What Are we Getting Saved From?

[Jack]

That's who I and Jehovah's Witnesses pay attention to, and also Jehovah.

If you don't believe in eternal punishment then you cannot believe in eternal life either. It's the EXACT same Greek Word.
Matthew 25
46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

 

[quietthinker]

If you don't believe in eternal punishment then you cannot believe in eternal life either. It's the EXACT same Greek Word.
Matthew 25
46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Out of interest Jack, 'punishment' is reference to the lack of life as opposed to life everlasting. These are the two polar opposites.
The scripture is not referencing eternal life in conscious torment and eternal life in relational joy.
....and just to reiterate, the poles are Life & and no life aka as Death.

 

[Jack]

Out of interest Jack, 'punishment' is reference to the lack of life as opposed to life everlasting. These are the two polar opposites.
The scripture is not referencing eternal life in conscious torment and eternal life in relational joy.
....and just to reiterate, the poles are Life & and no life aka as Death.

"Death" NEVER means "cease to exist" in the Bible. Even though one poor soul here said that Jesus "ceased to exist" for three days. Jesus clearly warned us of the eternal fire known as Hell fire.

 

[WalkInLight]

"Salvation" is a common topic among professed Christians, but the whole idea of it has been warped and twisted into something that has no bearing on why God created humans to live on this earth in the first place.

If you pull everything together under a "big picture", all of the diverse ideas melt away into nonsense, and a clear and logical picture emerges.

So first of all, why do we need saving?....and what are we getting saved from?

Understanding why God put us here on this earth, is the first place to start getting answers to those questions.
What did he tell the first humans as to their role here?

Genesis 2:4-9....
"This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven. 5 Now no shrub of the field was yet on the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the Lord God had not sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground. 6 But a mist used to rise from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground. 7 Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living person. 8 The Lord God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed. 9 Out of the ground the Lord God caused every tree to grow that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." (NASB)

Read that carefully and tell us why God put mankind on this earth in the first place.....

More to come later....this topic will be addressed in logical stages....always from God's word.

Salvation is the conclusion of love bringing life to a dead soul.

The phrase to be saved from implies what we have is of value which is endangered so needs saving.

Salvation is the beginning of life from a dead and dying world. C S Lewis described life like a ghost, which in Christ becomes more real and eternal

 

[quietthinker]

"Death" NEVER means "cease to exist" in the Bible. Even though one poor soul here said that Jesus "ceased to exist" for three days. Jesus clearly warned us of the eternal fire known as Hell fire.

Adam didn't exist prior to be created Jack. Life was given him and it would be forfeited if he ate of the forbidden fruit. That is what God told him plainly.
It was the serpent who spun the lie that they would not die but become as God. 'Die', even for a numbo means you no longer are alive.

 

[Jack]

Adam didn't exist prior to be created Jack. Life was given him and it would be forfeited if he ate of the forbidden fruit. That is what God told him plainly.
It was the serpent who spun the lie that they would not die but become as God. 'Die', even for a numbo means you no longer are alive.

Death does not mean "cease to exist".

 

[quietthinker]

Death does not mean "cease to exist".

denying the obvious sets one up to swallow any clever operators spin.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Salvation is the conclusion of love bringing life to a dead soul.

Can you elaborate on that?

The phrase to be saved from implies what we have is of value which is endangered so needs saving.

What is in danger.....and where does the danger come from? Why do we need to be saved in the first place?

Salvation is the beginning of life from a dead and dying world. C S Lewis described life like a ghost, which in Christ becomes more real and eternal

That is an odd thing to say....”like a ghost?”
Salvation is getting saved from something that will threaten the lives of many people on earth in the very near future....can you tell me what you believe it is?

 

[WalkInLight]

Can you elaborate on that?


What is in danger.....and where does the danger come from? Why do we need to be save in the first place?


That is an odd thing to say....”like a ghost?”
Salvation is getting saved from something that will threaten the lives of many people on earth in the very near future....can you tell me what you believe it is?

Building our house upon the rock by putting the sermon on the mount into action.
The answer to your question, is founded upon spiritual experience of following Jesus.

Salvation is accepting and knowing Jesus. I can write reams of detail, but for most this is just theory.
What is a marriage? It is the life mixing of two people, bonded by a marriage contract.

Salvation is paddling up stream with Jesus, while the lost flow on by over the waterfall.

C S Lewis was trying to picture as lost people we have the hints of life, the flows of love, the principles
of integrity and patience, but not its integrated whole. In Jesus everything knits together to form a
solid whole that grows and works into eternity. Without Jesus the shocks of life shatter us, and we become
fallen buildings along the way with things running wild without restraint.

I have seen people pass away with Jesus in their heart at peace, and others cursing and railing against the
lost opportunities they had and how their life was wrecked by others, never pausing to take in the blessing
and opportunities they had all around them. Jesus brings us life, eternal life, the world - lostness and
destruction.

God bless you

 

[keithr]

well, i dont think the original said “forever and ever” as they had a term for that, that is not used here, looks more like from eternity to eternity to me, which i guess to most believers that means the same thing anyway, even if it doesnt
well, not seeing that either wadr as from eternity to eternity suggests duration?

I don't think the "forever" was ever under discussion. We were discussing what it is that is forever - death for eternity, or torture for eternity.

What does "wadr" mean? :

but the devil is not alive though eh. Hence why one should have their own interpretation here imo, as mine would not serve them much until this belief is superseded

Where in the Bible does it say that the devil/Satan is not alive? It says (in Revelation 20) that he will be bound up for the thousand years of the reign of Christ and the resurrected Church. That hasn't happened yet, so the devil is still alive now, and will be until a short while after the end of that thousand year reign.

 

[keithr]

Death does not mean "cease to exist".

Matthew 10:28 (WEB):

(28) Don’t be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.​

The Greek word that is here translated as "destroy" is apollumi, which Strong's Concordance says means "to destroy fully". Anything that is fully destroyed no longer exists - it has perished. So in this verse Jesus is saying that people may kill your human body, but that is not our end - some part of us survives in a dormant state which God can bring back to life and give it a new body. But we should fear God, because he can choose to fully destroy both our body and our soul, so that we would then cease to exist. After God has brought everyone back to life again in the resurrection, if the final judgement is that a person is not worthy of eternal life, then the punishment is death - the second death, which is utter destruction - that person would perish.

The second death is permanent; there will not be another resurrection to life. Hebrews 10:26-27 (WEB):

(26) For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins,
(27) but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which will devour the adversaries.​

If you are devoured, then you will no longer exist.

But there is good news:

John 3:16 (WEB):

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.​

 

[bbyrd009]

Are you another self professed Greek expert JW?
So people who believe our English translations are going to Hell? Or where? Even the NWT agrees "they will be tormented day and night FOREVER and EVER".

well, im not sure what to say here jack, im not a JW, and i guess everyone starts there, except for them? Dunno. Anyway, they had a term for “forever” that is not being used there, so while i def dont know, i suggest that a different sense is being implied there, besides the fact that it discusses certain evil spirits, and not people, being “examined from eternity to eternity”

But notice how JWs seem to have all made up their minds about this stuff? They know everything, iow? And you maybe see how you are just as adamant about knowing something else, the opposite, i guess? I havent been following it tbh. Anyway, it is this pov that you might…examine at some point, with the understanding that we generally find what describes us in the Bible, me included :)

Bc it is just as easy to find Scriptural “facts” that directly contradict a pov as it is to find them for the pov, which is why i suspect JWs—or any other offshoot of Christianity that has beliefs about the future, i guess—get any traction at all (or should i say “got?”) But anyway, you can even make a game out of it, believe it or not; just enter in the opposite of any “factual” statement into a Bible engine, and voila.

So i guess that wont be so useful right now, while youre still committed to verifying your beliefs about the future, in the face of someone else’s Scriptural facts about it that apparently contradict, but maybe when youre all done with that and looking for a way forward it will come to mind

Bc i gotta tell ya Jack, i really have no interest in your beliefs about the future, and i dont think that is what the Bible is about anyway; whatever you believe right now is just fine, imo

 

[bbyrd009]

I don't think the "forever" was ever under discussion. We were discussing what it is that is forever - death for eternity, or torture for eternity

yes, ok, so iow “which one of these mangled concepts that the orig manuscript (definitely, likely) prolly (maybe, possibly) does not support should i believe?”

What does "wadr" mean?

with all due respect, sorry

Where in the Bible does it say that the devil/Satan is not alive? It says (in Revelation 20) that he will be bound up for the thousand years of the reign of Christ and the resurrected Church. That hasn't happened yet, so the devil is still alive now, and will be until a short while after the end of that thousand year reign

he said, with complete confidence? So look keith, if you have made up your mind, what does it serve me to suggest a diff understanding? We would only be arguing then, right? I just happen to define “alive” differently than you, i guess, and i am not too inclined to persuade you away from your established knowing there, which i doubt would be possible anyway, right, at least right now?

But i would ask, at “That hasn't happened yet…,” how do you know that, for sure? I ask bc it sounds like looking for a kingdom that comes by observation, at least to me. Anyway fwiw i suggest that in the right context,”The Revelation of Christ,” that it maybe happens every day, keith, although idk

 

[Jack]

Matthew 10:28 (WEB):

(28) Don’t be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.​

The Greek word that is here translated as "destroy" is apollumi, which Strong's Concordance says means "to destroy fully". Anything that is fully destroyed no longer exists - it has perished. So in this verse Jesus is saying that people may kill your human body, but that is not our end - some part of us survives in a dormant state which God can bring back to life and give it a new body. But we should fear God, because he can choose to fully destroy both our body and our soul, so that we would then cease to exist. After God has brought everyone back to life again in the resurrection, if the final judgement is that a person is not worthy of eternal life, then the punishment is death - the second death, which is utter destruction - that person would perish.

The second death is permanent; there will not be another resurrection to life. Hebrews 10:26-27 (WEB):

(26) For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins,
(27) but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which will devour the adversaries.​

If you are devoured, then you will no longer exist.

But there is good news:

John 3:16 (WEB):

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.​

What makes JW's think they are qualified to rewrite our Bible?

 

[Jack]

well, im not sure what to say here jack, im not a JW, and i guess everyone starts there, except for them? Dunno. Anyway, they had a term for “forever” that is not being used there, so while i def dont know, i suggest that a different sense is being implied there, besides the fact that it discusses certain evil spirits, and not people, being “examined from eternity to eternity”

Lost people will suffer the same place of "everlasting fire" with Satan and his evil army.
Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

But notice how JWs seem to have all made up their minds about this stuff? They know everything, iow? And you maybe see how you are just as adamant about knowing something else, the opposite, i guess? I havent been following it tbh. Anyway, it is this pov that you might…examine at some point, with the understanding that we generally find what describes us in the Bible, me included :)

Bc it is just as easy to find Scriptural “facts” that directly contradict a pov as it is to find them for the pov, which is why i suspect JWs—or any other offshoot of Christianity that has beliefs about the future, i guess—get any traction at all (or should i say “got?”) But anyway, you can even make a game out of it, believe it or not; just enter in the opposite of any “factual” statement into a Bible engine, and voila.

So i guess that wont be so useful right now, while youre still committed to verifying your beliefs about the future, in the face of someone else’s Scriptural facts about it that apparently contradict, but maybe when youre all done with that and looking for a way forward it will come to mind

Bc i gotta tell ya Jack, i really have no interest in your beliefs about the future, and i dont think that is what the Bible is about anyway; whatever you believe right now is just fine, imo

You're not interested in where you will spend eternity?

 

[bbyrd009]

Lost people will suffer the same place of "everlasting fire" with Satan and his evil army.

so go with that if you like Jack
and nevermind the many other Scriptures that tell a diff story, ok with me

You're not interested in where you will spend eternity?

gasp i know right, someone who genuinely gives no thought for the morrow, whatever will we do with this obvious heretic lol.

i understand that you seek to save your soul, and hope to become an immortal after you die, Jack, and i honestly wish you the best of luck with that ok. yes, im interested, pls tell me what you know

 

[Jack]

so go with that if you like Jack
and nevermind the many other Scriptures that tell a diff story, ok with me

gasp i know right, someone who genuinely gives no thought for the morrow, whatever will we do with this obvious heretic lol.

i understand that you seek to save your soul, and hope to become an immortal after you die, Jack, and i honestly wish you the best of luck with that ok. yes, im interested, pls tell me what you know

So why don't you quote them? Do you need permission from Kingdom Hall?

 

[keithr]

What makes JW's think they are qualified to rewrite our Bible?

I don't know. Why don't you ask one. Why is everyone here assuming that everyone else who has a different understanding of Scripture to them must be a JW? I'm not a JW either!

 

[WalkInLight]

so go with that if you like Jack
and nevermind the many other Scriptures that tell a diff story, ok with me

gasp i know right, someone who genuinely gives no thought for the morrow, whatever will we do with this obvious heretic lol.

i understand that you seek to save your soul, and hope to become an immortal after you die, Jack, and i honestly wish you the best of luck with that ok. yes, im interested, pls tell me what you know

I like your style but rather dry humour.

Over the years I realised for the middle classes who went to church were everything was restrained and hidden emotionally,
pie in the sky when you die was everything. I grew up in this kind of society, where peoples feelings were all hidden in their
large lonely houses and nothing was ever allowed out or expressed in case the horrible emotions spilled out and the arguments
became too heated. No much better just say the minimum and pretend its all working fine.

You then meet the poor, who have nothing to lose, who often are desperate and they will rant, shout and fight, because no one
has a hold on the other. On the other end, so much money, you can choose what you do, but it all feels empty, so you look for
motivation and emotional reality.

Jesus walks among all the groups, sees the truth and speaks from His heart, leading by example, being truly authentic.
Those who walk this way, as best they can in Christ, are not shaken or overthrown, they just walk on.
The concept of being in hell, in the future after judgement is no longer the issue. People in the world are living in hell, torn
by raging feelings, pretending and hiding, trying to cope while laughing at the meaninglessness of finding a foundation.
The blind love pie in the sky when you die, because nothing needs to change today, it is just being in the right members club.

I have to say, one problem with open emotional hearts, is when people find they need companionship, which is not fulfilled in
their current social group. Falling in love with another is an obvious deep motivator in awakening, which can override other
blocks. In families we are close and can set boundaries so these feelings have a place and when understood be put appropriately
in place. This is discipleship, learning to walk with Jesus, feeling and empathising and walking alongside others.

God bless you

 

[WalkInLight]

I don't know. Why don't you ask one. Why is everyone here assuming that everyone else who has a different understanding of Scripture to them must be a JW? I'm not a JW either!

Windup time...lol