John 1:1 - Jesus is the Father or he's not the one true God?
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Jesus says he has a God (who is the Father) in John 20:17. And in John 17:3 he says his God (who is the Father) is the only true God.
This thread is about the logical implications of these words from Jesus. See OP.
RLT63
Well-Known Member
Okay. Your doctrine is based on 2 verses. I understand. We believe verses that you won't address.
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Actual orthodox "Mormon" here: Jesus Christ is God and co-eternal with the Father. Their power is the same-- they are united as one. Same with their honor goodness, glory, mercy, justice, etc. To honor the Father is to honor the Son-- they are one. To follow the Spirit is to follow the Son-- they are one. The Son bows the the Father out of respect, not out of "this guy is more powerful than I and is going to kick my butt like a playground bully".
That's not lying or being deluded, just basic 101 theology. I hope it help clarifies things!
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Strawman. This thread is about 1 verse. And you have not explained why it does not mean anything to you that Jesus said he has a God, who is the only true God.
And to avoid another Strawman, Jesus explicitly says this. The other verses you refer to are not explicit. One has to read trinitarian dogma into the verse. In fact, the more vague and ambiguous the verse, the more adament trinitarians demand only their interpretation is the correct one. The reason for this is the complete absence of explicit text stating your doctrine.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Untrue. Every epistle explicitly identifies God as the Father alone. Every one!
The Scriptural evidence against the trinity is total. There is no trinity verse and it is directly taught that God is one, the Father over and over again. I don't know why this doesn't mean anything to you.
May grace and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus, the Anointed One, surround you. First, I thank my God through Jesus the Anointed for all of you. Romans 1:7-8
I pray that God our Father and the Lord Jesus, the Anointed One, will shower you with grace and peace. 1 Cor 1:3
May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.
2 Corinthians 1:2
I was not appointed by any group of people or any human authority, but by Jesus Christ himself and by God the Father, who raised Jesus from the dead.
Galatians 1:1
May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.
Ephesians 1:2
May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.
Philippians 1:2
May God our Father give you grace and peace. Colossians 1:2
We are writing to the church in Thessalonica, to you who belong to God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 1 & 2 Thessalonians 1:1
May God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord give you grace, mercy, and peace.1 & 2 Timothy 1:2
May God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior give you grace and peace.
Titus 1:4
May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.
Philemon 1:3
For God never said to any angel what he said to Jesus: “You are my Son. Today I have become your Father.” God also said, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son. Hebrews 1:5
Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring. James 1:27
God the Father knew you and chose you long ago, and his Spirit has made you holy. 1 Peter 1:2
when he received honor and glory from God the Father. 2 Peter 1:17
We proclaim ... our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
1 John 1:3 (NOTE: Again no reference to the HS)
Grace, mercy, and peace, which come from God the Father. 2 John 1:3
He has made us a Kingdom of priests for God his Father. Revelation 1:6
I didn't mean to give the impression that I was quoting from the NWT. I almost always quote from the English Standard Version (ESV), and I did so in that post. My apologies for not being clear about that.
On the NWT, though: I know very well what the NWT says in John and elsewhere; it's not... all... bad... :)
Sure, and I don't have a problem with it in and of itself; the pronouns are not really the problem. But Jesus is ~ inescapably, though you will disagree ~ and very clearly talking about a Person, another like Himself, sent in His name by the Father. I care for my own sake whether you can admit the truth of this or not, as truth it is.
And I'll just add that there is no possibility I will never say you (or anyone else) are "not worth talking to." I may come to regard some subjects not worth broaching or continuing in with this person or that person, certainly. But to deem a person not worth talking to? Nope.
I was not and am not accusing you of that in any way. But it is a great deception.
I'm sure many will, sure. And like I said, I really don't have a problem with the pronouns, but what the Watchtower and Jehovah's Witnesses (and a few others) mistakenly do with them, making Scripture out to be something quite other than what it is.
Yes, from this, all that's needed is this one little part, really:
"The New World Translation is unique in one thing – it is the first intentional, systematic effort at producing a complete version of the Bible that is edited and revised for the specific purpose of agreeing with a group’s doctrine. The Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Watchtower Society realized that their beliefs contradicted Scripture. So, rather than conforming their beliefs to Scripture, they altered Scripture to agree with their beliefs."
Grace and peace to all.
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Actually it's the Greek texts that have variants. There are some that say, "...which he hath purchased with his own blood." Others say, "...which he hath purchased with the blood of his own."
How do we decide which is the more likely text? To start with, it is important that we don't build an entire doctrine on one or two verses. That becomes especially important when we see that one translation of a verse causes contradictions with many other clear verses on the same subject.
If we say, "...which he hath purchased with his own blood" we have contradictions with something both Paul and Jesus himself said, namely, that only the Father is the one true God. It would also turn the concept of a son and a father upside down and inside out, given that a son can not be his own father. It would also create the problem of how God can have one will while Jesus has 100% diametrically opposed will.
Luke 22:42,
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
We also have to explain why it is said that Jesus was tempted in all points just like all of us while also saying that God can not be tempted.
Making Acts 20:28 say Jesus is God creates a huge problem with;
1 Cor 15:28,
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
One part of God being subject to another part of God is a problem for which I myself see no solution.
We would also have to determine who is the God and Father of God.
John 20:17,
Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.
Clearly Jesus has the same God and Father as we all have. There are no less than a dozen other verses that say Jesus has a God.
Luke 2:52,
And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
If Jesus were in fact a man, this verse would make sense. Make him God and we would need to explain how God grew in wisdom.
There are many many more verses that succinctly state that Jesus is a man. I'll admit there are a few verses that could be taken as saying he is God but that creates contradictions with the many clear verses. But it is also possible to take the few unclear verses in such a way that they do not contradict the many clear verses.
So which textual variant of Acts 20:28 is probably closest to the original document that Luke himself penned? I'll leave that for you to decide, but just realize one variant creates huge contradictions whereas the other does not. Then just go from there.
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I've asked countless individuals who the God and Father of God is. So far no answer that makes 1 ounce of sense.
Hm, well, God is perfect in holiness, for sure, but He is spirit, as John 4:24 says. So... that He is spirit is not just "an aspect of Himself," it is His state of being and His character. But the Holy Spirit is sent from God, just as Jesus was, but subsequent to Jesus and in His name, and Who teaches us all things and brings back to our minds all the things Jesus told us, again, just as Jesus said in John 14:26. And He is the one Who gives us spiritual gifts we have ~ they are gifts of the Spirit, apportioned to each of us individually according to the Father's will, as Paul says in Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 12.
Yet again, you are most welcome to your opinion, erroneous though it be. Sir. :)
I will say that it's quite interesting... and ironic... that you say 'trinitarian' and 'unitarian' as if the two concepts are diametrically opposed, which is quite opposite the truth...
Grace and peace to you.
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Are you even aware of how your words destroy the trinity?
I agree with what you write here, that neither the Holy Spirit nor Jesus are God but both came from God.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
LOL! They do no such thing. But I am aware ~ well aware ~ of your penchant for twisting things into what they are not to suit yourself... :)
Well, They were sent by the Father, which means they were previously with the Father, which means far, far, far more than merely that they were in some sort of proximity to Him, and firstly that they are both of God, and thus part of the Godhead. Such is your low view, inadvertent as it may be, of Scripture. But at least you acknowledge here the personhood of the Holy Spirit as well as Jesus, which is a step in the right direction, again, inadvertent as it may be.
Oh yeah. :) Your "take" on unitarianism. :) But not unitarianism as it should be understood... and not monotheism. :)
Grace and peace to you.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Pot, calling the kettle black. To wit:
That's not what you wrote. You said, and I agreed that they were sent by God. Now you are twisting things into what they are not to suit your doctrine.
(Joh 8:23) And he said to them: You are from beneath. I am from above. You are of this world. I am not of this world.
(Joh 8:24) I replied to you, that you shall die in your sins. For unless you believe that I am he, you shall die in your sins.
(Joh 8:25) They replied to him: Who are you? Jesus said to them: Even that which I have spoken to you from the beginning. (NEV)
Kermos, what did Yahshua say to them previously about who he is or I am he/ I am who, again?!
and then ....
(Joh 7:40) Therefore some of the crowd, when they heard these words, said: This is truly the prophet!
(Joh 7:41) Others said: This is the Christ. But some said: What! Does the Christ come out of Galilee?
(Joh 7:42) Has not the scripture said that the Christ comes of the seed of David and from Bethlehem, the village where David was born? (NEV)
Kermos, now in John 7:41- 42, that does not sound like YHWH is the Christ as YHWH is the one who anointed the Christ, right? And certainly you must believe that YHWH does not comes from the seed of David, right? Sounds like a human being to me. the person called Yahshua, the Christ.
Well fill in the blank Kermos, what are you (anyone for the matter) meant to believe about Yahshua the Christ in John 8:24b, what is you honest and spiritual conclusion here?
As if this part of the verse of John say all about who is the Christ...., then speak about deception Kermos. You do not only deceive others you always seem to deceive yourself of course first, and foremost.
The purpose of the Gospel is clearly stated in John 20:31:
(Joh 20:30) Many other signs Jesus did in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book.
(Joh 20:31) But these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in his name.
And then in .....
(Joh 13:19) From this time forward I will tell you before it happens, so that when it happens, you may believe that I am he.
(Joh 13:20) Truly, truly, I say to you: He that receives whoever I send receives me, and he that receives me, receives Him that sent me.(NEV) HIS FATHER, YHWH Kermos!!
And then you continue to be confused with who is YHWH and his expression of identity...oh well...
By bringing up John 8:23-25, you have brought up an important fact about the context of the conversation when Jesus declares that he is YHWH God in John 8:58, AND THE CONTEXT INCLUDES WHO JESUS IS!
You are a deceiver, and you deceive in your thoughts that Jesus is merely a man.
Lord Jesus Christ's says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).
Jesus Christ's words in John 8:58 germanely apply to the Word of God in Exodus 3:14-15 because both passages revolve around "who God is"; therefore, context between John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14 establishes.
That "I AM" in John 8:58 is "ego eimi" which also appears in the Septuagint version of Exodus 3:14 (the Septuagint is the Old Testament written in Greek about 200 years before Christ's birth); therefore, just like when Jesus says "My God, My God why have you forsaken Me" (Matthew 27:46) referring hearers to Psalm 22 which includes "They pierced my hands and my feet" (Psalm 22:16), in the same manner Jesus said "I AM" (ego eimi) referring hearers to Exodus 3:14 where God explains God's name to Moses with "I AM the Being" (ego eimi ho on); moreover, God continues explaining God's name in Exodus 3:14-15.
As the scriptural evidence shows, Jesus' words recorded in John 8:58 refer back to God's words in Exodus 3:14 and the continuing passage such as God's instruction for Moses to say to the Israelites "YHWH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you" (Exodus 3:15) which is also Jesus Christ's message Who is like Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15).
In John 8:58, Jesus declares Himself to be "I AM the Being" (Septuagint), that is, YHWH God (Exodus 3:14), of which the Greek can also be rendered "I AM the One", YHWH God (Exodus 3:14).
The Hebrew version of Exodus 3:14 also contains the equivalent of "I AM" in the Hebrew language with glorious intensity.
In John 8:58, Jesus declares Himself to be "I AM WHO I AM" (Hebrew), YHWH God (Exodus 3:14).
Here is the passsge to which Jesus refers to as Jesus' name based upon His recorded words in John 8:58 (this is translated from Hebrew).
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'YHWH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations." (Exodus 3:14-15).
See "I AM" and "Abraham" occur in both the John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14-15 passages thus intimately binding the Word of God over the centuries:
- "I AM" (John 8:58)
- "before Abraham was" (John 8:58)
- "I AM WHO I AM" (Exodus 3:14-15)
- 'I AM has sent me to you" (Exodus 3:14-15)
- "YHWH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham" (Exodus 3:14-15)
Both passages refer to Abraham, even speaking of Abraham after Abraham's death.
The clause "I AM" speaks to the ever-presence of God with the people of God, that is, God with the people of God yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
Let us recount the ways, outlined above, that the Word of God recorded in John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14 truly are bound together:
- John 8:58 contains dialog about who God is.
- Exodus 3:14-15 contains dialog about who God is.
- John 8:58 includes Abraham after his death.
- Exodus 3:14-15 includes Abraham after his death.
- John 8:58 references the ever-present God, thst is, "I AM" with the people of God.
- Exodus 3:14-15 references the ever-present God, thst is, "I AM" with the people of God.
Lord Jesus Christ is truly YHWH God, the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4).
All people that deny the Spiritually true bond between the Word of God recorded in the John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14-15 passages effectively deny Jesus Christ thus all such people are under the wrath of God for the Word of God says "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).
Not once we aver,
"...So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty..." ~ Athanasian Creed ~
If we accept that then no need to make sense with anything else. Anything goes, but it does not go. What???? :)
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LOL! So, wait ~ what I wrote is not really what I wrote? Even though you actually quoted me?
Okay, good, and more specifically the Father, as Jesus said (regarding the Holy Spirit in John 14:16 and John 14:26, and regarding Himself in John 14:24), regardless of what I or you or anybody else said.
Ah, so, I said, you agreed, and then I said again, and you agreed again, but I'm still twisting things?
Yeah no. Not at all. Wow.
Grace and peace to you.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Aristotlean logic: Contradictions do not exist in reality.
Mystical Dualism: Contradictions exist in reality.
Well, no longer any need to try to make sense of nonsense. :) Or heretical "sense." Though individual, they are one. Likewise, we, as Paul says in Romans 12:5, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
Yeah, what???? :)
Grace and peace to you, Rich.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Rather than admit you are contradicting yourself, you reveal your mocking spirit. I'll pray for you.
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