John 1:1 - Jesus is the Father or he's not the one true God?

[Wrangler]

The Angel of The Lord in the Old Testament is not speaking on God's behalf he speaks AS GOD.

Again, so what? How an angel talks does not change the fact that he is an angel, a messenger of God, rather than God. IF he were God, he would not be called an angel. He'd be called God like other verses properly identify God as God. It's so simple, even a trinitarian can understand it.

Again do you worship Jesus?

No.

Jesus does not teach us to worship a trinity or to pray to anyone but God, who we relate to as Father.

 

[Wrangler]

Scripture John 8:58-59

Again, the most anti-trinitarian book in the whole Bible, John also explicitly tells us at 20:31 that everything he wrote was to prove something other than the idea that Jesus is God; namely, that Jesus is God’s Anointed. So, it is funny to see trinitarians try to twist 1:1 – and indeed, his entire Gospel - to have a purpose other than what John explicitly stated is the purpose of his Gospel!

 

[RLT63]

Again, the most anti-trinitarian book in the whole Bible, John also explicitly tells us at 20:31 that everything he wrote was to prove something other than the idea that Jesus is God; namely, that Jesus is God’s Anointed. So, it is funny to see trinitarians try to twist 1:1 – and indeed, his entire Gospel - to have a purpose other than what John explicitly stated is the purpose of his Gospel!

You twist the entire Bible to fit your view. If you don't worship Jesus I can't help you. I guess you think he was crucified on a pole too?

 

[RLT63]

Again, the most anti-trinitarian book in the whole Bible, John also explicitly tells us at 20:31 that everything he wrote was to prove something other than the idea that Jesus is God; namely, that Jesus is God’s Anointed. So, it is funny to see trinitarians try to twist 1:1 – and indeed, his entire Gospel - to have a purpose other than what John explicitly stated is the purpose of his Gospel!

Revelation 1:17 and 18 Who is the first and last?

 

[Peterlag]

Jesus was a man. He is also God. Fully man and fully God.

Yeah but my question is what does it profit to have Jesus as God. Here I will give you another one where he as a man can produce something...

Acts 10:42
And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

Jesus Christ is the one who is established by the order and appointment of God to issue the necessary order of the new covenant, and to be the judge of those who are alive and who have died.

 

[RLT63]

Yeah but my question is what does it profit to have Jesus as God. Here I will give you another one where he as a man can produce something...

Acts 10:42
And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

Jesus Christ is the one who is established by the order and appointment of God to issue the necessary order of the new covenant, and to be the judge of those who are alive and who have died.

No one can read the book of John and deny that Jesus is God without severely twisting the scriptures. But the consensus on here seems to be that he is not. Perhaps I have stumbled upon the wrong forum. No scriptures provided or links to articles explaining the plain truth of the scriptures seems to have any effect or are given any consideration at all. There is no attempt to address my argument other than to dismiss it.

 

[JunChosen]

"God dwelleth in us" "Hereby know we that we dwell in him" "and he in us" "because he hath given us of his Spirit" "he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God" "and God in him"
And believe me none of these verses make me God.

I should hope not!! LOL
God is not to be thought of as three different individuals in the sense like Peter, James, and John because Peter, James, and John are not one. They are lacking in absolute unity. There is disagreement among them, there is disparsement as to gifts and capabilities and quality of brains so forth and so on. They are not equal, they are not one in unity and substance in essense and purpose and so on. as God is indeed "one." We must not think of them (Godhead) like Peter, James, and John, for this denies His absolute unity of substance and essense. On the other hand, to say that God is absolute in unity in the sense of "one alone" without subsisting as three persons is also heresy according to the Bible. This concept usually expresses His unique plurality in forms of terms in field and interest or mode of expressing Himself. Such as the pagan Idea that God is revealed as the Father in the Old Testament, that He is revealed as the Son in the New Testament, and during the Church Age He is revealed as the Holy Spirit. Whenever we find this it is a cult and not the church speaking. BTW, this old doctrine is called Sabellianism and it ought to be avoided also.

And so I think in our hearts today would join in that glorious doxology of the church:

Praise God from whom all blessings flow
Praise Him all creatures here below
Praise Him all ye above from heavenly host
Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost

For our God indeed is one God and yet we see that the Scriptures teach plainly although we cannot understand how the Scripture teach plainly that although God is one that He exist as one unity, He subsist as three persons as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, for the Bible teaches indeed that the Father is God, that the Bible indeed teaches that the Son is God, and that the Bible indeed teaches that the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God, three persons distinct and separate, and yet in the same breath declares that this God exist as three persons Father, Son, and Holy Spirit exist as "one God", "one Jehovah" for all of eternity.

To God Be The Glory





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[Peterlag]

I should hope not!! LOL
God is not to be thought of as three different individuals in the sense like Peter, James, and John because Peter, James, and John are not one. They are lacking in absolute unity. There is disagreement among them, there is disparsement as to gifts and capabilities and quality of brains so forth and so on. They are not equal, they are not one in unity and substance in essense and purpose and so on. as God is indeed "one." We must not think of them (Godhead) like Peter, James, and John, for this denies His absolute unity of substance and essense. On the other hand, to say that God is absolute in unity in the sense of "one alone" without subsisting as three persons is also heresy according to the Bible. This concept usually expresses His unique plurality in forms of terms in field and interest or mode of expressing Himself. Such as the pagan Idea that God is revealed as the Father in the Old Testament, that He is revealed as the Son in the New Testament, and during the Church Age He is revealed as the Holy Spirit. Whenever we find this it is a cult and not the church speaking. BTW, this old doctrine is called Sabellianism and it ought to be avoided also.

And so I think in our hearts today would join in that glorious doxology of the church:

Praise God from whom all blessings flow
Praise Him all creatures here below
Praise Him all ye above from heavenly host
Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost

For our God indeed is one God and yet we see that the Scriptures teach plainly although we cannot understand how the Scripture teach plainly that although God is one that He exist as one unity, He subsist as three persons as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, for the Bible teaches indeed that the Father is God, that the Bible indeed teaches that the Son is God, and that the Bible indeed teaches that the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God, three persons distinct and separate, and yet in the same breath declares that this God exist as three persons Father, Son, and Holy Spirit exist as "one God", "one Jehovah" for all of eternity.

To God Be The Glory





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In your last paragraph you write that the Scriptures teach plainly. This is just not true. The doctrine of the Trinity is not stated in the Bible, but is actually “built” by piecing together statements that are said to support it. Since most Christians believe the Trinity is a mystery and not to be understood is a huge reason why doctrinal discussions about it are often avoided or brushed aside and ignored. Worse, the teaching that the Trinity is a “mystery” has been used as a club to beat down doubters and dissenters, and those people are often branded as “heretics” and their role in Christianity minimized. Furthermore, scholars admit that there are only about eight verses in the entire New Testament that can be understood to say that Jesus is God, and every one of them can either be translated in a way that supports the Biblical Unitarian position, or disputed textually, or can be explained from the use of the word “God” in the culture. In contrast, the clear verses where Jesus is said to be a “man” such as when Peter or Paul taught their audiences that Jesus was a man appointed by God are not disputed and in the context there does not seem to be any good reason those men would not have said Jesus was a God-man if in fact that is what he is.

 

[Wrangler]

You twist the entire Bible to fit your view.

The opposite is the case. Consider these explicit teachings in the Bible compared to your doctrine.

1. All glory to God (none to his servant Jesus as Acts 17:31 says).
2. You shall have no other gods before me (singular), especially the trinitarian (plural) god.
3. 'For us there is only one God, the Father.' 1 COR 8:6.

If you don't worship Jesus I can't help you.

Jesus never even suggested he be worshipped. Again, Jesus said he has a God who is the only true God. Why is this not good enough for you?

 

[Wrangler]

Revelation 1:17 and 18 Who is the first and last?

Not Jesus. God is the 1st and the last. Jesus, speaking for God, received the revelation from God. See Rev 1:1.

 

[RLT63]

Not Jesus. God is the 1st and the last. Jesus, speaking for God, received the revelation from God. See Rev 1:1.

There's no way you can twist those 2 verses. Jesus says he is the first and the last then identifies himself as he who was dead but now lives. There's nothing you can do with those 2 verses

 

[RLT63]

The opposite is the case. Consider these explicit teachings in the Bible compared to your doctrine.

1. All glory to God (none to his servant Jesus as Acts 17:31 says).
2. You shall have no other gods before me (singular), especially the trinitarian (plural) god.
3. 'For us there is only one God, the Father.' 1 COR 8:6.

Jesus never even suggested he be worshipped. Again, Jesus said he has a God who is the only true God. Why is this not good enough for you?

Because your entire faith is based on one verse you misinterpret and you disregard any scriptures I provide. Of course there is one true God and he exists as Father, Son and Holy Spirit

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus says he is the first and the last

Isaiah says the same thing. Doesn't make him God. This is what prophets do; speak for God. Trinitarians are the ones twisting what Scripture says. For instance, this thread is not about Revelation about John 17:3. If Jesus is not the Father, then he is not the one true God.

 

[Wrangler]

Because your entire faith is based on one verse

Odd response to men referring to 3 verses. Again, the trinity is not in the Bible - not the word and not the concept. To avoid the inevitable Appeal to Strawman, there simply is no verse that reads something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever. If there were such a verse, it would be the most quoted verse in Scripture by those who claim one’s salvation depends on believing it. The concept of the trinity is so important that in 66 books, it is not mentioned once!

 

[RLT63]

Isaiah says the same thing. Doesn't make him God. This is what prophets do; speak for God. Trinitarians are the ones twisting what Scripture says. For instance, this thread is not about Revelation about John 17:3. If Jesus is not the Father, then he is not the one true God.

Isaiah is quoting God. Jesus is speaking for himself.

 

[RLT63]

Odd response to men referring to 3 verses. Again, the trinity is not in the Bible - not the word and not the concept. To avoid the inevitable Appeal to Strawman, there simply is no verse that reads something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever. If there were such a verse, it would be the most quoted verse in Scripture by those who claim one’s salvation depends on believing it. The concept of the trinity is so important that in 66 books, it is not mentioned once!

Out of 2.65 billion Christians, 97% of them are Trinitarian. Since it is a fundamental belief, if it were wrong, would 't you think that the Holy Spirit, our Teacher and Guide to all Truth, would have corrected it?

 

[RLT63]

Odd response to men referring to 3 verses. Again, the trinity is not in the Bible - not the word and not the concept. To avoid the inevitable Appeal to Strawman, there simply is no verse that reads something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever. If there were such a verse, it would be the most quoted verse in Scripture by those who claim one’s salvation depends on believing it. The concept of the trinity is so important that in 66 books, it is not mentioned once!

Christianity Board Statement of Faith

 

[Wrangler]

Isaiah is quoting God. Jesus is speaking for himself.

No! That’s trinitarianism imposing its dogma onto unitarian text. There you go again, defying Christ in claiming his words glorify him in the highest possible way. Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. John 8:54

All prophets speak for God. Jesus confessed he is not speaking on his own authority.

I don’t speak on my own authority. The Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to say it. John 12:49

 

[Wrangler]

Out of 2.65 billion Christians, 97% of them are Trinitarian.

Truth is not determined by majority. Jesus said only his Father is the true God. You say Jesus is wrong?

 

[RLT63]

No! That’s trinitarianism imposing its dogma onto unitarian text. There you go again, defying Christ in claiming his words glorify him in the highest possible way. Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. John 8:54

All prophets speak for God. Jesus confessed he is not speaking on his own authority.

I don’t speak on my own authority. The Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to say it. John 12:49

No! That’s trinitarianism imposing its dogma onto unitarian text. There you go again, defying Christ in claiming his words glorify him in the highest possible way. Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. John 8:54

All prophets speak for God. Jesus confessed he is not speaking on his own authority.

I don’t speak on my own authority. The Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to say it. John 12:49

Just read the 2 verses in Revelation as written. You can't do it.