The Pre-Trib Rapture

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Truth7t7

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Because Jesus is sitting on His throne after a coming to earth, on the earth.

God has been sitting on the GWT since creation. Revelation 20, after creation no longer exist, God is still sitting on that throne. In Matthew 25:31, that is Jesus in Jerusalem sitting on a throne as a son of David to rule the earth.

The New Jerusalem is the new place for God on earth and the GWT is no longer mentioned. Revelation 21:22

"And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it."

There is a throne and temple at the Second Coming, the 6th Seal, Jesus sits on per Matthew 25:31. It is measured in Revelation 11. It is part of the 1,000 year reign. Then it no longer exist in the NHNE. There is no temple in the New Jerusalem. The GWT is past tense, or outside of reality at that point.
Jesus Christ Warned His Followers, Concerning Him Being On This Earth In A Millennium (Beware)

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium this being false in deception

Jesus warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
 

covenantee

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If you are that concerned, you can figure out where you interjected into my point to another poster.

As expected, another one of your baseless accusations.

Either provide the evidence of your accusation that I've demanded, or admit to your intentional misrepresentation.
 
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Timtofly

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As expected, another one of your baseless accusations.

Either provide the evidence of your accusation that I've demanded, or admit to your intentional misrepresentation.
Demand?

I pointed out to stop making stuff up pages ago. Now you are demanding proof? Why no demands back then? Don't you know how to go back and see your own post in a thread?
 

Timtofly

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Jesus Christ Warned His Followers, Concerning Him Being On This Earth In A Millennium (Beware)

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium this being false in deception

Jesus warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Jesus warned them to remain faithful and stop listening to theology claiming to be about Him.

How many people claim to be from Christ, who preach about Christ, but literally do not have the truth at all?

That also applies to those who deny Christ even comes to earth. Many people deep in their religion and theology denied Jesus was the Christ the first time. They were just as in the dark as those claiming to be Christ and were not.
 

Davy

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"Flying away to save ones soul"
&
"Hunting souls to make them fly"
Are not the same thing.

You are trying to pull the rapture out of something that clearly describes a form of witchcraft.
This makes you a false teacher and you are lying about the word the same thing you accused me of doing, not supprised because false teachers always point the finger.

Yeah, it's the false Pre-trib Rapture theory, plain as day. God is against it as He showed there. And that Ezekiel 13 prophecy definitely is for the seed of Israel that are members of Christ's body at the end of this world. The majority aren't going to read Ezekiel 13, so God placed His anger at those men who teach it back in The Old Testament so those men could stay deceived all the way to His future 2nd coming.
 

Davy

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I've been studying Historicism for years and I've never heard anyone rigidly teach all the events of Matthew 24 were fulfilled by 70 A.D. - only that some are a "dual prophecy" with application in 70 A.D. but also at the end of time, such as the "AOD", fulfilled locally in Jerusalem way back then, but worldwide at the end of time.

Oh no, not the "I've been studying for years" thing. So did Apostle Paul study under the best Hebrew scholar of his day, Gamaliel, yet he was deceived until Christ converted him.

I realize that some see the not one stone atop another as a dual prophecy. And I agree there are dual-like patterns written in God's Word. The "abomination of desolation" is such a case because of Antiochus Epiphanes.

However, I would never... claim a dual prophecy like Jesus showed in His Olivet discourse was already fulfilled in 70 A.D. like both Preterism and Historicism does. For something to be a dual-type prophecy it means certain parameters of the prophecy were never fulfilled by the historical pattern, and are thus still expecting. Huge stones still atop another of the Western Wall of the old temple complex still standing today is proof of this.

Because Jesus was answering TWO questions: the one concerning the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, and the other concerning the sign of His coming and the end of the world.

You may see it as that, but what Jesus said in Matthew 24:32-34 later bypasses that above thought I put in bold.

Jesus was speaking not just to His disciples with Him then, but also to His Church all the way into the future for the end, because of the Sign of His future coming He gave. And He also gave that future generation that will 'see' His coming that Truth that they would see "all these things", meaning ALL those Signs He gave in that Matthew 24 Chapter.

Matt 24:33-34
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.
KJV


So WHY... do men's doctrines just bypass that above Scripture? It's not really hard to understand. The generation that 'sees' Jesus' coming is to see ALL those Signs He gave in that Chapter, simple as that. So does that include that Sign of not one stone atop another? Yeah, big time! Why?...

Because that "abomination of desolation" event from the Book of Daniel REQUIRES a standing Jewish temple in Jerusalem, along with the old covenant sacrifices established again. That's the requirements per Daniel 11 with the "vile person". And no one can try to say Antiochus Epiphanes fulfilled that already simply because Jesus forewarned about that "abomination of desolation" event AFTER Antiochus Epiphanes had been dead for at least 200 years.
 

covenantee

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Demand?

I pointed out to stop making stuff up pages ago. Now you are demanding proof? Why no demands back then? Don't you know how to go back and see your own post in a thread?

So you've never heard of copy/paste or a post number.

There's another name for an intentional misrepresentation.

Lie.
 

teamventure

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Yeah, it's the false Pre-trib Rapture theory, plain as day. God is against it as He showed there. And that Ezekiel 13 prophecy definitely is for the seed of Israel that are members of Christ's body at the end of this world. The majority aren't going to read Ezekiel 13, so God placed His anger at those men who teach it back in The Old Testament so those men could stay deceived all the way to His future 2nd coming.

It's about a form of witchcraft and NOT the rapture plain as day.
Pre-trib rapture aside
You are too bias to see that passage for what it's about and are using scripture to serve your own purposes.
Good day.
 

Truth7t7

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Jesus warned them to remain faithful and stop listening to theology claiming to be about Him.

How many people claim to be from Christ, who preach about Christ, but literally do not have the truth at all?

That also applies to those who deny Christ even comes to earth. Many people deep in their religion and theology denied Jesus was the Christ the first time. They were just as in the dark as those claiming to be Christ and were not.
That applies to the false teaching Jesus Christ returns to this earth and takes a literal throne in Jerusalem, this will be the Antichrist!
 

Spiritual Israelite

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He doesn't judge the world twice. He judges the dead in Christ, and later judges the world (the unsaved).
That's two different judgment days which contradicts Acts 17:31 which says that God has set one day to judge the world.

The world is the unsaved. The "world" is not the saved/righteous. Why don't you know that?
The world can also include everyone like it does in John 3:16 and other verses. If it only ever meant the unsaved then you would have a point, but it doesn't.
Why don't you know that the context of Acts 17:31 is "all people everywhere"/"everyone", as I showed you? The same ones that God commands to repent, which is literally "all people everywhere", saved and lost, are the ones that will be judged on the day God has appointed.
 
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ewq1938

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That's two different judgment days which contradicts Acts 17:31 which says that God has set one day to judge the world.

When scriptures speaks of God judging the world, it's about the unsaved.


The world can also include everyone like it does in John 3:16 and other verses. If it only ever meant the unsaved then you would have a point, but it doesn't.

Actually it was about the unsaved because it is the unsaved he died for. After that, those that choose Christ became the saved and are no longer part of the "world".



Why don't you know that the context of Acts 17:31 is "all people everywhere"/"everyone", as I showed you?


It's not, you are wrong.


The same ones that God commands to repent, which is literally "all people everywhere", saved and lost, are the ones that will be judged on the day God has appointed.


The saved are not judged at the time the unsaved are. Go ahead and look at Revelation 20. No one at the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) is receiving reward. They ALL go to the lake of fire. The come from dark places like the sea, death and and hell. The righteous are not in those places.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
 

covenantee

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Truth7t7

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When scriptures speaks of God judging the world, it's about the unsaved.




Actually it was about the unsaved because it is the unsaved he died for. After that, those that choose Christ became the saved and are no longer part of the "world".





It's not, you are wrong.





The saved are not judged at the time the unsaved are. Go ahead and look at Revelation 20. No one at the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) is receiving reward. They ALL go to the lake of fire. The come from dark places like the sea, death and and hell. The righteous are not in those places.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
The Lord's fire will judge all mens works, saved and unsaved alike, "Your Wrong"!

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
 

Phoneman777

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What have I accused them of teaching? I have been defending my position. He has his own agenda he pushes, which is neither here nor there. I don't need to understand where historicism is in error to God's Word. Most live in the past, and nothing can change the past. Some are preterist or partial preterist.

The Second Coming has not happened yet, so it is still the future, no?
You said Historicism wrongly teaches that Matthew 24 was fulfilled in 70 A.D., right?
 

Phoneman777

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Oh no, not the "I've been studying for years" thing. So did Apostle Paul study under the best Hebrew scholar of his day, Gamaliel, yet he was deceived until Christ converted him.

I realize that some see the not one stone atop another as a dual prophecy. And I agree there are dual-like patterns written in God's Word. The "abomination of desolation" is such a case because of Antiochus Epiphanes.

However, I would never... claim a dual prophecy like Jesus showed in His Olivet discourse was already fulfilled in 70 A.D. like both Preterism and Historicism does. For something to be a dual-type prophecy it means certain parameters of the prophecy were never fulfilled by the historical pattern, and are thus still expecting. Huge stones still atop another of the Western Wall of the old temple complex still standing today is proof of this.



You may see it as that, but what Jesus said in Matthew 24:32-34 later bypasses that above thought I put in bold.

Jesus was speaking not just to His disciples with Him then, but also to His Church all the way into the future for the end, because of the Sign of His future coming He gave. And He also gave that future generation that will 'see' His coming that Truth that they would see "all these things", meaning ALL those Signs He gave in that Matthew 24 Chapter.

Matt 24:33-34
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.
KJV


So WHY... do men's doctrines just bypass that above Scripture? It's not really hard to understand. The generation that 'sees' Jesus' coming is to see ALL those Signs He gave in that Chapter, simple as that. So does that include that Sign of not one stone atop another? Yeah, big time! Why?...

Because that "abomination of desolation" event from the Book of Daniel REQUIRES a standing Jewish temple in Jerusalem, along with the old covenant sacrifices established again. That's the requirements per Daniel 11 with the "vile person". And no one can try to say Antiochus Epiphanes fulfilled that already simply because Jesus forewarned about that "abomination of desolation" event AFTER Antiochus Epiphanes had been dead for at least 200 years.
You're statement is a non-sequitur, straw man.

When I said, "I've been studying Historicism for years..." I didn't mean "...and that's how I know it's the truth" (though I stand behind it as such).

I meant "...and thus I'm well familiar with what it teaches", and if you'd taken the time to read that entire very short post instead of jumping at what you thought was an opportunity to be critical, you'd have seen that.
 

ewq1938

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The Lord's fire will judge all mens works, saved and unsaved alike, "Your Wrong"!

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Before the thousand years even begins, there are thrones and judgment is given to those sitting on the thrones. Then we are introduced to a group of dead Christian martyrs who come back to life. Even the Amill scholar Barnes believes not only is there a judgment here but also states it is these dead martyrs that are being judged and there is only one judgment for them, eternal life!



John sees two groups of people/souls:

1. people sitting on thrones and judgment given to them
2. souls of the tribulation martyrs who instead of remaining dead are said to live with Christ

Claiming 1 and 2 are the same group doesn't make any sense. Those judging are not the second group mentioned. It can only be that second group of martyrs that were being judged and the judgment has to be a resurrection to life which we know is the reward for the dead in Christ.



We see the same event in Daniel:

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.


Here are multiple thrones and God the Father himself sitting there.


Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.


And here again judgment is mentioned and a large group standing before him. This must be the dead in Christ being judged to life because it cannot apply to the unsaved because the beast hasn't yet been slain:


Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.


This beast of course is also seen in Rev 19 being destroyed at the return of Christ. What we then have been given is a judgment of a group before the beast is destroyed so that group must be the saved being judged to eternal life as we also see in Rev 20.

Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

And just like it is for the thousand years, some "beasts" (the wicked/unsaved/and satan himself) have their lives prolonged. Indeed during the thousand years satan and many unsaved gentiles of the world's nations will live through the thousand years.


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Before the thousand years even begins, there are thrones and judgment is given to those sitting on the thrones. Then we are introduced to a group of dead Christian martyrs who come back to life. This is a judgment and resurrection of only the saved. The unsaved are judged at a later time and at a later resurrection: "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" so clearly AFTER the Millennium is when these are resurrected and judged.


Another example of the righteous being judged separately from the wicked:


Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.


Here we again have judgment of the righteous first! No wicked are being judged with the righteous.


Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Christ does not address time in this but according to Rev 20, there is a period of time inbetween the judgment of the dead in Christ vs. the rest of the dead so we know there is time inbetween these two judgments. Even in human courts there is no such concept of judging someone a reward while judging someone to death. That happens at different times. The two don't belong in one court judgment.


1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

As you can see, the righteous are judged FIRST. Judgment starts with "us" as Peter confirms.