The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Phoneman777]

Only in part. You are missing the actual point. "70AD" is that catch all drawer where all the odds and ends and useless stuff is stored. It is overrated by some poster's eschatology.

Most see that date as, "if we don't have an answer, just slap 70AD on it, and call it good." Who is going to ever read Josephus to prove us wrong?

Even Josephus pointed out that the Romans did not bother to move every stone, but it is your point, to prove otherwise. I have read Josephus. And, no, I am not going to go find a quote to prove your point for you.

So far all you have is the Temple was burned and torn down. That is not even what Jesus claimed. You are avoiding the actual claim of Jesus and the historical account of Josephus.

I've claimed that Matthew 24 is a dual prophecy with parts fulfilled in 70 A.D., the end of time, and some with dual application to both. You denied this by referring to the stones "one upon another". I've shown you the context of "one upon another" is "thrown down" which means "one upon another" refers to carefully arranged stones forming a temple, not recklessly dismantled stones which were haphazardly strewn to the side. If you're argument is that some stones remained assembled until after 70 A.D., so what? We're not dealing with a "Numerically Specific Time Prophecy" but an "Event Specific Time prophecy" which met its fulfillment at whatever point in history the last stone was "thrown down" from atop another.

You won't find any temple building stones that have not been thrown down today, which means the prophecy has already met its fulfillment and Historicism is confirmed.

 

[Truth7t7]

You observe the 7th Day. You already posted that.

I define the Sabbath as per Genesis 2. You define the Sabbath as the figurative point per the 4th Commandment.

As I stated, it's my opinion your wrong concerning the sabbath, as is the majority of your teachings and beliefs in my opinion

 

[Phoneman777]

That is not what the verse says.

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.


Second, A Sabbath remains just not one on a Saturday.

In what place would God be found to have made the Sabbath day on day 7, have it exist during a time when people obey His "voice, charge, commandments, statutes, and laws" all the way up to the Cross, suspend the Ten Commandments between the 1st and 2nd Advents, then return to keeping all Ten including the Sabbath for all eternity?

In the Church of Man-Centered Theology: where God's Word is fluid, man's wisdom is paramount, and the only consistency anyone can point to is their Gospel of Inconsistency.

 

[ewq1938]

That's EXACTLY what it says in the Peshitta.

It's not what the other manuscripts say. I'll go with the majority say and not what some obscure one claims.

 

[Truth7t7]

I've claimed that Matthew 24 is a dual prophecy with parts fulfilled both in 70 A.D., the end of time, and some with dual application to both. You denied this by referring to the stones "one upon another". I've shown you the context of "one upon another" is "thrown down" which means "one upon another" referred to carefully arranged stones forming a temple, not recklessly dismantled stones which were haphazardly strewn to the side. If you're argument is that some stones remained assembled until after 70 A.D., so what? We're not dealing with a "Numerically Specific Time Prophecy" but an "Event Specific Time prophecy" which met its fulfillment at whatever point in history the last stone was "thrown down" from atop another.

You won't find any temple building stones that have not been thrown down today, which means the prophecy has already met its fulfillment and Historicism is confirmed.

A literal temple destruction in 70AD played no part in fulfillment of Matthew 24:2 below

Jesus spoke of his body symbolically being destroyed, and his disciples remembered what Jesus said after the resurrection

The pharisees were looking at and questioning a "Literal" destruction of the temple that took 46 years to build, just as you and historicism claims a literal 70AD destruction was fulfillment "Wrong"

Fulfillment was seen when Jesus died on the cross, and the moment the veil was torn in the holy place the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed, gone, not one stone upon another, as Jesus Christ was now the holy of holies and high priest, the mediator between God and man, after the resurrection and ascension

Matthew 24:2KJV
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

John 2:19-22KJV
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

 

[ewq1938]

In what place would God be found to have made the Sabbath day on day 7, have it exist during a time when people obey His "voice, charge, commandments, statutes, and laws" all the way up to the Cross, suspend the Ten Commandments between the 1st and 2nd Advents, then return to keeping all Ten including the Sabbath for all eternity?

In the Church of Man-Centered Theology:

No, in an imaginary theology that doesn't exist. The 4th commandment was fulfilled and is not in place now nor ever will be.

 

[Truth7t7]

No, in an imaginary theology that doesn't exist. The 4th commandment was fulfilled and is not in place now nor ever will be.

All 10 commandments are alive and well, the early church in Jerusalem was established on the Sabbath

It was Emperor Constatine in 321AD that replaced the 7th day Sabbath to Sunday, making it a law as a day of rest

(Sun Day) A Pagan Day Of Sun Worshippers

 

[Timtofly]

The passage deals with the time of judgment which is BEYOND the opportunity to repent or remain stubborn in sin, so why should we expect to read about it?

That is the whole point, that God still chooses to bring Israel back without repentance.

Your claim was, "that is not possible". Then you wanted proof from Scripture.

God Himself said He'd only gather did not gather them back because they never repented.

What Scripture are you pointing to as "evidence to the contrary" of what I've said above?

Matthew 25:31-46. Can you find the word repentance?

My original quote which was in response to this:

Did you find a case in Scripture where God disregarded His own imposed condition and gathered Israel into the land without them repenting?

 

[Timtofly]

The 4th commandment tells us resting on Sabbath is how to keep it holy, and that - not human reasoning - is how keeping it holy is defined.

Keeping what holy? Every Saturday? Remembering is what keeps the Sabbath Holy. But what Sabbath are we to Remember?

Sinners cannot keep any day holy, just by not working. The Day will be Holy when God removes sin from the earth.

Observing any day as a day of rest is being respectful to God, in acknowledgement that God is Sovereign, and only God can make a part of creation Holy. Since the Cross it should be viewed as a second day of rest, not a replacement of a certain day. God's grace is extended and work cut back to 5 days. It is telling that in the last 50 years, humanity wants to take back all 7 days for labor.

You do realize that there are 2 parts to the 4th Commandment? Six days shalt thou labor. Do you complain when now it is normal to only work 5 days? If you literally keep that commandment you have to work 6 days a week.

Call it crazy, but 6 hours a day, 6 days a week, 6,000 years of creation. That is literally 666.

The 7th Trumpet brings an end to 666. After that people declare themselves punished and remove themselves from God's grace and Atonement altogether.

 

[Timtofly]

If the passage is literal, then Abraham's bosom is literal - you can't claim the passage is literal and then make the elements therein symbolic.

Consistency - the mark of sound exegesis and hermeneutics.

The name is not literal. It is a figure of speech. The literal place was in sheol. There was a literal gulf, or divide between sheol of punishment and the sheol of those redeemed.

When have I stated Abraham's bosom is figurative? Other than just now.

 

[Truth7t7]

Call it crazy, but 6 hours a day, 6 days a week, 6,000 years of creation. That is literally 666.

The 7th Trumpet brings an end to 666. After that people declare themselves punished and remove themselves from God's grace and Atonement altogether.

"Your claim is crazy" found no place in scripture!

The main reason I refrain from response on your post's, left field is a big understatement!

Revelation 13:18KJV
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Call it crazy, but 6 hours a day, 6 days a week, 6,000 years of creation. That is literally 666.

No, that’s 6,012. 666 is 600, 60 and 6.

 

[Phoneman777]

It's not what the other manuscripts say. I'll go with the majority say and not what some obscure one claims.

The majority MSS which say "there remains a Sabbath rest to the people of God" is absolutely no different to the Peshitta saying "duty of the people of God to keep the Sabbath" in principle and thought.

The only difference that exists is in the minds of Antinomianists who HATE the idea of "duty" and want to make everything optional - though Solomon says keeping the commandments is 'the whole duty of man" from the present until God brings "every work into judgment".

 

[Phoneman777]

No, in an imaginary theology that doesn't exist. The 4th commandment was fulfilled and is not in place now nor ever will be.

Memorials don't get "fulfilled", they are observed - and is why the weekly Sabbath will be observed by joyful inactivity - not by frenzied, ritualistic activity as Post weakly argues - throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity.

However, the yearly "shadow" Feast Day sabbaths of Colossians 2 all met their fulfillment in Jesus: Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, and the rest of the Mosaic Law was nailed to the Cross but the Ten Commandments "stand fast forever and ever".

 

[Phoneman777]

My original quote which was in response to this:

God Himself imposed "repentance" as the condition that Israel was to first meet before He would mercifully gather them after punitively scattering them. What Biblical precedent can you point to as evidence to support your claim "God still chooses to bring Israel back without repentance"?

Just the text, please.

 

[Phoneman777]

Keeping what holy? Every Saturday? Remembering is what keeps the Sabbath Holy. But what Sabbath are we to Remember?

Exodus 20:8-11 KJV plainly tells you the Sabbath is to be kept holy by not working and gives the reason for doing so: because God created in 6 days and made one more day for us to "REMEMBER" - and it's the fault of people who fight against keeping it that Evolution exists: How could a man ever get to the place where he declares there's no God when once a week he bows down and worships God?

Sinners cannot keep any day holy, just by not working. The Day will be Holy when God removes sin from the earth.

Yes, Romans 8:7 KJV says sinners can't keep the Sabbath commandment even if they wanted to, but for those who've been "cleansed from all unrighteousness" after confessing it, we'll be calling the Sabbath a "delight" for eternity, unlike those who find God's commandments "grievous".

Observing any day as a day of rest is being respectful to God, in acknowledgement that God is Sovereign, and only God can make a part of creation Holy.

Jeroboam followed your philosophy - set up an entire new religion in the Northern kingdom and even established a new feast day to observe - please read 1 Kings 12 and 1 Kings 13 to find out how much God appreciated that.

Since the Cross it should be viewed as a second day of rest, not a replacement of a certain day. God's grace is extended and work cut back to 5 days. It is telling that in the last 50 years, humanity wants to take back all 7 days for labor.

"In vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men". Let's stick with God's commandments.

You do realize that there are 2 parts to the 4th Commandment? Six days shalt thou labor. Do you complain when now it is normal to only work 5 days? If you literally keep that commandment you have to work 6 days a week.

I speak from experience that if you work 6 days and then keep the Sabbath holy, there's a whole lotta cleaning and mowing and maintenance to fill up Sunday - the difference is you'll be so well rested from the day before, you'll look like a white tornado doing it.

Call it crazy, but 6 hours a day, 6 days a week, 6,000 years of creation. That is literally 666. The 7th Trumpet brings an end to 666. After that people declare themselves punished and remove themselves from God's grace and Atonement altogether.

Who needs to rest on Sabbath if you're only working 6 hours a day? In some countries, that's considered unemployment :cool:

 

[ewq1938]

The majority MSS which say "there remains a Sabbath rest to the people of God" is absolutely no different to the Peshitta saying "duty of the people of God to keep the Sabbath" in principle and thought.

The words DUTY and REMAINS have different meanings. The verse does not contain the word DUTY.

A Sabbath remains, the true one which fulfilled and replaced the old version you keep. This is like someone slaughtering animals for forgiveness VS. one who repents via the blood of the Lamb. The first is OLD, the second is the NEW and current way.

 

[Timtofly]

From your post 2560:

"Stop making stuff up"

That's your post, but you never even posted it.

And yet, you have not stopped making stuff up in regards to my post.

 

[Phoneman777]

The name is not literal. It is a figure of speech. The literal place was in sheol. There was a literal gulf, or divide between sheol of punishment and the sheol of those redeemed.

When have I stated Abraham's bosom is figurative? Other than just now.

What, a literal passage contains symbolism? What do we call a passage that contains symbolism? A parable! If we make the symbolic elements of this parable literal, a volcanic eruption of contradiction occurs. Here's just one example:

Scripture identifies only two kinds of bodies, the "earthly house" and the one "eternal in the heavens" aka the carnal body and resurrection body. Now, when the Rich Man, Abraham, and Lazarus died, what happened to their carnal bodies? That's right - worm food. When do they get their eternal, resurrection bodies? That's right - the resurrection.

So, if this is a literal passage, what the flip is the Rich Man, Abraham, and Lazarus doing with eyes, ears, tongues, fingers, bosoms and legs to carry a warning thousands of years before the resurrection? Before you say a word, remember there's only two (2) kinds of bodies God's Bible knows about so please don't come with talk about "spiritual bodies" or similar extraBiblical nonsense. Only by recognizing the passage as the parable it is, we can then find how the Bible interprets the parable for us.

 

[Timtofly]

I've claimed that Matthew 24 is a dual prophecy with parts fulfilled in 70 A.D., the end of time, and some with dual application to both. You denied this by referring to the stones "one upon another". I've shown you the context of "one upon another" is "thrown down" which means "one upon another" refers to carefully arranged stones forming a temple, not recklessly dismantled stones which were haphazardly strewn to the side. If you're argument is that some stones remained assembled until after 70 A.D., so what? We're not dealing with a "Numerically Specific Time Prophecy" but an "Event Specific Time prophecy" which met its fulfillment at whatever point in history the last stone was "thrown down" from atop another.

You won't find any temple building stones that have not been thrown down today, which means the prophecy has already met its fulfillment and Historicism is confirmed.

Today they have found the same stones in their original location. You have not shown proof they are some place else. You have not given any proof they were ever put back into their original position as seen today. My claim is that many stones are still where Herod told his men to place them. Thus they have not all been removed one from another.

"And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

I have never claimed the temple did not have stones removed in 70AD. You call that a partial fulfillment. That is the only thing in that chapter that can be attributed to 70AD. Josephus states the temple was destroyed in 70AD.

Anything else is still future.

Memorials don't get "fulfilled", they are observed - and is why the weekly Sabbath will be observed by joyful inactivity - not by frenzied, ritualistic activity as Post weakly argues - throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity.

However, the yearly "shadow" Feast Day sabbaths of Colossians 2 all met their fulfillment in Jesus: Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, and the rest of the Mosaic Law was nailed to the Cross but the Ten Commandments "stand fast forever and ever".

And now we have two days of rest. We can work 5 days a week or not. There is no command to not work 2 days. We just get 2 days off. Now we slave 5 days to man. One day for our needs, and one day to give back to God.