The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Spiritual Israelite]

So if there is not a verse in Revelation with "chaos" that literally states "millions will disappear in the air", can we use other Scripture to point out the same event?

Of course.

You really want us to find one isolated verse in Revelation that describes exactly what you want it to?

No, I'm asking for any verse of scripture which says something about this supposed event where millions of people will just disappear and says something about the chaos and destruction that would result from that. Do you have anything? Or are you just trying to distract attention away from the fact that you don't have anything?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Our being gathered to Jesus is a good thing. They were troubled by people saying "the day of Christ is here".

Them thinking that they might have missed the gathering to Jesus would be a bad thing, wouldn't it? I'm not sure why you're having so much trouble seeing my point.

 

[marks]

I see things a little differently
The pre 70th week rapture of the Church happens before the seals are opened as we see the Church in heaven before the throne in Rev 5 and we see 24 elders with crowns in Rev 4. The fullness of the Gentiles has come in and part of Israel has its blindness removed.
The first seal is the rider on the white horse, a false Christ and the 2nd beast, the beast from the earth. He is a king of the north. He is given the stephanos crown which means that he will likely be the secretary general of the UN.
The 144,000 from the twelve tribes are sealed sometime during seal 2, 3 or 4.
Seals 2,3 and 4 are opened in order.
The Antichrist, the first beast shows up and the 2nd beast causes the world to worship the 1st beast.
Seal 5 shows that the great tribulation has begun.
Seal 6 shows that the tribulation is over and Jesus has returned in the clouds for the gathering from heaven and earth. The Church is gathered from heaven and the 12 tribes are gathered from the earth (but not those in the nation of Israel that have fled to their place of protection. Their eyes have not been opened yet). All return to heaven for the marriage supper. We see the great multitude in heaven, which includes the Church, the 144,000 and the 12 tribes.
Seal 7 is the wrath of God. The wrath of God ends when the 7 angel begins to sound. Jesus has returned and set up His kingdom.
Rev 13 and 14 are another view of the seals and Jesus returns for the gathering for heaven earth at the end of Rev 14 and we get another view of the wrath of God in the vials.
Gog Magog happens at the end of the 1000 years.

I kinda got the idea you had a different view. That's why I wanted to lay a bit more out there. I'll need to read through your post a few times to give a meaningful reply. There's a lot there! Good stuff!

Much love!

 

[Phoneman777]

Except for the fact, literally all those mentioned here are enjoying a permanent incorruptible physical body now in Paradise. They have not been held in death by all you living historist throughout the last 400 years. Those same people freed from the papacy, forgot that fact. At the Second Coming Paul states those alive on the earth, need to be resurrected from the death of Adam's dead flesh, and will join those in Paradise. Not an escape. Just the future in that heavenly city not made by human hands, Paradise. This world is not our home. Not for another 1,000 years after the Second Coming.

Jesus says the saints don't rise and go to heaven until the "voice of the Son of God" at the Second Coming. They are resting in their graves, awaiting the Resurrection of the Just.

 

[marks]

I see things a little differently
The pre 70th week rapture of the Church happens before the seals are opened as we see the Church in heaven before the throne in Rev 5 and we see 24 elders with crowns in Rev 4. The fullness of the Gentiles has come in and part of Israel has its blindness removed.
The first seal is the rider on the white horse, a false Christ and the 2nd beast, the beast from the earth. He is a king of the north. He is given the stephanos crown which means that he will likely be the secretary general of the UN.
The 144,000 from the twelve tribes are sealed sometime during seal 2, 3 or 4.
Seals 2,3 and 4 are opened in order.
The Antichrist, the first beast shows up and the 2nd beast causes the world to worship the 1st beast.
Seal 5 shows that the great tribulation has begun.
Seal 6 shows that the tribulation is over and Jesus has returned in the clouds for the gathering from heaven and earth. The Church is gathered from heaven and the 12 tribes are gathered from the earth (but not those in the nation of Israel that have fled to their place of protection. Their eyes have not been opened yet). All return to heaven for the marriage supper. We see the great multitude in heaven, which includes the Church, the 144,000 and the 12 tribes.
Seal 7 is the wrath of God. The wrath of God ends when the 7 angel begins to sound. Jesus has returned and set up His kingdom.
Rev 13 and 14 are another view of the seals and Jesus returns for the gathering for heaven earth at the end of Rev 14 and we get another view of the wrath of God in the vials.
Gog Magog happens at the end of the 1000 years.

Do you see the trumpets and bowls to be different judgments, or different perspectives of the same judgments?

Another question, do you see the end of Ezekiel 39 to be still talking about the Gog/Magog invasion, or do you see that about armageddon?

This part:

Ezekiel 39:17-29 KJV
17) And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18) Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19) And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20) Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.
21) And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
22) So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
23) And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
24) According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
25) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26) After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27) When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29) Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Much love!

 

[Phoneman777]

Sorry, but how does your understanding explain a fulfillment at any point in time? Do you think Jerusalem used to exist a couple of miles away from the location it is now? Jerusalem was rebuilt around 1500, when it comes to the stones used. No one, today, knows what was removed, moved, or constructed at any time in history, much less 70AD. That is guess work and imagination at play. It is scholars in the study of archeology who have all the degrees that the RCC church itself began as human education in many universities across the world, that the Protestants themselves started and continued in the same philosophy that declares your historicism to be valid or not. If you cannot trust the experts over the last 1900 years, you all seem to think, making stuff up will work even better. The point is, the Romans did not remove the whole structure that Jesus said would one day be removed. No one has. They just built over it and kept going. No one cleared out the whole city, and started from zero foundation. And certainly not the foundation that was there, when Jesus said: "verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

There are still stones in the same spot still on top of each other never moved to this day. Did the Romans leave Jerusalem desolate for hundreds of years? Yes they did. That is a fact.

Is that mentioned in the OD? In Luke it is mentioned. In Matthew, no. Does each Gospel contain every single word that Jesus gave at the temple and on the mount of Olives. No they only give bits and pieces of what Jesus said. Was some of that not written down in Scripture, fulfilled in 70AD? More than likely, but the Gospels left out much of that, because they were written and became canon way after 70AD. So most of the words recorded still have a future context, because the Second Coming, some of Daniel, the book of Revelation, and the end were still future.

And nothing during the Reformation changed those facts, no matter how much people posted their versions of theology, in many books of that period. They did not have the internet, and today is no different than the 1500s in human understanding. People still arguing over the same old wrong theology.

Jerusalem was rebuilt at the same time the Reformation was in full swing. Should they have gotten their stories straightened out then?

Before I move on to another point, I like to finish the one on the table.

Would you agree that the context of "not one stone shall be left upon another" is clearly seen to be "that shall not be thrown down"? There's no other way to look at it, and thus, Jesus' prediction about the temple stones stands fulfilled in 70 A.D.

 

[marks]

Thinking that you might have missed the gathering to Jesus would be a bad thing, wouldn't it? I'm not sure why you're having so much trouble seeing my point.

I see the point, but I don't think it's accurate.

This isn't saying "the day of Christ came, and you missed it", it's saying, "as though the day of Christ has "in-stood", that is, is come, in the Prefect tense, which is to say, "As though the day of Christ is come, being here now." Has come, and remains come.

It's like saying, the day of the opening of Disneyland has come, in the Perfect tense, it's not about a moment in time that it opens, and that moment has come and gone, rather, the time of it's opening has come, so it's open. It wasn't open before, and now it is. Like that.

If we substitute "rapture" for "day of Christ", the saying would be, "as though rapture day is here." Not came and went, is here.

Much love!

 

[Phoneman777]

Now we see the ugly interpretation of deception from the 16th century apostasy. This earth is not going to be left a trash heap for 1,000 years.

Course it will. The two resurrections are separated by the millennium, and during that time, Isaiah 24 will be fulfilled, Jeremiah 4 and 25 which speak of global destruction will be fulfilled, 2 Peter 3:10 will be fulfilled, all those verses which speak of global destruction.

 

[ewq1938]

Sorry, but grace doesn't afford you a 10# discount. If you're breaking one, you're guilty of all, and not the least bit "righteous".

Yet again you change the subject away from the fact that no verse in the entire bible says the mark is Sunday worship. The mark is something allowing one to buy and sell, that's it.

Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

This whole Sunday worship/mark thing is made up nonsense.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I see the point, but I don't think it's accurate.

At least you see the point. It takes so much effort sometimes on here just to get someone to see my point. I'm sure you run into that problem sometimes as well as we probably all do.

This isn't saying "the day of Christ came, and you missed it", it's saying, "as though the day of Christ has "in-stood", that is, is come, in the Prefect tense, which is to say, "As though the day of Christ is come, being here now." Has come, and remains come.

It's like saying, the day of the opening of Disneyland has come, in the Perfect tense, it's not about a moment in time that it opens, and that moment has come and gone, rather, the time of it's opening has come, so it's open. It wasn't open before, and now it is. Like that.

If we substitute "rapture" for "day of Christ", the saying would be, "as though rapture day is here." Not came and went, is here.

I can't make any sense of what you're saying because I believe scripture teaches that on the day Christ returns, the rapture occurs and Christ destroys all of His enemies as well. Like Paul taught here:

2 Thessalonians 1:6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

 

[Phoneman777]

Timtofly decapitates and futurizes the second half of the 70th week, along with Messiah's identity as the Prince. He's got the first half right, but not the second.

While I disagree with him, it's great that SOME PEOPLE recognize the problem with chopping off the entire last week and sending it down to the end of time when the nails of the Cross have also nailed down the 70th Week in the annals of history.

 

[ewq1938]

Your assumption that every single symbol has to be explained in order to be a symbol is just flat out ridiculous.

This is yet another strawman fallacy in a long line of them from Amillennialism. I have never said or implied all symbols are explained. What is ridiculous is your interpretation that a sword from Christ's mouth is fire from heaven which literally kills people yet you protest and mock when I say what Revelation 19 says, that a sword from His mouth literally kills people. At least I am in line with what the text says, you aren't.

 

[Phoneman777]

Why didn't you answer my questions? How exactly do you think someone can "keep the commandments of God"? Are you suggesting that you never break the commandments of God?

Friend, the answer to this lies in recognizing the difference between the "Just Man" and the "Presumptuous Man".

The Just Man sometimes slips and falls down into the pit of sin, but once there he cries out to Jesus Who then lifts him up, wipes him down, and sets him back on the Path of the Just. Proverbs 28:13 KJV says there's inexhaustible grace for this man, and he will reach his heavenly destination.

The Presumptuous Man deliberately climbs down into the pit, clears away a spot and sits down comfortably among the filth, swats away the uplifting hand of Jesus, and pushes a OSAS License to Sin in His face. Psalms 19:13 KJV says this man will go straight to hell, all the while thinking he's walking the Path to heaven.

 

[The Light]

Do you see the trumpets and bowls to be different judgments, or different perspectives of the same judgments?

Without question, they are different perspectives of the same judgment...the wrath of God.

Another question, do you see the end of Ezekiel 39 to be still talking about the Gog/Magog invasion, or do you see that about armageddon?

This part:

Ezekiel 39:17-29 KJV
17) And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18) Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19) And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20) Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.
21) And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
22) So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
23) And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
24) According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
25) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26) After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27) When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29) Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Much love!

Armageddon.

I thought you would ask me how I know that the 144,000 are part of the great multitude and are sealed in the 1st four seals and do not go through the wrath of God.

 

[marks]

At least you see the point. It takes so much effort sometimes on here just to get someone to see my point. I'm sure you run into that problem sometimes as well as we probably all do.

Yes!

There's always Reflective Listening, if you are open to that. Where we restate the other's view, and receive correction and restate, until the other person says, Yes, that's what I'm saying.

I can't make any sense of what you're saying because I believe scripture teaches that on the day Christ returns, the rapture occurs and Christ destroys all of His enemies as well. Like Paul taught here:

So when I'm talking about the rapture, I'm meaning a particular point in time when the dead and living in Christ are caught up to Jesus in resurrection/transformation. The dead are resurrected, the living are transformed.

There will be a particular day and hour at which that happens, whether it's pre-trib, or post, or pre-wrath, or the many variations of these.

Given the tense of the word, "has come", lit. "in-stood", as a perfect tense, which is to say an action initiated whose affect remains, this is saying the day of Christ has come, and is here. So if we are using "day of Christ" as another way of saying "rapture day", then the saying would be, "as though rapture day has come, is here."

So my contention is with this idea that telling someone that rapture day has come and is here, why would that trouble them? It would be a moment to lift up your head, for your redemption is oh so close at hand.

It doesn't make sense to me.

If you read it as, "as though the day of Christ has come", with it being a simple past tense, Aorist, then it could be very troubling, what many suppose the verse is actually saying, though it doesn't, "as though Rapture Day came, and you missed it". But that's not the grammar. It's a perfect tense, an act whose affect remains.

It's used of those who worship the beast, Revelation 13:8, who's names are not written in the book of life, this is a perfect tense, and it means, whose names have not remained written. The were blotted out, removed, just like God told Moses in Exodus 32, I think it is. Or maybe 30:32, something like that, The one who sins I shall blot from My book, God said.

In this case, the day comes, remains, it's here. If it's rapture day, it's here. Why would you be troubled? You're about to see Jesus!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Without question, they are different perspectives of the same judgment...the wrath of God.


Armageddon.

I thought you would ask me how I know that the 144,000 are part of the great multitude and are sealed in the 1st four seals and do not go through the wrath of God.

Like I said, there is a lot, and I'm interested in your view.

My thinking is that the 144,000 are on earth for the first half of the week, and are then translated into heaven. I have the barest evidence of that, to be sure, it's just what makes sense to me.

I think the great multitude before the throne is the raptured church, seen in heaven as the 144,000 are sealed on the earth. John's use of ek and apo, he uses one for the other in a number of places, and if this passage is one where he used the other word, it can mean, "these are they who have come away from the great tribulation". And the placement makes a lot of sense to me also.

Tell me about the 144,000, what are your thoughts?

Much love!

 

[Phoneman777]

Yet again you change the subject away from the fact that no verse in the entire bible says the mark is Sunday worship. The mark is something allowing one to buy and sell, that's it.

Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

This whole Sunday worship/mark thing is made up nonsense.

No one claims the Bible explicitly says the Mark is Sunday sacredness - we say its implicit, so please stop with this ridiculous strawman, OK?

The Bible is clear the Mark has something to do with breaking God's commandments - and nothing to do with a silly "chip" that even a fool would gladly dig out with a rusty knife if it meant missing out on heaven.

 

[ewq1938]

The Bible is clear the Mark has something to do with breaking God's commandments

Clear? Quote it please. I quoted scripture that is actually clear what the mark is about and it's not related to worship or Sunday.

- and nothing to do with a silly "chip" that even a fool would gladly dig out with a rusty knife if it meant missing out on heaven.

This is a red herring fallacy to distract from the actual topic. Get back on topic please.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is yet another strawman fallacy in a long line of them from Amillennialism. I have never said or implied all symbols are explained. What is ridiculous is your interpretation that a sword from Christ's mouth is fire from heaven which literally kills people yet you protest and mock when I say what Revelation 19 says, that a sword from His mouth literally kills people. At least I am in line with what the text says, you aren't.

If I say that Satan looks like a dragon with seven heads and ten horns does that mean I'm in line with what the text says? What a ridiculous line of reasoning.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So when I'm talking about the rapture, I'm meaning a particular point in time when the dead and living in Christ are caught up to Jesus in resurrection/transformation. The dead are resurrected, the living are transformed.

There will be a particular day and hour at which that happens, whether it's pre-trib, or post, or pre-wrath, or the many variations of these.

Of course. We all believe that.

Given the tense of the word, "has come", lit. "in-stood", as a perfect tense, which is to say an action initiated whose affect remains, this is saying the day of Christ has come, and is here. So if we are using "day of Christ" as another way of saying "rapture day", then the saying would be, "as though rapture day has come, is here."

Okay...

So my contention is with this idea that telling someone that rapture day has come and is here, why would that trouble them? It would be a moment to lift up your head, for your redemption is oh so close at hand.

It's an actual 24 hour day in the future at which point when that day arrives then some time during that day it will happen. You're acting like "the day of Christ" is a period of time when scripture teaches no such thing. Instead, it teaches that it's the day Christ returns and we're gathered to Him.

It doesn't make sense to me.

If you read it as, "as though the day of Christ has come", with it being a simple past tense, Aorist, then it could be very troubling, what many suppose the verse is actually saying, though it doesn't, "as though Rapture Day came, and you missed it". But that's not the grammar. It's a perfect tense, an act whose affect remains.

It's used of those who worship the beast, Revelation 13:8, who's names are not written in the book of life, this is a perfect tense, and it means, whose names have not remained written. The were blotted out, removed, just like God told Moses in Exodus 32, I think it is. Or maybe 30:32, something like that, The one who sins I shall blot from My book, God said.

In this case, the day comes, remains, it's here. If it's rapture day, it's here. Why would you be troubled? You're about to see Jesus!

Sorry, but I just can't make any sense out of what you're saying. Since when does scripture teach that people would know that "rapture day" is here before even being raptured (caught up to meet Christ)?

Scripture teaches that there is an actual future day during which, at some point on that day, Jesus will return, we will be caught up to Him and He will destroy His enemies. For them to hear that day has already come doesn't line up with that, so that's why Paul told them to not believe any nonsense about the day supposedly having already arrived. That was impossible. For one thing, there first had to be a falling away and the man of sin being revealed, and another thing is that there wouldn't still be mortals walking around on earth after that day because believers will all be changed to have immortal bodies and unbelievers will all be killed.

Can you please tell me how you interpret this passage:

2 Thessalonians 1:6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.