The many errors and contradictions found in Amillennialism.

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Spiritual Israelite

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The future Millennium is scripture. I advise no one to reject it. Reject the false "now Millennium". The Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) is not at the second coming, see Revelation 19-20 for that.
Yet, you acknowledge by your interpretation of Matthew 13:47-50 that the GWTJ will occur at the end of the age. Jesus will return at the end of the age. You're not putting two and two together here because you base your interpretation of the rest of scripture on your interpretation of Revelation 19 and 20. You should instead base your interpretation of Revelation 19 and 20 on the many other scriptures which contradict your interpretation of Revelation 19 and 20.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him,

46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”



Verse 31 is not the second coming but the time after the Millennium when Christ comes to the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) to witness the judging and lake of fire punishment with his angels.
LOL! This is doctrinal bias at its absolute worst. For anyone to say that Matthew 25:31 is not the second coming requires someone to throw away all logic and common sense and to be as biased as possible.

Is Jesus going to be coming in His glory with His angels multiple times in the future? No! Matthew 25:31-46 is talking about the same coming of Christ as this passage:

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Do you think 2 Thess 1:7-10 is talking about the second coming? If so, then it makes no sense whatsoever for you to deny that Matthew 25:31-46 is about the second coming because they are clearly the same event. Matthew 25:41,46 clearly lines up with 2 Thessalonians 1:9 and these passages place the timing of the wicked being condemned at the time of the second coming.

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

This is speaking of the same timeframe. The second coming is not the end of the world but the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) a thousand years later is the day the old world ends, with the new one seen in Revelation 21, called the New Heaven and new Earth.
But, scripture indicates that Jesus will return at the end of the world/age (Greek: aion). The Olivet Discourse is partly about the time when the temple buildings would be destroyed and partly about Christ's second coming at the end of the age. There is no basis whatsoever to place the end of the world/age at any other time except at Christ's return.
 
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jeffweeder

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31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him,

46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”



Verse 31 is not the second coming but the time after the Millennium when Christ comes to the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) to witness the judging and lake of fire punishment with his angels.

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

This is speaking of the same timeframe. The second coming is not the end of the world but the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) a thousand years later is the day the old world ends, with the new one seen in Revelation 21, called the New Heaven and new Earth.
:Oh no:
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Christ does not return at the time the old Earth is replaced by the new Earth. The second coming happens LONG before the lake of fire judgment and New Heaven and new Earth does. Amillennialism always conflates the second coming with the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) lake of fire timeframes. Revelation 19-20 proves that conflation to be wrong.
But, that is exactly what Jesus taught. And that is exactly what Peter taught as well.

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation...9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Notice something here. First, Peter talks about scoffers in the last days mocking His second coming and asking "where is the promise of his coming"? Then Peter points out that "the Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness", which obviously means He is not being slow to return as some people think. Then a little after that Peter indicated that despite the burning up of the heavens and the earth, "we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth".

So, Peter clearly indicated that despite people scoffing at Christ's second coming and despite God's wrath that will come down against people like that on the entire earth, we (believers) are looking forward to new heavens and a new earth in fulfillment of the promise of His second coming. This shows that the promise of His second coming includes Him ushering in the new heavens and new earth. That is a major reason why His second coming is so exciting because He will finally put an end to sin and death once and for all and will usher in our eternal dwelling place "wherein dwelleth righteousness" and no wickedness.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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The future Millennium is scripture. I advise no one to reject it. Reject the false "now Millennium". The Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) is not at the second coming, see Revelation 19-20 for that.
No one is going to listen to you after this thread. Your nonsense has been exposed. Denying that Matthew 25:31 is about the second coming takes the cake. No one can take you seriously after that claim. Are you going to claim that Matthew 25:1-13 and Matthew 25:14-30 are also not about the second coming even though all 3 passages are clearly about the second coming?
 

jeffweeder

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LOL! This is doctrinal bias at its absolute worst. For anyone to say that Matthew 25:31 is not the second coming requires someone to throw away all logic and common sense and to be as biased as possible.

Is Jesus going to be coming in His glory with His angels multiple times in the future? No! Matthew 25:31-46 is talking about the same coming of Christ as this passage:

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Do you think 2 Thess 1:7-10 is talking about the second coming? If so, then it makes no sense whatsoever for you to deny that Matthew 25:31-46 is about the second coming because they are clearly the same event. Matthew 25:41,46 clearly lines up with 2 Thessalonians 1:9 and these passages place the timing of the wicked being condemned at the time of the second coming.

But, scripture indicates that Jesus will return at the end of the world/age (Greek: aion). The Olivet Discourse is partly about the time when the temple buildings would be destroyed and partly about Christ's second coming at the end of the age. There is no basis whatsoever to place the end of the world/age at any other time except at Christ's return.

Its so so clear the passage above is the second coming. Just back up a sentence or 2.



3 We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater; 4 therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure. 5 This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,


We will all get our relief when he comes again a second time and we will be like him when we see him as he is and put on a body like his Glorious body.

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

Philippians 3:21
who will transform the body of our lowly condition into conformity with His glorious body, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.
 

ewq1938

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Yet, you acknowledge by your interpretation of Matthew 13:47-50 that the GWTJ will occur at the end of the age. Jesus will return at the end of the age.


The second coming DOES NOT happen the same time as the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ). Revelation 19-20 proves you wrong as does other passages.
 

ewq1938

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Is Jesus going to be coming in His glory with His angels multiple times in the future? No!


You don't know what you are talking about. Jesus does not only come here with his angels. He also comes to the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) with his angels. Those are two different events at different times and places but you don't understand any of that obviously.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Its so so clear the passage above is the second coming. Just back up a sentence or 2.



3 We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater; 4 therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure. 5 This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,


We will all get our relief when he comes again a second time and we will be like him when we see him as he is and put on a body like his Glorious body.

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

Philippians 3:21
who will transform the body of our lowly condition into conformity with His glorious body, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.
Right. 2 Thess 1:7-10 shows Him rewarding believers and punishing unbelievers on the day He returns just like Matthew 25:31-46 portrays. The only way someone could deny that Matthew 25:31-46 will occur at His second coming is due to desperation to keep one's doctrine afloat.
 

jeffweeder

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Right. 2 Thess 1:7-10 shows Him rewarding believers and punishing unbelievers on the day He returns just like Matthew 25:31-46 portrays. The only way someone could deny that Matthew 25:31-46 will occur at His second coming is due to desperation to keep one's doctrine afloat.

Yes . It was a promise to the present day Church he was writing to.
He would come having eternal vengeance for those who afflicted them on the day they would be Glorified.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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The second coming DOES NOT happen the same time as the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ). Revelation 19-20 proves you wrong as does other passages.
Then prove it! You're all talk. You do NOTHING to back up your claims. Matthew 25:31-46 SPECIFICALLY says it's about His coming with His angels and you still deny that it's about His second coming! Unbelievable! You lost all credibility with that one. If you had any to begin with. You are all alone with that ridiculous interpretation.

If the second coming does not happen at the same time as the GWTJ, then explain why the following verses will happen at the same time:

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

These verses indicate that the resurrection of believers unto everlasting life and the judgment (condemnation) of unbelievers will happen on the same day, which will be "the last day". How do you reconcile that with your claim that the righteous will be resurrected 1000+ years before the wicked are judged?
 

Spiritual Israelite

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You don't know what you are talking about. Jesus does not only come here with his angels. He also comes to the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) with his angels. Those are two different events at different times and places but you don't understand any of that obviously.
LOL. You have nothing to back this up. Other scripture like 2 Thess 1:7-10 and 2 Timothy 4:1 indicate that he will be judging unbelievers at His second coming as well. So, why deny that?

Why do you not want to use clear scriptures like these as the part of the foundation of your doctrine? Instead, you interpret Revelation 19 and 20 in isolation with the assumption that what is described in Revelation 20 follows what is described in Revelation 19 chronologically despite the fact that the book is not all chronological. And then you twist the rest of scripture to fit your interpretation of Revelation 19 and 20. Instead, you should interpret Revelation 19 and 20 in light of other more straightforward scriptures.

The second coming DOES NOT happen the same time as the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ). Revelation 19-20 proves you wrong as does other passages.
What other passages? I'm providing several passages that back up my view. You have nothing except an assumption that Revelation 19 and 20 are supposed to be interpreted chronologically. You have nothing else at all to support your view.

When you are presented with clear scripture that contradicts your interpretation of Revelation 19-20, what do you do? You embarrass yourself by doing things like denying that Matthew 25:31-46 will occur at the second coming of Christ. If you're going to be consistent then you should deny that Matthew 25:1-13 and Matthew 25:14-30 are about the second coming as well, but I think even you know that it would be ludicrous to deny that.

And you also resort to denying that He will return at the end of the age even though that is what is indicated in the Olivet Discourse. You will clearly go to any length to deny what scripture teaches about what will happen when He returns.
 
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ewq1938

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Right. 2 Thess 1:7-10 shows Him rewarding believers and punishing unbelievers on the day He returns just like Matthew 25:31-46 portrays. The only way someone could deny that Matthew 25:31-46 will occur at His second coming is due to desperation to keep one's doctrine afloat.


This is a continued denial of what Revelation 19-20 shows.
 

ewq1938

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These verses indicate that the resurrection of believers unto everlasting life and the judgment (condemnation) of unbelievers will happen on the same day, which will be "the last day". How do you reconcile that with your claim that the righteous will be resurrected 1000+ years before the wicked are judged?

The verses do not show what you claim they show, and Revelation 20 is clear that the righteous will be resurrected 1000+ years before the wicked are judged.


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Before the thousand years even begins, there are thrones and judgment is given to those sitting on the thrones. Then we are introduced to a group of dead Christian martyrs who come back to life. This is a judgment and resurrection of only the saved. The unsaved are judged at a later time and at a later resurrection: "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" so clearly AFTER the Millennium is when these are resurrected and judged.


Until you accept what scripture says, you will never be on the correct side of this.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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This is a continued denial of what Revelation 19-20 shows.
This is just yet another of your weak arguments that aren't supported by scripture. And you noticeably didn't even bother addressing what I said in my post. Is that because you know you can't deny what I said? I will assume so.

I'm trying to get you to support your claims with scriputre and you don't do it. That says a lot. All you can ever say is "Revelation 19-20". I believe Revelation 19-20 supports my doctrine, too. But just saying so doesn't accomplish anything. What good is that when there's so much scripture that your interpretation of Revelation 19-20 contradicts?
 

Spiritual Israelite

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The verses do not show what you claim they show, and Revelation 20 is clear that the righteous will be resurrected 1000+ years before the wicked are judged.


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Before the thousand years even begins, there are thrones and judgment is given to those sitting on the thrones. Then we are introduced to a group of dead Christian martyrs who come back to life. This is a judgment and resurrection of only the saved. The unsaved are judged at a later time and at a later resurrection: "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" so clearly AFTER the Millennium is when these are resurrected and judged.


Until you accept what scripture says, you will never be on the correct side of this.
Why are you avoiding addressing all of the scriptural support I'm providing for my view? Why are you completely unable to show how your interpretation of Revelation 19-20 lines up with all these other scriptures that I've brought up? That says a lot that you can't do that. When you try, you just end up coming up with embarrassing interpretations such as trying to say that Matthew 25:31-46 doesn't happen at the second coming. How can you think anyone can take you seriously when you interpret scripture like that? And then I showed you that the righteous will be resurrected and the wicked will be judged on "the last day" (John 6:40, John 12:48). No response from you. Why not? Is it not important to you to be able to reconcile your interpretation of Revelation 19-20 with the rest of scripture?
 

ewq1938

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Why are you avoiding addressing all of the scriptural support I'm providing for my view? Why are you completely unable to show how your interpretation of Revelation 19-20 lines up with all these other scriptures that I've brought up? That says a lot that you can't do that. When you try, you just end up coming up with embarrassing interpretations such as trying to say that Matthew 25:31-46 doesn't happen at the second coming. How can you think anyone can take you seriously when you interpret scripture like that? And then I showed you that the righteous will be resurrected and the wicked will be judged on "the last day" (John 6:40, John 12:48). No response from you. Why not? Is it not important to you to be able to reconcile your interpretation of Revelation 19-20 with the rest of scripture?


Start a thread on this, one point at a time and I will address it. This thread is for exposing errors of Amillennialism.
 

Timtofly

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That doesn't answer the question did you read it?

If there's no sin in the 1000 years then what about child who rebels will be instantly killed and placed in Death?

You just contradicted yourself
A dead human is no longer on the earth. A dead human is a dead sinner. Not a living sinner and sin does not enter the world.

Adam kept living in a dead condition called sin. The instant a child disobeys they are dead. Not like Adam's sinful corruptible dead flesh. A person who disobeys is no longer enjoying life, but dead dead. There is no recovering from that state.

Do you not understand that when Adam disobeyed, he let sin into the world? That will not happen in the Millennium. You only disobey one time and you are gone.

We disobey and sin, because sin is in the world. Adam did not have a sin nature nor was there sin in the world. The first time Adam disobeyed, not the umpteenth time, Adam literally physically died and literally spiritually died. That was it for Adam, he was dead. And now living in death, a functioning mortal (death).

The condition we are in now, is not the human condition in the Millennium. One chance and you are gone. If there was sin and a sin nature all would be gone, and the earth empty. So disobedience is not a contradiction, because disobedience is simply breaking the law. Not breaking the law while in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The point now is no one can even obey the law. It is impossible.

Breaking the law in the Millennium will be impossible. However if you do, it will only happen once and then you end up in the LOF when Death is emptied out. But Death is not living on earth as we do in Adam's dead flesh. Death is where one goes instead of going to sheol today.

Before Adam there was no disobedience, because there was no law, and no sin. Now we cannot keep any law, because our sinful nature constantly condemns us to a state of death. In the Millennium there will be laws, but no sin, because people will naturally obey all the laws and suffer no consequences.

The ability to disobey is not a contradiction. It is considered a curse, and that individual is removed from society. Sin does not enter, and people don't live in a dead state of a sinful nature.

Paul does not call Adam's disobedience sin:

"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

I call what Adam did disobedience, not sin, because sin is not a thing. Sin was not in the world. Adam could not have sinned, until he died, and in a state of death. Adam is a type of Christ. Christ obeyed God in all things in His human form, thus a sinless Lamb. Adam disobeyed and broke type, so he lived on in a state of sin, that he passed on to all of us. All those in Christ receive the state of no sin.

But at the Second Coming there is the complete restoration as a son of God.

So Adam did not sin until after sin entered, and after death reigned. Adam disobeyed. That is why Paul said all sinners are not the same as Adam's transgression. Only Adam could disobey God. Eve could not disobey God, because it was Adam's choice to disobey God. You can argue semantics and claim they were the same flesh, but Paul did not. Eve was the one deceived, not Adam.

So once again in the Millennium it will be like it was before Adam disobeyed. But no one will bring sin into the world like Adam did. All they can do is remove themselves from life itself. That is why it is called Death, and not just a place of punishment. Death is the place where those wait who have been removed from the Lamb's book of life. There is no life or getting a second resurrection out of that spiritual death. The death of rejecting the Atonement, and marked for doing so.

Even those born in the Millennium were still all written in the Lamb's book of life before creation and still part of the Atonement Covenant. They are not born into Adam's dead corruptible flesh. But disobedience is still a thing with laws still being a thing, but not the OT Covenant from Sinai. This is that new covenant promised after the 70th week is over. And not the NT Covenant based on Adam's dead state. It is the Covenant of the iron rod, except all are naturally born into obedience. Only, according to Isaiah one can still disobey, but immediately removed, and it will not happen to those past 100 years of age. Which once again, at the end, the largest demographic on earth will be those under 100 years of age born in the last 100 years. The one's who will listen to Satan and an easier target. Just like Eve who was the vulnerable target to get to Adam.