John 1:1 - Jesus is the Father or he's not the one true God?

[JunChosen]

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Third, Jesus claimed He would be directly involved in all the major aspects of the end of the world. In John 14:3, He says to His disciples, “I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where Iam.” Who is this man who stands at a moment in time and space and says, “I’m going to be involved in wrapping up the end of the world”? Jesus said, “I’m going to go away and I’m going to come back.”
This is a relevant statement in our twentieth-century culture. The whole world is consumed with people who have had near death experiences—they have gone away and come back. Yet if you say, “What if I could introduce you to somebody who had an out-of-body experience and actually died and definitely came back,” their initial interest would wane when you told them it was Jesus. “Oh, I thought you were going to tell me about a real person who went away and came back.” Minds that think like this are predisposed to
error. They are prepared to believe the most unbelievable things and are at the same time
unprepared to accept that which is explicit in the statements of Jesus. He said, “I’m going to go away and I’m going to come back.” In John 5:27, He said He was going to be involved in the judgment of the world: “And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.” Realizing people’s jaws would be hanging down in response to this, He said, “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done
good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me” (John 5:28–30).

In Matthew 25:31–32, Jesus says, “... he will sit on his throne ... and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.”
Some people say, “Isn’t Jesus just like Buddha? Isn’t Jesus just like Krishna? Isn’t He just like another Hindu avatar?” When we answer, “No, He’s not,”they ask, “How is He not?” Some of us may answer, “I don’t know how He’s not. I just know He’s not.” A person who has genuine questions about Jesus is not going to put up with that nonsense. If we cannot say why Jesus is not like Buddha, we are likely to get this kind of response: “Thank you
very much, you don’t know anything. You are a Christian ignoramus and you are annoying me. Don’t stand there and shout in my face. Listen to my questions and go home and do your homework until you know the answer.”

One of the answers is that Buddha never said he was going to sit on a throne and be involved in the judgment of the world. One of the other answers is that Buddha never claimed to be the one who spoke the very oracles and words of God. But it takes some Sunday afternoons with a concordance to come up with answers. It takes some evenings with your Bible and a pencil. It takes some thinking. It takes some discovering. It takes some diligence. All any reasonable teacher can do is stir within you the desire to become a student of the Bible. You cannot be spoon-fed into being able to articulate your faith. It takes hard work.

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[RLT63]

About what? Jesus didn't say the Pharisees were following tradition? The Pharisees were not the religious leaders? Peter does not say Christians share in the divine nature? Corinthians and John do not say only the Father is God? The orthodox church is somehow immune to following tradition?

I think that's about all I said, so in which part am I sadly mistaken?

There are plenty of others on this forum who share your views and I have wasted enough time with them. Have a good evening

 

[Rich R]

Why can't you address any other scripture pointed out to you? You deny Jesus' own words. Do you deny that Stephen prayed to Jesus? That God purchased the Church with his own blood?

Why would Stephen praying to God make him God?

1Tim 2:5,

For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
​

Here Jesus is called both a mediator and a man. A mediator stands between two parties, in this case people and God. The very fact Jesus stands between us means he is neither one of us. He's not us, nor is he God. He is the mediator. Just look up what it means to be a mediator. God is not His own mediator. That would make the word "mediator" meaningless.

It is also worth noting that 1 Tim 2:5 is one of 6 verses that specifically and unambiguously call Jesus a man. "The God Jesus Christ" is not to be found anywhere.

Most scholars, trinitarians including, understand that Acts 20:28 does not necessarily say Jesus is God. If it did it would contradict the clear declaration by both Paul and Jesus himself that only the Father is God. The Greek grammar is a bit complicated but grammatically "His own" can refer to Jesus, i.e., it was Jesus blood, not God's. God has no blood. When we take it that way there is no contradiction between Jesus being God and only the Father is God. Don't believe me on this. But I think if you do some honest open minded research you will see I am in fact right.

 

[Rich R]

There are plenty of others on this forum who share your views and I have wasted enough time with them. Have a good evening

Well, I certainly don't blame you for wasting time. I think it would be a huge waste of time trying to prove anything I said is wrong.

 

[RLT63]

Why would Stephen praying to God make him God?

1Tim 2:5,

For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
​

Here Jesus is called both a mediator and a man. A mediator stands between two parties, in this case people and God. The very fact Jesus stands between us means he is neither one of us. He's not us, nor is he God. He is the mediator. Just look up what it means to be a mediator. God is not His own mediator. That would make the word "mediator" meaningless.

It is also worth noting that 1 Tim 2:5 is one of 6 verses that specifically and unambiguously call Jesus a man. "The God Jesus Christ" is not to be found anywhere.

Most scholars, trinitarians including, understand that Acts 20:28 does not say Jesus is God. If it did it would contradict the clear declaration by both Paul and Jesus himself that only the Father is God. The Greek grammar is a bit complicated but grammatically "His own" can refer to Jesus, i.e., it was Jesus blood, not God's. God has no blood. When we take it that way there is no contradiction between Jesus being God and only the Father is God. Don't believe me on this. But I think if you do some honest open minded research you will see I am in fact right.

I see how many hoops you had to jump through to say Jesus' blood is not God's blood when the Bible says God purchased the Church with his own blood. Stephen clearly prayed to Jesus so does that make him a heretic in your view? I have already wasted enough time with people who disregard any scriptures that don't fit their beliefs. You go right ahead. There are plenty of people on the forum who will back you up.

 

[RLT63]

Well, I certainly don't blame you for wasting time. I think it would be a huge waste of time trying to prove anything I said is wrong.

It's not wrong in your echo chamber of like minded people.

 

[JunChosen]

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The fourth thing Jesus made clear in His indirect claims was that people’s reaction to Him was an indication of their reaction to God. In John 14, Jesus has just said He is going away and He will come back and receive them unto Himself, when Philip steps up and asks a question. Philip is a great guy to have in class because he always asks the dumb question you were afraid to ask yourself. Philip says, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us” (v. 8). Jesus answers him, “Don’t you know me, Philip?” What is Jesus saying here? He is saying, “Anyone who has seen me has
seen the Father” (v. 9). Some people say Jesus never ever claimed to be God. WHAT IS THIS, IF NOT A CLAIM TO BE GOD?

Back in John 12, Jesus was addressing the Jews in their unbelief. He was preaching out of the Old Testament, showing how the Old Testament tied in with the New. Verses 42 through 45 say, “But because of the Pharisees they would not confess their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved praise from men more
than praise from God. Then Jesus cried out, ‘When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me.’”
The same thing happens when Jesus welcomes the children in Mark’s gospel. In Mark 9:36–37, He takes a little child in His arms and says, “Whoever welcomes one of these little children in my name welcomes me.” And then here comes the kicker: “And whoever welcomes me does not welcome me but the one who sent me.”
In John, the flip side of it is also very clear. Jesus
says in John 5:22, “The Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son.” Why? “That all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent Him” (v. 23). THAT IS
STRAIT FORWARD!

Perhaps someone were to come to you and say, “I am a believer. I believe in God, I honor Jehovah. I just don’t honor Jesus the Son. I don’t believe he is the incarnate Son of God. But I’m okay because I honor the Father.”
What does Jesus say to that? “He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.”
Now, Mormon people are lovely, really committed
to the family, committed to doing well in business, strong in certain foundational principles. But in dialogue with us they say, “We honor the Father; we do not honor Christ as the incarnate Son of God.” Mormons who tell you they do are either deluded and have not understood the teaching or they are lying to you. Orthodox Mormonism does not honor Christ as the co-equal, co-eternal Son of God. They affirm, “We honor the Father.”
Let’s look at what Jesus says. “He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent Him.”
So what then is the spiritual power which impel Mormonism? If it is impossible not to honor God the Father except in the righteous honor of the Son, then those who claim to honor the Father and ignore the Son do not honor the Father. So where is their spiritual power coming from?

John 15:23 says, “He who hates me hates my Father as well.” Some people say, “I don’t hate God. I just hate anyone who says Jesus is God, because nowhere does the Bible suggest that.” But Jesus says in the Bible, “You say you hate me, then you hate my Father as well.” Why? Jesus says, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30). “You can’t talk about me without talking about my Dad and you can’t talk about my Dad without talking about me. So don’t say you can love my Dad and hate me.”
On a more superficial level, you can tell a lot about how people feel about the father by the way they treat his kids. The Father looks down from heaven and instructs, “You honor my Son. You listen to His words.” Someone replies, “I don’t want to
listen to His words. I just want to honor You.” And
Jesus’ comeback is the same: “You can’t honor the
Father unless you honor the Son. If you hate Me,
you hate God.” The Jewish people in Jesus’ day could not stomach that. They said, Listen, “Abraham is our father” (see John 8:39). “We don’t have to listen to this stuff, Jesus. We are nice, upright, religious people. We have Abraham as our father. We can go to the real source.” Jesus said to them, “You belong to your father the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire... He is a liar and the father of lies” (John 8:44). Did a madman speak these words? Or a bad man? Or the God-man?

To God Be The Glory

 

[Rich R]

I see how many hoops you had to jump through to say Jesus' blood is not God's blood when the Bible says God purchased the Church with his own blood. Stephen clearly prayed to Jesus so does that make him a heretic in your view? I have already wasted enough time with people who disregard any scriptures that don't fit their beliefs. You go right ahead. There are plenty of people on the forum who will back you up.

Did you spend any time at all looking at textual variants of Acts 20:28? They are most definitely there. As I said, even most trinitarian scholars acknowledge that. They have to, because there are in fact textual variants there. In any case, whatever Acts says, it must agree with 1 Cor 8:6 and John 17:3. How do you twist those verses to say Jesus is God when they clearly say only the Father is God?

 

[Peterlag]

@Rich R, @Wrangler, @APAK, @tigger 2, @Peterlag and to all unitarians,

Did Jesus ever claim to be God? That is the question. That is the bottom line. People say to us from time to time, “I know you say He was God, but did He ever claim to be God?” They have a sneaking suspicion that the reason we declare Him to be God is because we need Him to be God. If He is not God, then He is just one of many on the
plane of world religions, and Christianity has lost its dominant role in the world. “You want Him to be God,” our challengers say, “and therefore you read your conclusions into your presupposition, and you start from there.”
What do we say in response to that? First, we have
to examine the evidence in the Bible. We have
to answer the question, “Does Jesus claim to be God?”

In the Bible, Jesus makes direct claims, and He
also makes indirect claims. We’ll start with the
indirect claims. First, Jesus made staggering claims about His ability to meet the spiritual needs of others. In the gospel of John there is a great succession of “I am” statements made by Jesus. “I am the light of the world. He who follows me will not walk in darkness.” “I am the bread of life.” “I am the door.” “I am the good shepherd.” “I am the resurrection and the life.” “I am the way, the truth and the life,” and so on.

Why are these “I am” statements significant? Because when Jesus makes each of these statements, He is claiming that He and He alone could meet every individual’s need for forgiveness, peace, security, and direction. And He alone could bring them into a living, eternal relationship with God. He is not simply making
interesting statements. He is actually affirming certain convictions about who He is. “Follow Me,” He says, “and you’ll never walk in darkness.” “Eat he bread of life and you’ll never hunger again.” “Follow Me, walk with Me, and I’ll take you directly into heaven.”
It is difficult to imagine how anyone in his right mind could make even one of these claims without believing himself to be God. Imagine a man walking onto the stage of human history and saying, “I am the way, the truth, the life. Nobody comes to God the Father but through me.” That man is either a bad man telling lies, or a madman totally deluded or he is the God-man. He is actually who he claims to be. We need to be able to engage our friends at this level of dialogue. We can say to them, “I know you’ve got a problem with this idea of Jesus being divine, but look at what He said. He’s either a liar,
a madman, or God. Do you think He’s a liar?” “No,” they’ll probably say. “Do you think He’s crazy?” They might say, “No, I don’t think so. He healed people and welcomed
them and talked with them. I don’t think he was crazy.”
“Well, then, who do you think He is?” The standard
answer is, “I think he was just a good man.” How can you have a good man who tells lies like this? He did not leave us the option of being a
good man. He was either who He said He was, or a
lunatic or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man
was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or
something worse.” The evidence in the Bible is
that Jesus made staggering statements and claims
concerning how He alone could address the
spiritual needs of others.

Secondly, He made astonishing claims about His
teachings. In Matthew 5:18 during the Sermon on
the Mount, Jesus says, “I tell you the truth, until
heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest
letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any
means disappear from the Law until everything
is accomplished.” Jesus was here affirming the
authenticity of the Old Testament. He was saying
what others would say of the Scriptures—they
are from God, they are factual, they cannot be
tampered with. Then in Matthew 24:35, He says
the same thing about His own words: “Heaven
and earth will pass away, but my words will never
pass away.” He was claiming that His words were
like the Old Testament words. “The words that I
speak are the very words of God. They will never,
ever pass away.”
Two thousand years later, we are studying the
very words of Jesus, which He said will never pass away, despite the fact that centuries have tried to grind into the dust of oblivion the very truth of the Scriptures.
In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus also takes false
interpretations of the Old Testament and corrects
them. He says,
You have heard that it was said to the
people long ago, ‘Do not murder, and
anyone who murders will be subject to
judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who
is angry with his brother will be subject
to judgment. (Matthew 5:21–22a)
You have heard that it was said, ‘Do
not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that
anyone who looks at a woman lustfully
has already committed adultery with her
in his heart. (vv. 27–28)
It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces
his wife, ...’ But I tell you, ... (vv. 31–32)
You have heard that it was said, ‘Love
your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But
I tell you... (vv. 43–44)
And on and on.
What is the point here? If someone else were to
take the Bible and say, “You’ve heard what the
Bible tells you to do, but I’m telling you to do this
other,” we’d be saying back, “Who in the world
do you think you are?” What was Jesus doing? He
was clearly making astonishing claims about His
teaching. He was putting His teaching on a par
with the rest of biblical instruction.

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What do you mean that if Jesus is not God, then he is just one of many on the plane of world religions? Jesus was never just a man. He was God's son and the first one to be raised out from among the dead and made both Lord and Christ with the awesome power of God. That is not just another a guy who is one of many.

 

[RLT63]

Did you spend any time at all looking at textual variants of Acts 20:28? They are most definitely there. As I said, even most trinitarian scholars acknowledge that. They have to, because there are in fact textual variants there. In any case, whatever Acts says, it must agree with 1 Cor 8:6 and John 17:3. How do you twist those verses to say Jesus is God when they clearly say only the Father is God?

Acts 20:28 says the same thing in almost every modern version and the KJV and the NKJV. Let me guess, it's different in The New World Translation? Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and the entire flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which He purchased with His own blood.

 

[tigger 2]

Acts 20:27-29 MOUNCE - for I did not shrink from announcing to - Bible Gateway

Also RSV; NRSV; LEB; NCV; and others.

 

[RLT63]

Acts 20:27-29 MOUNCE - for I did not shrink from announcing to - Bible Gateway

Also RSV; NRSV; LEB; NCV; and others.

The majority of Bible versions say his own blood. Check the link I provided

 

[JunChosen]

Not only is this the opposite of clear (who God is talking to is unstated), this passage does not address the fact that there is not one single verse in all 66 books of Scripture that says the one God exists in three persons.

Sure there is!!! Unitarians just can't see it. You quote it in every posts you write.

In fact, when you first started to add Deuteronomy 6:4 to your posts, I asked you to expound on it, but you elected to ignore my question to this day. Perhaps the third time will be a charm?

To God Be The Glory

 

[JunChosen]

What do you mean that if Jesus is not God, then he is just one of many on the plane of world religions? Jesus was never just a man. He was God's son and the first one to be raised out from among the dead and made both Lord and Christ with the awesome power of God. That is not just another a guy who is one of many.

Don't you ever know how to read posts? How then can you understand Scriptures? What I said was, "If Jesus is NOT God then he is just one of many on the plane of world religions." That is He would be like another Buddha or Krishna who never claimed that they will return after death

I think you should read Posts #859, #861, and #867 to get context.

To God Be The Glory

 

[RLT63]

#822, RLT63 wrote: “As in Revelation 1:17 and 18 Jesus says he is the first and the last”
...............................
"Alpha and Omega" appears to be a title for God. "first and last," however, is a phrase which means "only" in some sense. Notice that it is not capitalized in KJV, ASV, NAB, NASB, RSV, NRSV as a title for God normally is.

So, in what sense does it mean "only" in Rev. 1:17? Well simply read 1:17-18. Isn't it clear?

Alpha and Omega - Wikipedia

 

[RLT63]

The majority of Bible versions say his own blood. Check the link I provided

Titus 2:13

 

[Wrangler]

To not understand that at least one Person the Father is speaking to as the Holy Spirit, Who is mentioned as present before and during Creation, specifically in Genesis 1:2, is willful ignorance.

God is holy and has a spirit. That does not make this aspect of his existence to be a separate person from himself. That is a trinitarian invention and you, sir, are once again imposing Trinitarian dogma onto Unitarian text.

 

[RLT63]

God is holy and has a spirit. That does not make this aspect of his existence to be a separate person from himself. That is a trinitarian invention and you, sir, are once again imposing Trinitarian dogma onto Unitarian text.

"The word was a god"?

 

[Wrangler]

Sure there is!!! Unitarians just can't see it.

A rational person cannot see what is not there. If the doctor of the Trinity was in the scripture it would be the most quoted verse by those who suppose salvation depends on believing it.

In fact, when you first started to add Deuteronomy 6:4 to your posts, I asked you to expound on it, but you elected to ignore my question to this day.

expound on it? It’s so simple even a Trinitarian can understand it. The Shama states God is one not three in one, that YHWH alone is God.

Ex 3:15 informs us that Yahweh is the name God will be known by forever. He never changes his name to Jesus and Jesus is never called God and never calls himself God.

The first commandment says you shall have no other gods before me, singular, this includes the trinitarian god.

Jesus says he has a God and his God is the only true God. Why does this not matter to you?

 

[RLT63]

A rational person cannot see what is not there. If the doctor of the Trinity was in the scripture it would be the most quoted verse by those who suppose salvation depends on believing it.


expound on it? It’s so simple even a Trinitarian can understand it. The Shama states God is one not three in one, that YHWH alone is God.

Ex 3:15 informs us that Yahweh is the name God will be known by forever. He never changes his name to Jesus and Jesus is never called God and never calls himself God.

The first commandment says you shall have no other gods before me, singular, this includes the trinitarian god.

Jesus says he has a God and his God is the only true God. Why does this not matter to you?

Where does he say that?