What Are we Getting Saved From?

[face2face]

What’s “funny” is that people swallow this satanic lie. There is no teaching of an immortal soul that leaves the body in conscious form to go somewhere else, anywhere in the Bible. A “soul” is a living, breathing creature, both humans and animals are called “souls”. The word never refers to a disembodied spirit. Adam “became” a soul when God started him breathing. Souls are breathers.

My studies over the years have shown me this is the starting point for all truth - you get this wrong and the atonement through to the apocalypse cannot be understood. Add an immortal soul to man and all truth is corrupted. This places the Christian well outside the Hope of Israel! Acts of the Apostles 28:20

 

[keithr]

@keithr can I ask you a few questions....? This is just becoming circular and unproductive.

I think I'll decline from answering those questions. It's digressing from the original topic of this thread, and I don't have enough enthusiam and time to go over all those topics right now. Another day maybe. I need some rest now. :Zzzzz:

 

[bbyrd009]

John 1:41

im missing how that is a response i guess, sorry?

 

[Jack]

Clearly you don't! He gave his wise servant imagery to show the severity of remaining in the grave...but that's it...hence many graves! You dig a hole to enter sheol.

If I'm wrong I have nothing to lose. If you are wrong you have a real problem! You will have blood on your hands on Judgment Day.

 

[Jack]

could it also be that Heaven will be filled with people who don't believe in Heaven?
Now before you jump to a conclusion, put your thinking cap on!

ONLY if they get saved before they die.

Mark 16 He that believeth not shall be DAMNED!

 

[Jack]

Questions are in need of being asked. Without them being asked assumptions will surely rule!

To discard "hell fire", "everlasting fire", "the lake of fire" makes a total mockery of the NT.

 

[Jack]

all go to the same place
you and your sons will be here with me

No Scripture? Of course not.
.

bc they are mostly all in the cult of sol invictus i think, my friend[/QUOTE]
Think what you will. I'll take Jesus' Words. The rich man in Luke 16 died and was in torment in fire. He was still alive.

 

[Jack]

Not true. You have not been taught the truth about “Hell”.


If you would bother to do some research into the meaning of the word “hell” you would see it is translated from two words in the Bible originally written in Hebrew and Greek.
The Hebrew is “sheol” and the Greek equivalent is “hades”. There is also another Greek word that is erroneously translated as “hell” and that is “gehenna”. But gehenna is not hades.

“Gehenna” was Jerusalem’s garbage dump where fires were kept burning day and night and where the carcasses of dead animals and some executed criminals were cast for disposal. This is what Jesus used to illustrate what happens to those who deliberately oppose God and his means of salvation. The fires of gehenna were never extinguished. What the fire missed, the maggots finished off.
Being thrown into gehenna meant no memorial tomb and hence no resurrection. Jews had no belief in life after death. That was a Greek idea that infiltrated both Judaism and Christianity after the first century. There never was such a place.

There is no “burning hell” for the souls of humans to be tormented in flames. Nothing alive was ever cast into gehenna. It was the place to dispose of garbage.


What’s “funny” is that people swallow this satanic lie. There is no teaching of an immortal soul that leaves the body in conscious form to go somewhere else, anywhere in the Bible. A “soul” is a living, breathing creature, both humans and animals are called “souls”. The word never refers to a disembodied spirit. Adam “became” a soul when God started him breathing. Souls are breathers.

God told Adam that if he disobeyed, he would go back to where he came from...the “dust” of the earth. There was no “heaven or hell” ever mentioned to him. Death was simply the opposite of life.
The only way to regain life was by resurrection. That is not talking about continuing to live, but life being restored, here on earth for the majority. A small number will be going to heaven to rule with Christ in his kingdom, (Revelation 20:6) but they will be ruling over earthly subjects in fulfilment of Revelation 21:1-4. The “kings and priests” need humans to rule and to act as priests.

To blindly believe in this awful place is to paint God as a cruel fiend. It is completely opposite to his loving personality.

In Jeremiah 7:31, it speaks of the Israelites burning their children in the fire as a sacrifice to Molech, and yet what did God say about that?
“They have built the high places of Toʹpheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’”

If it never came into God’s heart to burn children in a fire....why would he do that to his own children?
Please do some proper research.

You're totally ignoring the Words of Jesus or you're trying to rewrite them.
Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

 

[quietthinker]

To discard "hell fire", "everlasting fire", "the lake of fire" makes a total mockery of the NT.

I would reconsider that, Jack.....and not to make mockery.

 

[Jack]

I would reconsider that, Jack.....and not to make mockery.

I have reconsidered it many times. Hell / the lake of fire are clear NT doctrines.
"They will be tormented day and night forever and ever".

 

[quietthinker]

I have reconsidered it many times. Hell / the lake of fire are clear NT doctrines.
"They will be tormented day and night forever and ever".

tell me what you've considered, Jack....in relation to this?

 

[Jack]

tell me what you've considered, Jack....in relation to this?

"What Are we Getting Saved From"
The "everlasting fire" that Jesus CLEARLY warned of about.
MANY who twist Jesus's Words about "hell fire" will burn in "hell fire". Remember that Jesus said only a "FEW" will be saved? Have you read that part?

 

[quietthinker]

"What Are we Getting Saved From"
The "everlasting fire" that Jesus CLEARLY warned of about.
MANY who twist Jesus's Words about "hell fire" will burn in "hell fire". Remember that Jesus said only a "FEW" will be saved? Have you read that part?

I have no interest in an argument Jack. If we are going to discuss this and go places, an openness is required. I'm not sure if you're up to that....what do you say?

 

[Jack]

I have no interest in an argument Jack. If we are going to discuss this and go places, an openness is required. I'm not sure if you're up to that?

I quoted Jesus. Why does that upset you?
Matthew 5 Whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.

Have you read Luke 16? The rich man died but was alive in the fire.

 

[quietthinker]

I quoted Jesus. Why does that upset you?
Matthew 5 Whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.

You've drawn an incorrect conclusion about me Jack.....I am not upset.
Attack and defence is not my objective.....exploration and enquiry is .... particularly when it comes to understanding these things.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I think I'll decline from answering those questions. It's digressing from the original topic of this thread, and I don't have enough enthusiam and time to go over all those topics right now. Another day maybe. I need some rest now. :Zzzzz:

Sorry to hear that keithr......these topics can be taxing as they relate to our eternal salvation.....but in all honesty, I see the questions as being very relevant to the topic under discussion.

These two questions particularly......
“1) What is the Kingdom of God that Jesus taught us to pray for? What is its purpose, and what is the “good news” about it that he told us to preach to the world? (Matthew 6:9-10; Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20) Please be specific.

2) If there was no reason for God to send any humans to heaven when he created them, why will “all Christians” need go to heaven? If there was a purpose clearly stated in Eden for their everlasting life here on earth, why would God need or want to take any Christians to heaven?”

The first question relates specifically to the means by which God provides salvation for Christ’s disciples. If people cannot specifically define what God’s Kingdom is, and what the “good news” is about the things it will accomplish, then I am concerned about the level of knowledge that the average Christian receives.....this is vital knowledge because Christ’s disciples were to take this message about the kingdom to the whole world. (Matthew 24:14) How can any Christian preach about something so important, when they cannot understand what it is?

The second question relates to the elect and their role in the administration of God’s Kingdom. They are to be “kings and priests” for redeemed mankind. (Revelation 20:6) So who is it that provides the services for those who are “saved” by Christ’s sacrifice.......? Who are the “kings and priests”....and who is it that receives their services?

These are very important questions......and unless we can answer them, can we really call ourselves “Christians” in the first place? We cannot understand salvation itself, let alone who is saved and what they are getting saved from.

We can call ourselves whatever we wish, but living up to the label is quite another matter. To “become” a Christian in the first place requires understanding about what it all means. The Lord’s Prayer, is probably the most recited prayer in Christianity....and yet when Jesus says..."thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven".....how many know what it is that they are praying for?

Salvation is the most vital question that all Christian must understand.....it’s connection to the Kingdom of God is inseparable. We must understand what the Kingdom is and what it’s for.....

Matthew 6:31-34...
“So never be anxious and say, ‘What are we to eat?’ or, ‘What are we to drink?’ or, ‘What are we to wear?’ 32 For all these are the things the nations are eagerly pursuing. Your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
33 “Keep on, then, seeking first the Kingdom and his righteousness, and all these other things will be added to you. 34 So never be anxious about the next day, for the next day will have its own anxieties. Each day has enough of its own troubles.”

To “seek first the Kingdom and [God’s] righteousness” is what will result in salvation. It’s a priority, and the saddest thing is, very few actually know what the kingdom is.
So, who is responsible for this lack of understanding do you think?

I invite any and all to respond to these questions.....

 

[Aunty Jane]

I quoted Jesus. . . . .
Matthew 5 Whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.

Have you read Luke 16? The rich man died but was alive in the fire.

When you know what “hell” actually is as the Bible writers understood the words in both Hebrew and Greek, you would see that this 'suffering in an eternal fiery hell' is a pagan Greek idea not taught in scripture at all. The Jews did not have torture as a punishment nor did they even have prisons.
“Hell Fire” is “Gehenna” and it is not literal but entirely symbolic. It’s about rubbish being disposed of...wicked humans judged as unworthy to retain the gift of life. In order to suffer eternally, one must be alive and conscious eternally.....but God Promised eternal life only to the righteous.
Why does he need to torture people forever for a short lifetime of sin (which was not their fault in the first place?)
It is contrary to God’s justice to even even consider eternal suffering in a fiery hell. The punishment does not fit the crime....and with God's justice, it always did.

Those scriptures that you think are about eternal torment are actually about eternal punishment......one does not have to be alive to suffer eternal punishment because eternal death is the opposite of eternal life.

"The second death" is the "lake of fire".....there is no suffering. Fire destroys whatever is thrown into it. The second death means that there is no resurrection for those in "gehenna"...they are destroyed. (Matthew 10:28) That is their everlasting punishment. God has no pleasure even in the death of the wicked, so what is gained by eternal suffering? (Ezekiel 33:11)

The parable in Luke 16 is just that...its a parable, which is basically 'an earthly story with a heavenly meaning'.
This is nothing to do with life after death....it is the comparison that Jesus made between the Pharisees (represented by the rich man) and the "lost sheep" (represented by the beggar.) Their "deaths" are also symbolic because the Pharisees lost God's favor and the "lost sheep" gained it through faith in Jesus Christ. The 'rich man' "died" to God, but the 'beggar' was received by him into the "bosom" position, and came into a relationship with him through the ministry of Jesus.

These two groups of people swapped places.....
Being in "the bosom of Abraham" meant a position of favor with God. To the Jews, those reclining at the table were said to be in the "bosom" position if they were seated closest to the host. It was the best seat in the house so to speak.

A loving God has nothing to gain by torturing anyone.....he does not want or need to do that because it accomplishes nothing.
Punishment in Israel was to lead a person to see the error of their ways and repent.....what does "hell" accomplish?

 

[bbyrd009]

No Scripture? Of course not.

those were both straight out of the Bible, Jack

Think what you will. I'll take Jesus' Words. The rich man in Luke 16 died and was in torment in fire. He was still alive.

well, then you might wonder why he asked only for water to cool his tongue? But dont get me wrong ok, rely on an interp of a parable if you like; i understand that the desire for "death, more abundantly" is a strong one

 

[bbyrd009]

worth considering, imo, that the parable starts to make sense in the context of then-current events in Israel, with "Lazarus" (Eleazer) playing the beggar, etc

 

[bbyrd009]

I'll take Jesus' Words

then in that context you might try You do not know what spirit you are of on for size