal....an immortal cannot die. Everlasting life is NOT the same as immortality. Angels have a form of everlasting life and humans too were to have everlasting life here on earth in their mortal flesh....that is what the "tree of life" was for in the garden. There was no prohibition on the tree of life....that only came after man's fall into sin and everlasting life was taken away from them.

Mortal / immortal applies to manKIND, not angels.
A man HAS a spirit. An angel IS a spirit.
...man can experience mortal death and spiritual death.
...angels can experience spiritual death.
...Spiritual death is any Separation from God.

 

[Taken]

Yes, but not right away. Scripture tells us that the devil had access to both heaven and earth up until the time when Christ was given his authority to rule as king in "the time of the end". (Revelation 12:7-12) His demons have been active since the days of Noah when some of them materialized and cohabited with human women and filled the world of that time with violence and immorality......so much so that God expressed regret that he had ever made humankind. Jesus foretold that the final days of this world would be "just like the days of Noah"....at the time of his return. (Matthew 24:37-39)

Regarding angels...
*Heaven(S) Highest,
Where No light escapes, Gods Throne Above the Stars.
* Heaven(S) Mid, Estate of the celestial host; holy angels estate.
* Heaven(S) Lower, air space, clouds; Both angels (holy or not) and manKind (holy or not) have access.

Satan and his demonic follower angels were cast down from their estate, (mid Heavens, that we can see “outer space” stars), to earth, but yes still have access to lower heavens, same as mankind does.

I find no mention of the angelic rebels in "hell".....since "hell" (hades/sheol) is a place where all dead humans go (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)....not angels.

Earth has “levels, chambers, divisions”, so to speak.
Shallow hole, cave, bury dead bodies,
Deeper in earth, unsaved living souls departed out of dead bodys,
Deeper in earth, bottomless pit.

 

[Taken]

What kind of a loving God is depicted there?

Who would gain anything by watching people praying for death?!! Good grief!

What KIND of God? A Just and Faithful God.
Remember FREEWILL?
Remember the tribulations, atrocities and unfathomable acts, tortures men have committed Against Believing men?
Remember Gods Promise of Vengeance on behalf of his People who remained faithful despite mens hate toward them?

Justice is men knowing ahead of time exactly what will occur for their behavior.
Faithful is God carrying out His Promise.
Truth is God forces No one to Believe in Him.
Fact is God shall exact His Vengeance upon men who Hated men for Believing In God.

God has never tortured anyone. It is enough that he simply takes their life away...it will be like they never existed and neither he nor we, will remember them or their horrible deeds. (Isaiah 65:17) Why demand more?...God doesn't.

As I said, Sure it is enough for some, God gives life, God takes away life...it is men who cause believers torments BeCAUSE they Believe, upon whom Gods shall exact His Vengeance. Not a secret.

 

[Taken]

Can you show me a single scripture where it tells us that the angelic spirits are immortal?

No. Spirits are not immortal. They don’t die, then are raised up to immortality.

Celestial spirits and terrestrial spirits are created to be eternal and made with eternal life.

Celestial beings ARE spirits and HAVE a body...they begin IN Truth...
...Freewill ... Stay IN Truth or Reject.

Terrestrials beings are a body and HAVE a spirit....they begin IN Good and can come TO Truth...Freewill...Stay IN Truth or Reject

Luke 20:
[36] Neither can they (converted men) die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

God can "destroy" them as the scriptures say that he will.

Destroy “THEM”...

The "lake of fire" is not a literal place where souls or spirits are tortured...because "death and hades" are also thrown into this symbolic "lake". (Revelation 20:13-14) It is a place where things are "destroyed" not tortured.

Disagree. Hell, by whatever name, description you favor...
A deep bottomless fire pit exists.
It was created FOR: Satan, Devils and the False Prophet.
....^ Spirits who can Never Die, eternally separated from God is their Torture, with no hope of reconciliation With God. They are continually in fire, burning, but not dying or turning to ash.
....^ It will also accept body’s of men judged damned, and the life of their souls returns to God, and also their souls go into the fire pit...No life left in them. Body’s and Souls destroyed, burned up, they forgotten.

Torture in Hell IS forever separation from God.
Torture in Hell IS Lengthy and plenty of time TO PONDER, what they once knew and enjoyed, and now experience mystery...Ever beautiful thing see, heard, smelled, tastes, touched.....VOID. Replaced with most horrid, sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touching.

 

[Taken]

Jesus plainly says that "Gehenna" (lake of fire) is a place where God "destroys" "death and hades". What once existed, is now gone forever. For the life of me I cannot understand how this concept of "hellfire" ever came into existence since there is no mention of it in the Bible. What I see is Jesus using symbolic language about "Gehenna" and someone decided that it meant burning souls in hell....forever! There is no soul to go anywhere. The "soul" is a living breathing creature, not a disembodied spirit.

Divide and Separate the facts...
* Celestial spirits never die...They have existed since BEFORE mankind.
...When they freewill choose to divide themselves from God, it is no secret to them, They WILL Live forever separated From God.

* Terrestrial men all have a body, have a soul......and must choose to have their spirit born again. That is not forced. It’s a choice.
The body’s life (blood) will die.
The soul’s life (Gods Breath) may or may not remain In the soul.
The natural spirit life of man is His Truth in his heart, that can be changed, to receive Gods Seed and Be Born again of Gods Truth...

Choices, every man can make. Choose Against God.....
NO eternally living spirit given.
Life from God (breath) returns to God....on Judgement day.
Life of body (Blood) dead...Dies whenever, risen up...on Judgement day.
......Judgement.....eternally separation from God.
No Living spirit, Gods breath returns to God, No blood in body...
Body and soul destroyed....man, soul, spirit has no life in them....
Feel nothing.

An eternal punishment for a short lifetime of sin......the punishment does not fit the crime nor is it is keeping with God's most dominant quality...."LOVE".
"Hell" (sheol/hades) to a Jew was the grave. Christianity did not change that....Christendom did.

Not eternal punishment for mankind...their choice, they knew their consequences for their choices.
Yes eternal punishment/separation for fallen angels,,,their choice; they knew their consequences for their choices.

History, Terms, Languages, Imaginations, Hades, Grave, Plot, Cave, Underworld, Abyss, Gehenna, Sheol, Hell.....

(I have no issue, saying grave, to put a dead body, and hell for departed living unsaved souls, and bottomless pit in Hell for demonic angels and Heaven for departed living saved souls, and Gods hand for departed quickened spirits of men)...fairly common in English Speaking nations.)

Not a big secret...body’s of men die and men bury men.

Not a big secret...some believe in an underworld, where unsaved living souls departed out of bodies go to wait in misery divided from God...until judgement day.

Not a big secret...some believe in a heavenly world, where saved living souls departed out of bodies go to wait in comfort with God...until judgement day.

The Imaginations were thoughts of historic men as well at men today...what is hell like, what is heaven like....best guess.

No so much changed by history, but more so changed by languages ...all languages are not the same.

For example...Gehenna, was from the name of the valley of Hinnom, a valley outside of Jerusalem. A dump or sorts. Garbage, chamber pots, where fires were constant to burn the garbage, control varmints and smell....Was also a place at one time, some men sacrificed living humans, where by the screams of those being burned alive and the stench of burning flesh (which is one of the most putrid smells)...
Gave way to the imaginations of what hell might be like.

Same for graves. Bury men in dirt to cover the stink of rotting flesh, and varmints access. Land unstable, sandy, rock...bury them in a cave.
Put a dead body on a ship, set it afire and drift it out to sea. Rack a body up off the ground, burn it...slide a dead body into a vault...too little room? Let the flesh rot and mass bury bones in Catacombs (see online videos of Catacombs under the city of Paris, France)...
Hinnom.....(see 2 Chronicles 33:6). Also can see where on old Jerusalem maps.

END.

 

[keithr]

You have never drank tea with a spirit, youve never witnessed a spirit mentioning that it is cold or hot, etc

Paul said, Hebrews 13:2 (WEB):

(2) Don’t forget to show hospitality to strangers, for in doing so, some have entertained angels without knowing it.​

 

[keithr]

A fallen angels death, is not a mortal death.
A fallen angels death, is a spiritual death, which simply means separated forever from God.

Where in the Bible does it mention people/angels being forever separated from God? Where do you get that idea from? It is not possible for you to be separated from God, except by your destruction.

Psalms 139:1-12 (WEB):

(1) For the Chief Musician. A Psalm by David. Yahweh, you have searched me, and you know me.
(2) You know my sitting down and my rising up. You perceive my thoughts from afar.
(3) You search out my path and my lying down, and are acquainted with all my ways.
(4) For there is not a word on my tongue, but, behold, Yahweh, you know it altogether.
(5) You hem me in behind and before. You laid your hand on me.
(6) This knowledge is beyond me. It’s lofty. I can’t attain it.
(7) Where could I go from your Spirit? Or where could I flee from your presence?
(8) If I ascend up into heaven, you are there. If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, you are there!
(9) If I take the wings of the dawn, and settle in the uttermost parts of the sea;
(10) Even there your hand will lead me, and your right hand will hold me.
(11) If I say, “Surely the darkness will overwhelm me; the light around me will be night;”
(12) even the darkness doesn’t hide from you, but the night shines as the day. The darkness is like light to you.​

1 Tim 6:16 was speaking of; JESUS, WHO:

The single sentence is 1 Timothy 6:13-16 (WEB):

(13) I command you before God, who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate testified the good confession,
(14) that you keep the commandment without spot, blameless, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ;
(15) which in its own times he will show, who is the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
(16) who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and eternal power. Amen.​

It is a bit ambiguous as to who the "who alone" is referring to. God is the initial subject of the sentence, so I believe it it referring to God. If, however, it is referring to Jesus, then it means that apart from God only Jesus currently has immortality - the resurrected Church will be given immortality later. Either way, whether it is God or whether it is Jesus who only has immortality, it means that the angels do not have immortality.

(We know was NOT a human out of Dust.
We know God prepared Him a body in the Likeness as a human man.
We know His body had Flesh, as a human man also has flesh.
......but His Flesh was without sin...NOT human flesh.
We know His body had BLOOD, as a human also has blood.
.....but His Blood was pure without sin...NOT human blood.
We know His body was Prepared, to be given to become MADE DEAD.
.... His body Was MADE DEAD.
We know His body was Resurrected up from the DEAD.
.... His body Thereafter, BeCAME immortal, NO LONGER ABLE to again Die.
(And we KNOW, His soul was NOT mortal, and did not die.
And we KNOW, His spirit was NOT mortal, and did not die.)

In which case Jesus could not have provided the redemption price for mankind and we are all lost.

Point being...Angels are created celestial spirit beings.
They shall never die to not exist.

I have quoted two places where it implies that Satan shall die. Ezekiel 28:13-19 states that Satan, the "anointed cherub who covers", will cease to exist:

(13) You were in Eden, the garden of God. Every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz, emerald, chrysolite, onyx, jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and beryl. Gold work of tambourines and of pipes was in you. They were prepared in the day that you were created.
(14) You were the anointed cherub who covers. Then I set you up on the holy mountain of God. You have walked up and down in the middle of the stones of fire.
(15) You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you.
(16) By the abundance of your commerce, your insides were filled with violence, and you have sinned. Therefore I have cast you as profane out of God’s mountain. I have destroyed you, covering cherub, from the middle of the stones of fire.
(17) Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty. You have corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor. I have cast you to the ground. I have laid you before kings, that they may see you.
(18) By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your commerce, you have profaned your sanctuaries. Therefore I have brought out a fire from the middle of you. It has devoured you. I have turned you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all those who see you.
(19) All those who know you among the peoples will be astonished at you. You have become a terror, and you will exist no more.”’”​

Human bodys, shall die, MUST physically die.

That's not what God thinks - Genesis 3:22 (WEB):

(22) Yahweh God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand, and also take of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever—”​

Some human body’s shall continue to exist, and be glorified, immortal, and never again die...physically or spiritually.

The Bible doesn't say that. No human being can have immortality, though they can live forever. To become immortal we must be changed to be like Jesus now is - to have the same divine nature as God!

 

[keithr]

yet you earlier Quoted where he would ostensibly exist “forever,” in the lake of fire, right

I also earlier pointed out that the lake of fire and sulphur is symbolic of utter detruction. Nothing exists after it has been symbolically thrown into it.

What would be the point of Satan and demons/fallen angels being thrown into a literal lake of fire? They are spirit beings so fire has no affect on them.

ok, well i understand that it might be absurd for you, but to put it another way none of them have heartbeats, right? So, since i do think they are very real, i might put it more like “they do not exist,” meaning that there is no “objective evidence” for them, whereas “alive” i can see blood, take a picture of them, etc.

By that logic you must think that God does not exist. Are you sure you are a Christian? Or are you just using terms that makes no sense to anybody else? In which case you are just confusing yourself and others; like a a wolf in sheeps clothing.

 

[bbyrd009]

Is it too difficult to quote the Scriptures again? A Bible believing Christian would gladly repeat it.

Samuel (accepted) tells King Saul (rejected) “you and your sons will be here with me”
all go to the same place.
no one has ever gone up to heaven…
there is only One Immortal
he who seeks to save his soul will lose it
and that Gehenna is xlated as “hel” in the first place, when Gehenna is on earth; surely an import by anglo-saxon scribes, who just had no better word, “hell was imported into the Bible by anglo-saxon scribes” should do for a search there, although like any web-search its prolly 90% junk

 

[bbyrd009]

Paul said, Hebrews 13:2 (WEB):

(2) Don’t forget to show hospitality to strangers, for in doing so, some have entertained angels without knowing it.​

to that i would say that most anyone could be possessed of a spirit messenger i think, sure

 

[bbyrd009]

By that logic you must think that God does not exist.

since existence implies objective evidence, how could He?

Are you sure you are a Christian? Or are you just using terms that makes no sense to anybody else? In which case you are just confusing yourself and others; like a a wolf in sheeps clothing.

ha well depends upon how one defines Christian i guess eh? I would say that Yah causes to exist, and that “existence” is a poor metric for spirit, as the “wind” analogy was maybe illustrating? Even if we know what the wind is made of now

we seem to be in an age where we insist upon “existence” as the chief measure of reality, but “existence” gets us to about 5% of everything that our maths tells us must be “real.” “Exist” is a science word, not that i have anything against science, at least its gotten us to 5%