The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Phoneman777]

Yet you don't give God any credit for Israel becoming a nation?

Not when He Himself says He's not going to gather them back after punitively scattering them unless they first repent.

 

[Phoneman777]

Sure. We’ve had a sailboat. Wind and Turbulent winds always a factor of consideration.
For reference point size of vessel.
Ours about 40ft with a below cabin, requiring some wind.
Noah’s about 443ft 3 story, with no wind mentioned for 150 days.
Size; Gen 6:15




I referenced Gen 7 as the account per Scripture. Nothing about going “through” rough seas. Nothing about turbulent winds.

It is not my claim about Noah being “lifted up Above the Earth”, it is a claim In Scripture.

Gen 7:
[17] And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
[18] And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.

How High Above did Noah’s Ark go UP above the Earth?
Gen 7:
[20] Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
Fifteen cubits; approx 22+ feet above the mountain tops.

After 150 days, God caused a WIND. Nothing about purpose of the WIND to cause Noah’s Ark to be tossed to and fro.
Purpose of WIND, was to “sweep, abate, assuage” the Water OFF the face of the earth.

Gen 8:
[1] And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters asswaged;
[2] The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained;
[3] And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated.
[4] And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.
[5] And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen.



Sure. God preserves saints “through” times of trouble UPON the Earth.

Point Being; According to Scripture;
There was nothing about Rough seas, Wind causing Noah’s Ark to experience what we know large ships have experienced Because of severe weather Conditions.
* God Controls the Weather.
(Job 5:10 ~ 23:26 ~ 37:10 /Pss 135:7 ~ 147:16)



* I get your point of Gods Power to Preserve men upon the Earth, “THROUGH” troubles.

My Point is:
* Gods FIRST (historical) and LAST (coming) Great Tribulations IS precisely THAT...God Himself SENDING Great TROUBLES Upon the Earth and the Occupants Upon the Earth...EXPRESSLY TO CAUSE TROUBLES for those OCCUPANTS UPON the face of the Earth.

* Consider the DIFFERENCES.
Men upon the Earth “CAUSING” other men TROUBLES.
God “CAUSING” men upon the earth “Great TROUBLES”...and WHY.

* Consider Gods Promises TO WHOM, and WHY.
* God SHALL CAUSE Great Troubles upon the face of the Earth.
* God SHALL DELIVER “FROM” Gods Great sent Troubles.
* God SHALL DELIVER “FROM”, Great Troubles, THOSE people;
WITH HIM.
* God SHALL “NOT DELIVER FROM”, Gods sent TROUBLES, THOSE people AGAINST HIM.

I am not trying to convince you to believe as I do.
I am trying to convince you to Consider the Scriptures of what they do and do not say.
I am trying to convince you to Consider Gods intent, of preserving men “THROUGH” troubles and delivering men “FROM” troubles.
I am trying to convince you to Consider Gods intent, WHEN HE sends ‘GREAT Troubles”, IS expressly TO CAUSE MASS BODILY DEATHS...not “PRESERVE” them....with Him, without Him...MASS Bodily Deaths.

Do you acknowledge the Difference and the Point thereof?


Glory to God,
Taken

It is a truth that Noah went "through" the Flood as an example -- as well as the others given such as Lion's dens, Fiery furnaces, etc. -- that God is well able to protect us "through" the tribulation, and I think it's a massive stretch of the imagination to say Noah was lifted "above" the Flood to show God is going to lift the church "above" the Earth in a secret rapture. I mean, Noah was still down here, for sure, riding out the Flood at the surface, but most certainly covered by the waves.

 

[Phoneman777]

Let's dispense with man's seminary categories altogether, since it is The Word of God that we are supposed... to be staying with.

I showed you what Jesus' disciples asked Him in that Matthew 24:3 verse of what would be the sign of His coming and the end of the world. And are you still going to try and say they were pointing to 70 A.D. with that idea?

I showed you that Jesus answered "when shall these things be?" with details which are EASILY seen fulfilled in 70 A.D., but also have end time fulfillment, as well.

The key is to discerning which elements of Matthew 24 apply to where in history - obviously the part about "as the lightning shineth from the East..." is yet to be fulfilled, but the destruction of the temple was.

 

[Phoneman777]

No, they heard Jesus on the Cross, and came out of their graves at that point. Matthew 27:52-53

There's a difference between when the Bible says "MANY of the bodies of the saints" and when you imply "ALL of the bodies of the saints", right?

 

[Phoneman777]

Jesus' Words do not stand fulfilled.

Your point about one building being destroyed happened. But not the Words of Jesus.

The stones that were one upon another were not thrown down?

 

[Phoneman777]

There was already the one Resurrection. The earth is not a desolate trash heap. There is no 1,000 years between 2 resurrections.

There has been 1992 years since the first resurrection. There will be a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth, and then creation is handed back to God. 1 Corinthians 15:21-28

The Earth will be a trash heap because Isaiah 24 and Jeremiah 4 and 25 and 2 Peter 3:10 say so.

The saints which resurrected at the time of the Crucifixion were "many", not "all". The resurrection is "at the Last Trump".

 

[Phoneman777]

I don't chop off the entire last week. Messiah was the first 3.5 years of the 70th week, but was cut off. Decapitated was the word used.

Prince will be the point the 70th week comes to a close. Daniel's 70th week was put on hold for the fulness of the Gentiles. Daniel's people are not currently enjoying those promises and their Prince ruling over Jerusalem, and all the nations. In fact, instead of righteousness without sin. Instead of a perfect world where Daniel's people will be blessed, you have earth as a desolate dung heap.

You claim Jeremiah over Daniel as the outcome of the Second Coming.

Your fulfillment of the 70th week has left the earth as declared by Jeremiah for the last 1992 years. The Second Coming will finish the 70th week as God intended, and leave the earth as promised in Daniel 9:24.

I know you don't - that's why I told the other person I like that you recognize the problem with chopping off the entire week which the rest of the Jesuit Futurist world can't seem to come to terms with.

However, we can't chop the last 3.5 year off, either. Jesus fulfilled the entire 70 Weeks prophecy and the Bible and many many Bible commentators will tell you.

 

[Phoneman777]

Again, you cannot provide a single scripture showing the mark is related to God's law

Is English your first language? Please read Revelation 16:6-12 KJV and see where the UNMARKED keep God's law on contrast to the MARKED who BTW cannot keep God's law even if they wanted to, according to Romans 8:7 KJV.

If that doesn't satisfy you, sorry. It's plain enough to those with eyes willing to see.

 

[Phoneman777]

All amil and post mill break the Sabbath. They turn it into the last 2 Millennium.

I give them the benefit of the doubt they do so ignorantly. I'm talking about those who will soon be confronted with the issue and become convicted, but choose to make their pastor's word "god" instead of God's word, an outward action proving their inward spiritual choice.

 

[Phoneman777]

Jesus lived under the old covenant, we don't. Jesus never lived under the new covenant as we do.

The OC was the law written on stone, the NC is the same law written on our heart.

If you love God, you'll keep the first four and if you love thy neighbor, the last six. "Love is the fulfilling of the law".

 

[Phoneman777]

There remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

The Sabbath commemorates creation, and is a shadow of the new creation of God's children, who rest in Christ.

Much love!

The Sabbath can't have been a shadow of "new creation" because there was nothing wrong with the "old creation" when the Sabbath was made, right? ;)

 

[marks]

The Sabbath can't have been a shadow of "new creation" because there was nothing wrong with the "old creation" when the Sabbath was made, right? ;)

That's true, but then you have to ask yourself, what exactly was God doing in the beginning?

Because it remains that it is written, there remains a sabbath rest for the people of God, and that we rest when we have ceased from our works.

For we are His workmanship . . . a new creation, where instead of a single day of rest, we have a lifetime of rest.

There needn't be a problem though with original creation for the Sabbath to foreshadow the new creation, and while original creation was declared "good", it was not "intrinsically good" in the way God is, and of course God knew what was coming. He rested from His works, and that stands as our example to rest from our works.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The OC was the law written on stone, the NC is the same law written on our heart.

If you love God, you'll keep the first four and if you love thy neighbor, the last six. "Love is the fulfilling of the law".

Love doesn't break the commandments, but love is not the keeping of the commandments either. Love is love. Not Lawkeeping. I don't refrain from stealing because the Law says, don't steal, I refrain from stealing because I want people to have those things that are theirs. I'm not keeping Law, I'm living love, and that does not transgress Law.

Much love!

 

[Taken]

I realized that, sorry if I gave the impression I thought that was you, I know better.

Much love!

All good. Thank you.

 

[covenantee]

That is why I am not one. You cannot label what you think I am, so not sure why you even try.

If it looks like df, and walks like df, and talks like df,

then ______ .

 

[Taken]

It is a truth that Noah went "through" the Flood as an example -- as well as the others given such as Lion's dens, Fiery furnaces, etc. -- that God is well able to protect us "through" the tribulation, and I think it's a massive stretch of the imagination to say Noah was lifted "above" the Flood to show God is going to lift the church "above" the Earth in a secret rapture. I mean, Noah was still down here, for sure, riding out the Flood at the surface, but most certainly covered by the waves.

God doesn’t “protect” men From tribulations men cause.
God does “comfort” men “through” tribulations men cause men.
Notice of late; for example; the number of deaths by a lab creation, by created pharma, by men losing their livelihood because they will not acquiesce?

God “protects” men From evil, should they desire to convert and wear the armor of God.

Disagree Noah went “through” the flood, when Scripture clearly says he was Lifted up Above the Earth.

Disagree Noah was still down here. Earth is dry land. The water covering dry land, was the destruction of the Earth.
No, wind and turbulence is not mentioned as Noah was lifted up or as Noah was above the mountain tops.

All good. We disagree. I will be raptured BEFORE God sends His Tribulations and Wrath upon the inhabitants OF the Earth for their unrighteousness. Rom 1:18

Should you desire to be On earth during Gods Tribulation and Wrath, perhaps you will get what you want. God is Just in giving people what is their hearts desire.

 

[covenantee]

Because the blooming of the fig tree was the sign of the generation that would see all those things fulfilled.

Scripture interprets Scripture, so there must be at least one other NT reference supporting your blooming speculation.

Luke 13
6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?

No blooms there.

Matthew 21
19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

No blooms there.

Your blooming speculation is a blooming disaster.

 

[The Light]

Trumpets and bowls are both plagues from God, that is their commonality.

In the bowls, the wrath of God is finished. There is no reason to think, so far as I can see, that we should not consider the judgments of the trumpets and the bowls to be expressions of God's wrath.

Much love!

Tell him that Marks. He doesn't think that the wrath of God begins until the 7th trumpet. I don't know what he thinks those 1st 6 trumpets are. The wrath of God is OVER at the 7th trumpet. The bowls are just a different view of the same timeframe.

 

[Taken]

The Pre-Trib Rapture
OP^

Rev 1 - church mentioned
Rev 2 - church mentioned
Rev 3 - church mentioned
Rev 4 - Hey, where is the church?
Rev 5 - Church where are you?
Rev 6 - Wrath of the Lamb

!

 

[marks]

Tell him that Marks. He doesn't think that the wrath of God begins until the 7th trumpet. I don't know what he thinks those 1st 6 trumpets are. The wrath of God is OVER at the 7th trumpet. The bowls are just a different view of the same timeframe.

Personally, I'm thinking that the trumpets are sounded before the middle of the week, and the bowls are after the middle of the week.

Much love!