What Are we Getting Saved From?

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keithr

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yes, ok, so iow “which one of these mangled concepts that the orig manuscript (definitely, likely) prolly (maybe, possibly) does not support should i believe?”
Why don't you write in English instead of acronyms, abbreviations and slang. You're not communicating very clearly. ("iow" should be "in other words" (?), "orig" should be "original", "prolly" is not a proper English word - it should be "probably", "i" should be "I", etc.).

You should not believe any "concept" or interpretation of Scripture that the original manuscript does not support, and don't take verses in isolation but use other verses to help understand the intended meaning. God is the author of the Bible so it will all be in harmony and agreement if you have the correct understanding.

2 Timothy 3:16 (WEB):
(16) Every Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness,​

he said, with complete confidence?
Yes, I am confident that the 1,000 years reign of Christ has not started let alone finished yet. That confidence is based on what the Sciptures say and my observations of what's going on in the world!

So look keith, if you have made up your mind, what does it serve me to suggest a diff understanding? We would only be arguing then, right?
Well you did suggest a different understanding, and so we are discussing it. This is a Bible study discussion forum, so it is quite reasonable that we should discuss what we think the Bible reveals. If you don't want to discuss it then don't post anything! Any argument should be respectful, with the aim to help others understand the Bible better, which is what we all want. :pfite:

I just happen to define “alive” differently than you, i guess, and i am not too inclined to persuade you away from your established knowing there, which i doubt would be possible anyway, right, at least right now?
I don't know whether or not you could persuade me to believe what you believe, as you haven't told me what you believe! For me, any definition of being alive (for humans and spirit beings) would need to include having conscious thoughts and memories.

But i would ask, at “That hasn't happened yet…,” how do you know that, for sure?
The Bible tells us that before the 1,000 year reign of Christ, that all living Christians will be raptured (snatched away), to be with the resurrected Christians and with Jesus in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17) - that hasn't happened yet. Jesus and his Church have not been ruling the world for a thousand years - that hasn't happened, or even started yet. At the end of the 1,000 year reign all humans on the earth wil be judged whether or not they are worthy of eternal life; those that are not will suffer death again, everyone else will never die - people are still dying, so that hasn't happened yet. Satan will be destroyed just before that. It hasn't happened yet!
 
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bbyrd009

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The Bible tells us that before the 1,000 year reign of Christ, that all living Christians will be raptured (snatched away), to be with the resurrected Christians and with Jesus in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17) - that hasn't happened yet. Jesus and his Church have not been ruling the world for a thousand years - that hasn't happened, or even started yet. At the end of the 1,000 year reign all humans on the earth wil be judged whether or not they are worthy of eternal life; those that are not will suffer death again, everyone else will never die - people are still dying, so that hasn't happened yet. Satan will be destroyed just before that. It hasn't happened yet!
ok so might be better for us to pick this up after you have observed one of those things occurring, eh. Tomorrow maybe, right? Who knows :)
 

Aunty Jane

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I don't know. Why don't you ask one. Why is everyone here assuming that everyone else who has a different understanding of Scripture to them must be a JW? I'm not a JW either!
Closed minded people are nothing new....Jesus dealt with them on a daily basis.....sadly closed minds can lead to closed hearts, and they are the ones who need the ‘dust shaken off’ ....like talking to a brick wall....no point in arguing with someone who has no argument....it’s all just prejudice and hatred.

I asked him several times to submit his evidence that we “rewrite the Bible” but as of this moment, the silence is deafening. :ummm:
 

face2face

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Closed minded people are nothing new....Jesus dealt with them on a daily basis.....sadly closed minds can lead to closed hearts, and they are the ones who need the ‘dust shaken off’ ....like talking to a brick wall....no point in arguing with someone who has no argument....it’s all just prejudice and hatred.

I asked him several times to submit his evidence that we “rewrite the Bible” but as of this moment, the silence is deafening. :ummm:
Well, lol - you do and have done many times! It's a little ironic dont you think Jane talking about closed minds and hearts when you have cut natural Israel off from their own promises?

Romans 11:8 cmp Romans 11:25

I've asked Keithr if he can see it but you know how it goes - ignore whole sections to support your error on 144,000.

Best you look closer to home for those Jesus dealt with on a daily basis. :waves:

You suffer from a willing ignorance of the mystery!

Can't help that...
 

keithr

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ok so might be better for us to pick this up after you have observed one of those things occurring, eh. Tomorrow maybe, right? Who knows :)
That will be too late for you, because if you think the devil is dead then you won't be taking notice of Peter's admonition -1 Peter 5:8-9 (WEB):

(8) Be sober and self-controlled. Be watchful. Your adversary, the devil, walks around like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.
(9) Withstand him steadfast in your faith, knowing that your brothers who are in the world are undergoing the same sufferings.​
 

Taken

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What Are we Getting Saved From?
OP^

Suffering Gods Anger, Tribulation, Jealously, Wrath and Damnation and Eternal separation from the Lord God Almighty.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

bbyrd009

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That will be too late for you, because if you think the devil is dead then you won't be taking notice of Peter's admonition -1 Peter 5:8-9 (WEB):

(8) Be sober and self-controlled. Be watchful. Your adversary, the devil, walks around like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.
(9) Withstand him steadfast in your faith, knowing that your brothers who are in the world are undergoing the same sufferings.​
i didnt say the devil was dead, but ty anyway
 

bbyrd009

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What does "ty" mean?
you are kidding, right

That certainly seems like you said the devil was dead
well if its any consolation i still hear pretty much the same way i guess lol
i said “he is not alive” although i would qualify even that as a presumption, based upon the evidence, but we might just be having a semantics discussion here, about the def of “alive,” too. dunno.
Anyway, im not finding any Scriptural evidence for “satan alive” such as “satan will die” or anything similar, so assuming you are alive, i might ask what your definition of “alive” is? Iow the wind goes wherever it likes, so is it alive, too, iyo? Might sound a bit silly but apparently some would say “yes”

but since i dont expect this to go much of anywhere ill say that imo it is dangerous to assume that spirits have life, at least without some kind of justification. Yes, they are anthropomorphized in Scripture to illustrate action or effect or whatever, but that does not mean that Yah has a literal “hand” or face or whatever, as is even discussed in other places
 
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WalkInLight

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you are kidding, right

well if its any consolation i still hear pretty much the same way i guess lol
i said “he is not alive” although i would qualify even that as a presumption, based upon the evidence, but we might just be having a semantics discussion here, about the def of “alive,” too. dunno.
Anyway, im not finding any Scriptural evidence for “satan alive” such as “satan will die” or anything similar, so assuming you are alive, i might ask what your definition of “alive” is? Iow the wind goes wherever it likes, so is it alive, too, iyo? Might sound a bit silly but apparently some would say “yes”

but since i dont expect this to go much of anywhere ill say that imo it is dangerous to assume that spirits have life, at least without some kind of justification. Yes, they are anthropomorphized in Scripture to illustrate action or effect or whatever, but that does not mean that Yah has a literal “hand” or face or whatever, as is even discussed in other places
Satan is a fallen angel, he spoke with the Father in Job.
In revelation he is put into the lake of fire to be tortured for all eternity. So "alive" meaning self aware and cogent in thought and argument.
As the snake in the garden of eden he uses logic to suggest Adam and Eve will not die after eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which Eve assumes is true, but she has no way of knowing that satan is lying, as she has no knowledge of good and evil.

There are many paradoxs in the story of Adam and Eve. They were not eternal, but they were naked and did not have a moral outlook other than they could talk with God. It was strange God put the tree of knowledge in the garden which obviously implies access and opportunity while saying if you eat of it you will die. He could of put a fence around it and stopped access, which administrators do around dangerous buildings etc. So in a state of not knowing what is wrong they knew the downside of the fruit is death but the upside is of being like God himself. The story concludes with God admitting that the ability to choose morality means if man obtains immortality this is a problem.

In the garden of eden the problem for salvation is solving death and gaining eternal life. In revelation access to the tree of life is given to those who have been washed by the lamb. So one could say eternity begins with the approval of the Father, who grants access to the means of continual sustenance.

God bless you
 

Jack

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I don't know. Why don't you ask one. Why is everyone here assuming that everyone else who has a different understanding of Scripture to them must be a JW? I'm not a JW either!
You don't know? I do. They trust the WatchTower more than they believe God of the Bible.
 

Aunty Jane

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Satan is a fallen angel, he spoke with the Father in Job.
In revelation he is put into the lake of fire to be tortured for all eternity. So "alive" meaning self aware and cogent in thought and argument.
Did you know that there was NO torture involved in any penalty for breaking God's laws in Israel? There were not even any prisons. God dealt with his people in a just way...there were capital crimes for which the death penalty was administered (all clearly outlined in God's law, so there was no excuse that could be offered). If you took someone's life willfully, you had to pay with your own. But even if you did so accidentally, then there was still a penalty to pay. There were the cities of refuge where one could flee to avoid being put to death for manslaughter. There was no incarceration as such, but the person who took a life accidentally could find safety there in one of those cities, until the death of the High Priest, after which he was free to return to his home.
Other crimes committed like theft had a compensation system. The thief had to pay back more than he stole. It was a great system.

The devil will be consigned to the "lake of fire" which is called "the second death".....there is no conscious torture there...only eternal death.
God has no need to torture anyone, and in order to suffer eternally, one would have to have eternal life....God grants eternal life only to the righteous, not the wicked.

If God were to fiendishly torture 'souls' in eternal flames, then he makes himself like the ones he has condemned to be punished.

God showed the faithless Israelites who sacrificed their children in the fire to Molech, what he thought of the practice....
"They have built the high places of Toʹpheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’"
It never entered God's mind or heart to do such a thing.

As the snake in the garden of eden he uses logic to suggest Adam and Eve will not die after eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which Eve assumes is true, but she has no way of knowing that satan is lying, as she has no knowledge of good and evil.
It was a test of their obedience, not their knowledge. The reason shouldn't have mattered.
The TKGE represented God's sovereign right to set the limits of their freedom. He made those limits clear.

There are many paradoxs in the story of Adam and Eve. They were not eternal, but they were naked and did not have a moral outlook other than they could talk with God.
They were created mortal like all of God's earthly 'souls'...but this did not mean that they HAD to die...only that they COULD if they disobeyed their God. There was only one very reasonable command....and they had no sin nature to corrupt their thinking. So there was no excuse for their disobedience even though they blamed everyone for their actions except themselves.

They had a rebel spirit who was placed in a guardianship position who had envied the worship that the humans would give to God. He abused his free will and was now wanting to use that same abuse to separate the humans from God.....it was the only way that he could be their god and ruler.

It was strange God put the tree of knowledge in the garden which obviously implies access and opportunity while saying if you eat of it you will die. He could of put a fence around it and stopped access, which administrators do around dangerous buildings etc. So in a state of not knowing what is wrong they knew the downside of the fruit is death but the upside is of being like God himself. The story concludes with God admitting that the ability to choose morality means if man obtains immortality this is a problem.
I have a very different take on that why "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" was there in the garden.

Everything in God's creation was created in perfect balance.....all things have an equal opposite, and we see these in our everyday life.....in...out, up...down, forward...backwards, for...against, happy...sad, full...empty etc. The only opposite that God wanted to withhold from his human children was the opposite of good.

With the degree of good that he would give his children, God needed to make sure that the opposite degree of evil would never come into the world to spoil the life he planned for them....but being made in God's image, he had also given his children free will, which meant that he could not keep it from them by force, they had to choose not to know it by obediently following God's instructions. To help them make the right choice, he put a very stiff penalty on taking something that the Creator had placed in his own jurisdiction. It was his exclusive property. It wasn't that they needed to know evil to carry on with life, but the devil made it seem as if it was vital to know what God knows, and that he was somehow holding back something that would be of benefit to them.....and he called God a liar saying that they would not die if they ate the fruit....was he? God allowed them to see where their uninhibited free will would take them.

After consuming the fruit, both became aware that they were naked, whereas it didn't cross their minds before. What had a knowledge of good and evil done to them? For the first time they felt shame. Sin was now invading both their minds and bodies. God evicted them both from the garden and out into the untamed world outside. The ground was cursed so that it yielded very little for all their hard work. Instead of the lush fruit of endless variety God had provided for them, now they would have to till the ground and "eat bread" until they died and the dust from which they were made, reclaimed them...."for dust you are and to dust you will return" Adam was told.
The way to "the tree of life" which was their only means to live forever, was barred indefinitely. (Genesis 3:20-2-24)

In the garden of eden the problem for salvation is solving death and gaining eternal life. In revelation access to the tree of life is given to those who have been washed by the lamb. So one could say eternity begins with the approval of the Father, who grants access to the means of continual sustenance.
Indeed, but there are qualifications needed to have access to the trees of life again. God requires the same of us as he did for Adam and his wife....complete obedience to the commands of the Creator.
What we lost in Eden, Jesus paid with his life to give back to us.

What God starts...he finishes. (Isaiah 55:11)
 

Taken

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Did you know that there was NO torture involved in any penalty for breaking God's laws in Israel?

The devil will be consigned to the "lake of fire" which is called "the second death".....there is no conscious torture there...only eternal death.

God has no need to torture anyone, and in order to suffer eternally, one would have to have eternal life....God grants eternal life only to the righteous, not the wicked.

Gods Heavenly servant WERE “created holy spirits”...with freewill., called celestial beings, ie angels.

They are spirits, they can not physically DIE!
By their freewill, SOME chose to stand Against God.
Because of their Choice, they were banished from their Heavenly Estate, sent DOWN to Earth.
They still exist ON Earth, unseen by Earthly men.

No, Satan nor his spirit fallen angel followers will ever experience a “physical” death. They are spirits. Their “death”, Their “torture”...
Shall be them “confined” to Hell, Forever Separated FROM God, Forever Separated FROM access to the RENEWED surface of the Earth, FROM access to the RENEWED Heavens.

AFTER ALL of Gods SAVED SOULS ARE removed from the face of the earth...
AFTER the bodys of all Saved souls are physically DEAD.

Thereafter, Yes God SHALL ... provoke torture and cause suffering, upon HUMAN MEN ON the face of the Earth, WHO have rejected Him...locusts released, biting insects, whereby men will TRY to physically die and CAN NOT.
 

Taken

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Why don't you write in English instead of acronyms, abbreviations and slang.

Agree. I don’t have a problem with misspelled words or upper or lower case writing. But the pretense as if everyone speaks according to a made up urban dictionary is too far out presumptuous for me, especially regarding a Spiritual discussion.

I don't know whether or not you could persuade me to believe what you believe, as you haven't told me what you believe!

Agree. Have seen many of his posts and have only concluded his belief is buried in some cryptic code and I haven’t had a Cereal box decoder ring for eons.


The Bible tells us that before the 1,000 year reign of Christ, that all living Christians will be raptured (snatched away), to be with the resurrected Christians and with Jesus in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17) - that hasn't happened yet. Jesus and his Church have not been ruling the world for a thousand years - that hasn't happened, or even started yet. At the end of the 1,000 year reign all humans on the earth wil be judged whether or not they are worthy of eternal life; those that are not will suffer death again, everyone else will never die - people are still dying, so that hasn't happened yet.

Agree.

Satan will be destroyed just before that. It hasn't happened yet!

Disagree. Satan is a spirit, not subject to destruction, but is subject to eternal separation.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

keithr

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The way to "the tree of life" which was their only means to live forever, was barred indefinitely. (Genesis 3:20-2-24)
In Genesis 3:24 it says God "placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life". People assume that means it was to prevent Adam and Eve (and all their offspring) from accessing the tree of life, but it could mean that it was there to protect and keep the way to the tree of life, so that mankind could have access to it at a later time - a reassurance that all was not yet lost.
 

keithr

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you are kidding, right
No. I speak and understand English (I am English). Your abbreviations, acronyms, or whatever, are not part of the English language, and so I don't understand it.

Anyway, im not finding any Scriptural evidence for “satan alive” such as “satan will die” or anything similar, so assuming you are alive, i might ask what your definition of “alive” is? Iow the wind goes wherever it likes, so is it alive, too, iyo? Might sound a bit silly but apparently some would say “yes”
Yes, that sounds silly. The sound made from something moving does not imply that whatever is moving must be alive. You don't need to be a genius to understand that, it's just common sense.

As for evidence that Satan will die, I've already quoted Hebrew 2:14 (KJV):

(14) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;​

and Ezekiel 28:13-19 (WEB):

(13) You were in Eden, the garden of God. Every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz, emerald, chrysolite, onyx, jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and beryl. Gold work of tambourines and of pipes was in you. They were prepared in the day that you were created.
(14) You were the anointed cherub who covers. Then I set you up on the holy mountain of God. You have walked up and down in the middle of the stones of fire.
(15) You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you.
(16) By the abundance of your commerce, your insides were filled with violence, and you have sinned. Therefore I have cast you as profane out of God’s mountain. I have destroyed you, covering cherub, from the middle of the stones of fire.
(17) Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty. You have corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor. I have cast you to the ground. I have laid you before kings, that they may see you.
(18) By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your commerce, you have profaned your sanctuaries. Therefore I have brought out a fire from the middle of you. It has devoured you. I have turned you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all those who see you.
(19) All those who know you among the peoples will be astonished at you. You have become a terror, and you will exist no more.”’”​


but since i dont expect this to go much of anywhere ill say that imo it is dangerous to assume that spirits have life, at least without some kind of justification. Yes, they are anthropomorphized in Scripture to illustrate action or effect or whatever, but that does not mean that Yah has a literal “hand” or face or whatever, as is even discussed in other places
In John 4:24 (KJV) Jesus says:

(24) God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.​

Therefore I'd say it is safe to say that spirits have life. It's absurd to think that God and the angels that have brought messages from God to men are not alive.
 
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keithr

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They are spirits, they can not physically DIE!
They are not physical beings, so obviously they can't have a physical death, but they can die. As Paul says of God in 1 Timothy 6:16 (WEB), "who alone has immortality". God is immortal, but the other spirit beings are not.

The possibility of anyone other than God gaining immortality was only first brought to light by the Gospel message:

2 Timothy 1:10 (WEB):
(10) but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the Good News.​
 

WalkInLight

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The devil will be consigned to the "lake of fire" which is called "the second death".....there is no conscious torture there...only eternal death.
God has no need to torture anyone, and in order to suffer eternally, one would have to have eternal life....God grants eternal life only to the righteous, not the wicked.

10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:10

"If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
Rev 14:9-10

The above verses suggest torment day and night. Also anyone who receives the mark of the beast.
No mention is made of sinners who appear to be destroyed in the fire rather than tormented.

It is for the Lord to decide, I leave it up to him.
God bless you