The Smoke of their Torment Ascends Forever

[Earburner]

Ever since man's fall in the Garden, God the Father has deeply longed (longsuffering) to be part of we, who are His creation. But that day could not come, until God the Son came here to be the Lamb of God for us, as well as for His Father.

Now that He has come, through faith in Him and the power of His sacrifice, we are now able to be restored back to the God, not as our Creator, but rather now as our Heavenly Father, being His very own members of HIS Family.

 

[Earburner]

Very true! Not the actual image being reflected.
No different to the saints when they are immortalized in Christ 1 john 3:2

Amen! That is absolutely correct!!

 

[Earburner]

then why not use aidios?

Good question. I'm not sure why.
Maybe for the same reason that
Moses wrote "breath of life", and not oxygenated air? Maybe it's all for the lack of a deeper understanding of all things?

We must remember the reality of Isaiah 55:8-9.
God must use our lowly and limited languages of words, in order to convey to us His own eternal thoughts and ways.
I suppose, for an analogy, none of us are at all successful, in communicating with a dog or a cat.

But,....for all we who are Born again of His Holy Spirit, we have the Mind of Christ, of whom is now able to effectually and effectively communicate to us ....that is if we have turned our human minds to hear Him. John 16[13] Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

 

[Earburner]

Well, that issue really boils down to what it really means that God created us in His image. Annihilationism, which you seem to be advocating here, is completely unbiblical. As Jesus said, "...an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."

I hope that you understand that our salvation and redemption is a two stage process.
1. We all are being "called" to take part in the first resurrection (who is Christ), by first repenting towards God, through faith in the sacrificial work of Christ. KJV Revelation 20:6.
2. From that point, we are then invited to ask for the Gift of His Holy Spirit, the seal of God, which enables God to dwell within us, and we in Him by faith. Luke 11:13, Romans 8:8-9, Revelation 3:20.

If for any reason we should neglect to follow through on those two points, we have not made our "calling" and "election" sure. 2 Peter 1:10.
Therefore, upon His Glorious return, we ourselves will not be resurrected into the immortality of Christ's likeness.

Having said that, one must come to terms with the simple fact that if His Eternal Holy Spirit is NOT dwelling within us now, upon our death,
there is no hope of eternal existence of any kind.
"Thou shalt surely die". KJV Genesis 2:17
KJV John.3[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned [judged] already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[PinSeeker]

The ability for man to have eternal existence of any kind was never imparted or given to man upon creation.

We are all created in His image. Created, so not self-existing as the triune Jehovah God is ~ in His image. As I said, that means many things, not all of which our finite minds can grasp. But one of them is that we will exist ~ in one state/place or the other ~ into eternity future.

...because A&E chose to partake of the wrong tree first, and not that of the Tree of Life, the opportunity for eternal life was separated from their grasp, when they were booted out of the Garden of Eden.

No, they were "booted out of the Garden of Eden" for doing what God told them not to do ~ "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die" (Genesis 2:16-17). There is absolutely nothing to indicate that Adam and Eve had not yet partaken of any tree in Eden, even the Tree of Life, but only that up to that point they had not yet partaken of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which God had warned Adam of and told him what the consequences would be in Genesis 2:17.

And, die, in that very day, Earburner, Adam and Eve surely did. So right from the beginning, we see that death, in God's economy, is not cessation of existence.

And life, Earburner... true life... is likewise something very much more than mere existence. It is being in the presence of the One Who Himself is life, Christ Jesus, Who is represented by the Tree of Life ~ the Tree of life in the opening chapters of Genesis is a type/shadow of Jesus, the first of many in the Old Testament, and this same Tree of Life represents ~ is symbolic of ~ Jesus in the final chapter of Revelation, specifically Revelation 22:2 ~ "on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations." As your surely know, Christ Jesus Himself says He is "the way, and the truth, and the life... (n)o one comes to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6) And subsequently, He says He is "...the true vine..." He is "...the vine and (we, believers in Christ) are the branches" (John 15:1-5). Yes, Jesus does go on to say in John 15 that "(i)f anyone does not abide in Me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned..." but it is a terrible misinterpretation to assume this means a cessation of existence. Such an assumption would be to refute what Christ Himself said earlier in John 5, that "...an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."

Word-parsing is a futile exercise; the Word of God is what it is, as Peter says, quoting from Isaiah, the grass withers, and the flower fades, but the Word of our God endures forever.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[farouk]

Perish (as in John 3.16) refers to a loss of well being rather than to a loss of being.

 

[PinSeeker]

I hope that you understand that our salvation and redemption is a two stage process.

You "hope I understand..." LOL! I don't completely disagree with your assertion here, though. :) Rather than a "two stage process," it's both a "now" (as in already accomplished and given) and "not yet" (as in an ongoing process) thing. In this life, we are both saved and redeemed and being saved and redeemed. Referring to Paul's great statements in Romans 8 and Ephesians 1 and Peters in 1 Peter 1, we have been foreknown and predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ Jesus (before the foundation of the world), called (more on this calling below), and justified even though still sinful, through faith because of the work of Christ on the cross), and will ultimately be glorified. This is all a work of God. Salvation is of the Lord.

We all are being "called" to take part in the first resurrection (who is Christ), by first repenting towards God, through faith in the sacrificial work of Christ. KJV Revelation 20:6.

There is a general call to the Gospel that goes out to all, yes, but the inward call is issued only to God's elect by the Holy Spirit, Who, as Jesus says to Nicodemus, is like the wind in the respect that "(t)he wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes... So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit” (John 3:8) The Spirit convicts; this is the inward call of God, according to His purpose, which cannot be thwarted.

From that point, we are then invited to ask for the Gift of His Holy Spirit, the seal of God, which enables God to dwell within us, and we in Him by faith. Luke 11:13, Romans 8:8-9, Revelation 3:20.

No, see immediately above. Once we receive this inward call of God, issued by the Holy Spirit, our old heart of stone (dead in sin) is removed and we are given a new heart of flesh (alive to God). In this way we are born again of the Spirit. In this way, God puts His Spirit within us, and causes us to walk in His statutes and be careful to obey His rules. We are no longer dead in our sin, in Adam, but alive in Christ. (cf. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:5-8; Romans 5, Romans 8, Romans 9; Ephesians 1-2, 1 Peter 1). Our salvation depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy, as Paul says in Romans 9. Paul does not say in any way that we do not make free will choices, but that our election/salvation does not depend on said free will choices, but on God, Who has mercy as He wills. God says "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (Romans 9:15-16)

If for any reason we should neglect to follow through on those two points, we have not made our "calling" and "election" sure. 2 Peter 1:10.

Well, yes, but Peter is not declaring in any way that our calling and election depends on us in any way, but rather to act on what we've been given. This is our responsibility to glorify God because of what He's done for us. And we will, actually, because Paul says pretty much the same thing, that we are to "work out (our) own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God Who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:12-13) Paul also says, "...we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

Therefore, upon His Glorious return, we ourselves will not be resurrected into the immortality of Christ's likeness.

This assertion really does not make sense, Earburner. We will finally be like Him. Not Him, of course, but just like Him. And He will truly be with us in Person, not just in spirit, and this will be true life.

Having said that, one must come to terms with the simple fact that if His Eternal Holy Spirit is NOT dwelling within us now, upon our death, there is no hope of eternal existence of any kind. "Thou shalt surely die". KJV Genesis 2:17

See above (post 325). Again, in brief, die, in that very day, as God warned Adam, they (Adam and Eve) surely did. So right from the beginning, we see that death, in God's economy, is not cessation of existence. Conversely, life, true life, is likewise something very much more than mere existence. It is being in the presence of the One Who Himself is life, Christ Jesus, Who is represented by the Tree of Life in Genesis and Revelation.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Earburner]

We are all created in His image. Created, so not self-existing as the triune Jehovah God is ~ in His image. As I said, that means many things, not all of which our finite minds can grasp. But one of them is that we will exist ~ in one state/place or the other ~ into eternity future.

If God imparted a percentage of His Eternal Being into Adam via "the breath of life", as an eternally living soul, how then does all the human race inherit that same portion of God's Eternal Spirit, when they are concieved and born as a child from his/her parents?
I say imparted, because only God is an eternal spirit.

The other factor that no one seems to want to throw into mix, is that every person aside from A&E were generated by "seed", whereby God Himself has not literally created us, as was A&E.

 

[PinSeeker]

If God imparted a percentage of His Eternal Being into Adam via "the breath of life", as an eternally living soul...

He didn't. He did not "impart a percentage of His eternal Being into Adam via 'the breath of life' as an eternally living soul." Did you understand me to be saying that? Surely not. God's eternality is from eternity past to eternity future; He is self-existing. We are not self-existing, of course; we are created. But God is not going to wipe from existence what He made in His own image and even proclaimed to be "very good." So we will all exist in eternity future, in one place or the other, in one state or the other, in one set of conditions or the other. Again, as Jesus says, "an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."

Adam and Eve were created in God's image, but as a result of the Fall, that image was corrupted in Adam and Eve... and all of creation from that time forward. But then there's God's promise in Genesis 3:15, to set all things right again.

...how then does all the human race inherit that same portion of God's Eternal Spirit, when they are conceived and born as a child from his/her parents? I say imparted, because only God is an eternal spirit.

All the human race inherits this condition that Adam and Eve acquired, is imputed the same unrighteousness as Adam. But again, God promises to right this wrong on our behalf.

The other factor that no one seems to want to throw into mix, is that every person aside from A&E were generated by "seed", whereby God Himself has not literally created us, as was A&E.

Ah, this factor is very important. I have addressed it; maybe you missed it. Building on what I said immediately above, in Genesis 3:20, Moses explicitly states that Eve is the mother of all living. This means that as the offspring of our first parents, the state Adam and Eve fell into after having partaken of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is universally inherited from birth. As I said above, Adam's acquired unrighteousness is imputed to all of us at birth, even at conception. Thus our need for a Savior, even Jesus, Whose righteousness can be ~ and is, for us as believers, through faith by God's grace... because of His mercy ~ imputed to us. This is how we are redeemed... by Jesus, our Redeemer, through His sacrifice on the cross.

@farouk said above that "Perish (as in John 3:16) refers to a loss of well being rather than to a loss of being." That's exactly right. And I would piggy-back on that and say that "destruction" refers to absolute ruination, not extinction.

Grace and peace.

 

[Earburner]

For all of your reply, it still does not answer the intent of my question: how is each and all of mankind an eternal soul? How and when do they receive from God, the state of eternal existence upon physical birth?

 

[Earburner]

So we will all exist in eternity future, in one place or the other, in one state or the other, in one set of conditions or the other.

And my question is of course, how are the wicked dead going to eternally exist, since they never were given anything of God or from Him, that is eternal?

You are answering all around that, attempting to force fit your reasoning for the eternal existence of the unsaved wicked, without explaining what it is that makes them to be eternal.

 

[Earburner]

Let's all allow the Holy Spirit, through both Peter and Paul, answer my question, of what kind of future the wicked shall have:
1 Peter 4[17] For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
[18] And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

2 Thessalonians 1[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be REVEALED from heaven with his mighty angels,
[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting DESTRUCTION** from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
[10] WHEN he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Please compare that with Luke 17[28] Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
[29] But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
[30] EVEN THUS shall it be in the day WHEN the Son of man is REVEALED.

** Note: "destruction"- Strongs G3639, to destroy.
In other words, the destruction of the wicked unsaved shall last forever.
Aka, having no future existence of any kind.

 

[Jack]

I think heaven will be filled with people who never heard the name of Jesus :)

No Scripture?

 

[quietthinker]

No Scripture?

here's one Jack ...Zechariah 13:6 And one shall say unto him, 'What are these wounds in thine hands?' Then he shall answer, 'Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.'......can you hear it?

 

[Jack]

here's one Jack ...Zechariah 13:6 And one shall say unto him, 'What are these wounds in thine hands?' Then he shall answer, 'Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.'......can you hear it?

What does that have to do with your comment, "I think heaven will be filled with people who never heard the name of Jesus :),"?

 

[quietthinker]

What does that have to do with your comment, "I think heaven will be filled with people who never heard the name of Jesus :),"?

ohhh, you can't hear it jack :)
If those asking don't know what the wounds in Jesus' hands are about it means they have not heard of the crucifixion; here's a few you might have heard about.....people like Noah, Sampson, Abraham, Job and a whole raft of folk before Jesus time let alone those who have lived in areas of the world the Gospel had not reached

 

[PinSeeker]

For all of your reply, it still does not answer the intent of my question: how is each and all of mankind an eternal soul? How and when do they receive from God, the state of eternal existence upon physical birth? ... And my question is of course, how are the wicked dead going to eternally exist, since they never were given anything of God or from Him, that is eternal?

He gave them life, creating them in His image. Future eternality of being is part of that. I get it; you disagree. But I've been quite clear, and more than once.

You are answering all around that, attempting to force fit your reasoning for the eternal existence of the unsaved wicked, without explaining what it is that makes them to be eternal.

Not the case at all. See above.

Let's all allow the Holy Spirit, through both Peter and Paul, answer my question, of what kind of future the wicked shall have:
1 Peter 4[17] For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
[18] And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

2 Thessalonians 1[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be REVEALED from heaven with his mighty angels,
[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting DESTRUCTION** from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
[10] WHEN he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Please compare that with Luke 17[28] Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
[29] But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
[30] EVEN THUS shall it be in the day WHEN the Son of man is REVEALED.

** Note: "destruction"- Strongs G3639, to destroy.

Yes, yes, fire and destruction. As I've said many times before, this fire is God's judgment. God Himself is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29). Well, but God is spirit (John 4:24), right? Well, both are true, of course, as all Scripture is true, so we have to find how that is resolved. That God is a consuming fire speaks more to His character and what He is about and what He does, rather than His physical or non-physical state of being. It is to say that God is the one and only righteous Judge (among a few other very similar things we could say about it, i.e., regarding believers, that, through our trials, He tests us and purifies us). So:

Unbelievers will be immersed in this fire ~ in His final judgment ~ and there will be no escape. And this destruction is not to be understood as obliteration, or extinction, or cessation of existence, or loss of being. but rather as spiritual ruin that is beyond repair, devastation, utter powerlessness, and devoid of any hope or comfort. This is the result of being removed from the new heaven and new earth, away from the presence of Jesus ~ and in a place of "outer darkness," where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth," which is indicative of their internal tormented (day and night forever) state, and their "worm that does not die" ~ and no longer experiencing any of God's grace but only His judgment. This is their eternal ~ not temporary or fleeting ~ state of being, their eternal ~ not temporary or fleeting ~ punishment. This is the second death. Personally speaking, Earburner, I don't even like to think about it; it literally scares the hell out of me. But it is what it is.

...the destruction of the wicked unsaved shall last forever.

Right. Agreed. But really, from where you stand on this matter, you're really contradicting yourself, although of course you don't mean to be. If this destruction were actually a cessation of existence, it would not be a forever punishment at all, but only fleeting and even momentary for the one experiencing it.

Aka, having no future existence of any kind.

No, but (again) spiritual ruin that is beyond repair, devastation, utter powerlessness, and devoid of any hope or comfort. This is the second death.

 

[Earburner]

He gave them life, creating them in His image. Future eternality of being is part of that. I get it; you disagree. But I've been quite clear, and more than once.

And so have I been guite clear.
I get it, you see unsaved people living forever in some sort of off world community, other than the New heavens and the New earth.
Sorry, you haven't even begun to digest that yet, never mind the issue at hand, that we are discussing. Here is a clue:
"We have this [His] treasure in earthen vessels [our bodies]." 2 Corinthians 4:7.

As you can see, the two schools of thought, concerning "man became a living soul [nephesh]" are fixed as a great gulf between us. Luke 16:26

 

[Earburner]

OK, back to Luke 17
[28] Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
[29] But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
[30] Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
If you recall the event, and the issues leading upto it, among Lot's family, his two daughters and his wife were the only ones who were recipients of God's Grace for being spared. Unfortunately, by looking back, Lot's wife didn't survive the ordeal, after they were told to do two specific things.
1. Don't look back lest ye be consumed.
2. Make sure that you don't travel on the plain.
Well, we both know what happened to Lot's wife for looking back, she was consumed and became a pillar of salt.

OK, item #1, what did Lot's wife "see"?
Ans. She looked upon God Himself.
Exod.33[20] And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

Now item #2. Why were they told to avoid traveling on the plain.
Ans. There would be no mountains or hills that could block their vision, if they should accidently look upon the fiery inferno of God's wrath upon Sodom.

Yes, our God is a consuming fire,....quite literally.

 

[PinSeeker]

And so have I been guite clear.

Acknowledged, you have. That's why I'm not asking you what you mean or believe.

I get it, you see unsaved people living forever in some sort of off world community, other than the New heavens and the New earth.

Well, not in community, actually, but in another place, yes. Community is a gift to us from God, and as such is a grace. But Scripture is very clear that when Jesus returns, upon execution of the final Judgment, they depart from Him (Matthew 7:21-23; Matthew 25:41-46).

Sorry, you haven't even begun to digest that yet...

LOL! Well no, you haven't, not that you can't, but that you just won't, clearly. But that's okay, of course. I'm not saying that what we're discussing is not important, but our agreement on it is really not important in the grand scheme of things.

...never mind the issue at hand, that we are discussing. Here is a clue:
"We have this [His] treasure in earthen vessels [our bodies]." 2 Corinthians 4:7.

As you can see, the two schools of thought, concerning "man became a living soul [nephesh]" are fixed as a great gulf between us. Luke 16:26

And thus begins the oft-visited subject of the soul... :) I'm going to gracefully decline to go down that rabbit hole with you... :) Except to say that Jesus's resurrected body was very tangible ~ all Jesus's disciples and all the others to whom He appeared would surely attest to that ~ and all ~ all ~ will be resurrected in the same way (John 5:28-29). But some will be on His right in the Judgment, and some will be on His left. When it is done, the ones on His left, having been utterly destroyed (spiritually ruined beyond repair, devastated, rendered utterly powerless to change their lot, and devoid of any hope or comfort), will depart from Him, and obediently so. And so will begin their existence devoid of Jesus's presence and the grace of God, their eternal punishment. The rich man in Jesus's parable in Luke 16 is a very graphic example. Like I said, It's so scary, I don't even like to think about it.

Grace and peace to you, Earburner.