The Pre-Trib Rapture

[covenantee]

I've concluded that those in Christ will be caught up to Jesus at the beginning of the 70th week. However, I am aware of others who think the same way.

But it would be a mistake to think that I hold the view I do because someone else does. And you will find if you wish to explore my view that I don't think of this in all the same ways as others you may be used to.

Much love!

So back to what we've agreed upon -- there is no harpadzo in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, confirmed by Strong/Thayer, and all English Bible versions.

 

[marks]

So back to what we've agreed upon -- there is no harpadzo in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, confirmed by Strong/Thayer, and all English Bible versions.

Yes, this:


Does not appear in this:




So yes, in this we are agreed.

Much love!

 

[teamventure]

You can't be serious. You never heard the Gospel song, "I'll Fly Away"?

I think it was country singer Jim Reeves that originally did that song, but it's a favorite of many Pre-trib Rapture Churches, as they use it to point to their so-called 'rapture' theory.

And the Ezekiel 13 subject is... about the idea of flying away to save one's soul. Viola! The pre-trib rapture theory, and God is against it!

You missed my point entirely. I wasn't implying that there's no belief in a rapture.
The passage of scripture about hunting souls doesn't sound like the rapture but something entirely different that you have no explanation for.

 

[marks]

Pre-tribbers do nothing more than take the Lords second coming and claim its a pre-trib rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 this being just one example

I don't think you understand the pre-trib view, if this is your idea. The point is, the second coming in Matthew 24 cannot include the rapture due to the insurmountable conflicts that arise if you think of that as including the rapture.

In fact, pre-trib is exactly opposite what you've said here. We claim the rapture of the church is something different from Jesus' coming in power and glory.

Much love!

 

[The Light]

I don't think you understand the pre-trib view, if this is your idea. The point is, the second coming in Matthew 24 cannot include the rapture due to the insurmountable conflicts that arise if you think of that as including the rapture.

In fact, pre-trib is exactly opposite what you've said here. We claim the rapture of the church is something different from Jesus' coming in power and glory.

Much love!

And yet what most do not understand is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 does occur at the 7th trumpet or vial, it occurs at the 6th seal, prior to the wrath of God.

 

[marks]

And yet what most do not understand is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 does occur at the 7th trumpet or vial, it occurs at the 6th seal, prior to the wrath of God.

For myself, this is how I see things,

The Seals 1-5 are opened all at once.
The church is raptured.
Gog/Magog invasion is happening at this time.
Seal 6 is opened.
144,000 Jews are seals as the church is in heaven before the throne.
The 7th seal is opened, beginning the 70th week
The Trumpets are sounded, the first accomplishing the destruction of Gog/Magog (militarized Islamic nations + Russia).
The middle of the week:
Satan is cast to the earth.
The Man of Sin sits in the temple.
The Two Witnesses, having prophesied for 3.5 years, are killed.
Israelites from Jerusalem and Judea flee to the wilderness.
The Great Tribulation has begun.
The Vials are poured out, and Babylon destroyed.
The armies of the nations are gathered to Armageddon.
Jesus returns.
The beast and false prophet are tossed into the Lake of Fire.
Satan is bound.
Isreal is regathered to the promised land.
The remaining nations are gathered and judged according to how they treated the Israelites.
Those who survive will enter Jesus' kingdom.
The OT saints are raised.
God re-weds Israel, the wedding feast of the Lamb and His bride. Guests are the survivors.
Jesus rules the earth from Jerusalem for 1000 years.
Satan is released a short while, deceives the nations into attacking the Holy City.
They are all destroyed.
Heaven and earth are gone, and all the dead of all time stand before Jesus to be judged.
God creates a new heaven and new earth, in which righteousness lives.
His servants shall serve Him . . .

Much love!

 

[Phoneman777]

Those 3.5 years are half of the 70th week.
Jesus as Prince at the Second Coming is the last half. Jesus from baptism to the Cross, as the anointed one, is the first half, as Messiah, then the week was cut off.

Agreed. I hold the unpopular interpretation that "...unto Messiah the Prince" can only refer to Jesus' baptism where He was "anointed" ("Messiah") by the Holy Spirit, which marked the end of the 69 Weeks and the start of the 70th.

 

[Phoneman777]

Existing past the 6 days of labor is also breaking the 4th Commandment. It says 6 days shalt thou labor. Once those 6,000 years are over, Adam's flesh just existing is breaking the 4th Commandment. The punishment is up at the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 10:5-7

The 6,000 years Creation is almost up...I think the millennium will be a type of the "7th" day.

 

[covenantee]

Agreed. I hold the unpopular interpretation that "...unto Messiah the Prince" can only refer to Jesus baptism where he was "anointed" ("Messiah") by the Holy Spirit, which marked the end of the 69 Weeks and the start of the 70th.

Timtofly decapitates and futurizes the second half of the 70th week, along with Messiah's identity as the Prince. He's got the first half right, but not the second.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How exactly can a husband go home to his own wife every night, except that he LOVES her, while other men cheat on their wives incessantly?

If we love Jesus, we'll keep His commandments". (John 14:15 KJV)

Why didn't you answer my questions? How exactly do you think someone can "keep the commandments of God"? Are you suggesting that you never break the commandments of God?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

A sword is not fire from heaven. That is an obvious manipulation on the part of Amillennialism. It is not even in line with normal interpretation of symbolism.

Normal interpretation of symbolism? What is that? I'll tell you what it's not. Symbols are not required to resemble what they symbolize in reality as you seem to think is the case. If that was true then that would mean Satan looks something like a dragon with seven heads and ten horns.

2 Peter does not show Christ destroying his enemies with fire, nor is it even related to the second coming.

Of course it's related to the second coming. That's why in 2 Peter 3:13 Peter said we look forward to the new heavens and new earth according to the promise, which should be easily recognized as being the promise of His coming just like the same promise previously mentioned in verses 4 and 9.

2 Thess is about the second coming but no fire is used against any enemy.

So, He will just come in flaming fire as a threat to His enemies while He somehow uses a SYMBOLIC sword to LITERALLY kill them?

You rarely if ever cite Revelation.

That is simply not true, but I do prefer to cite more clear scripture when supporting my doctrine.

At least Premillennialists can cite and properly understand all related passages including the two you presented out of context. (neither show fire used to kill enemies)

Haha. Sure. That's good one that you're claiming that Premillennialists properly understand passages in Revelation.

Which again shows ignorance of Revelation 17 which explains what those things are. You employ a strawman fallacy when you suggest Premills don't understand the beast and it's heads and horns are symbolic of other things. This shows your desperation for anything to show errors by Premills. You find none, so you invent some.

Your assumption that every single symbol has to be explained in order to be a symbol is just flat out ridiculous.

 

[Phoneman777]

The righteous always obey the commandments, nothing new there. That doesn't make the mark related to Sunday worship. Someone made that up and did not base it on the bible.

Sorry, but grace doesn't afford you a 10# discount. If you're breaking one, you're guilty of all, and not the least bit "righteous".

This is known as a red herring fallacy. You are changing the discussion from the mark being Sunday worship to basically anything else. Psalm 94 has nothing to do with the mark or SW.

Nope, just showing the progression of logic which leads to why I say Sunday sacredness is the Mark of the Papal Beast. Logic that proves Satan is going to be using false commandments to deceive "Christians" - and man is he good at it.

There is no connection at all. SDA's are alone on this.

So what? You should know when the SDAs organized in 1863, they "ALONE" adopted as core Biblical doctrine the soon return of Jesus - hence the name "Adventists" - while the rest of the entire Christian world was preaching post-millennialism and persecuting and disfellowshipping anyone who disagreed, and continued to do so for the next 75 years. Only when Billy Graham started preaching our message of Christ's soon return did the rest of the Christian world climb on board with us, without one word of apology. So, before you start running your mouth about how "alone" we are in our views, you need to get your church history straight.

Again, this is not from the bible. The mark in the bible allows those who serve the beast to buy and sell, that's it. Nothing about worship or Sunday, just buying or selling.

It's not there explicitly, but is there implicitly. Why don't you just go ask the Beast what their "Mark" is?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Seems there would have to be a mass revival so people can fall away.

What are you saying, that you disagree that there will be a mass falling away before Christ's return? If so, then tell me how you interpret 2 Thess 2:1-3.

 

[Phoneman777]

How can you say everything ceased to exist in the first century? The Catholic Church had not even existed itself in the first century.

I don't. I'm not a Jesuit Preterist -- neither am I a Jesuit Futurist, I'm a Protestant Historicist.

 

[Phoneman777]

Does God have anything to do with the blooming of anything?

If God is not in charge of creation, who have you replaced God with?

What does a fig tree in bloom mean to you, if not actually in bloom?

I'm going to say it again: God had nothing to do with the events of 1948, but y'know who did? The U.S., the Papacy, and the occult societies which were in charge then just as they're in charge today. What better way to solidify Jesuit Futurism in the minds of "protestants" than to "reestablish Israel in the land", the planning of which goes back to 1870's Albert Pike, the leader of Scottish Rite Freemasonry. Check out "Pikes 3 World Wars" and you'll see it's true.

I can't throw God and His Word out the window, and refuse to acknowledge the condition God Himself imposed upon Israel concerning the gathering of them back to the land after they'd been scattered for disobedience: repentance.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Armageddon has no fire, because that is not the Second Coming. Armageddon is the last of the last of humanity on earth. The Second Coming happened more than 42 months before Armageddon. Amil forget the Day of the Lord is 1,000 years. But before it can really be declared a go, all this wicked dead flesh of Adam's descendants has to be cleaned up, and put in the trash bin.

This is complete nonsense. If you can't even discern that Revelation 19 depicts the second coming, then I'm not sure what you can discern.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, the Day of Christ.

I'm talking about the rapture.

And what Paul wrote was not "Mass falling away", he wrote "apostasia", which is a departure, and was commonly used in reference to departing from the faith, but also means plain and simple departure.

Now, you can argue that this is not the correct interpretation here, but I do not understand why someone would argue that this isn't what the word itself means.

And he said it would be before the day of Christ, but he did not say it would be before our being gathered to him.

Look at the passage. What I'm saying here is true.

What you're saying here is very far from true. The day of Christ is simply another way of referring to His coming and our being gathered to Him. There is no basis whatsoever for claiming that the day of Christ (day of the Lord) Paul referenced in 2 Thess 2:1 is some other event than the day of Christ he mentioned in 2 Thess 2:2.

 

[The Light]

For myself, this is how I see things,

The Seals 1-5 are opened all at once.
The church is raptured.
Gog/Magog invasion is happening at this time.
Seal 6 is opened.
144,000 Jews are seals as the church is in heaven before the throne.
The 7th seal is opened, beginning the 70th week
The Trumpets are sounded, the first accomplishing the destruction of Gog/Magog (militarized Islamic nations + Russia).
The middle of the week:
Satan is cast to the earth.
The Man of Sin sits in the temple.
The Two Witnesses, having prophesied for 3.5 years, are killed.
Israelites from Jerusalem and Judea flee to the wilderness.
The Great Tribulation has begun.
The Vials are poured out, and Babylon destroyed.
The armies of the nations are gathered to Armageddon.
Jesus returns.

I see things a little differently
The pre 70th week rapture of the Church happens before the seals are opened as we see the Church in heaven before the throne in Rev 5 and we see 24 elders with crowns in Rev 4. The fullness of the Gentiles has come in and part of Israel has its blindness removed.
The first seal is the rider on the white horse, a false Christ and the 2nd beast, the beast from the earth. He is a king of the north. He is given the stephanos crown which means that he will likely be the secretary general of the UN.
The 144,000 from the twelve tribes are sealed sometime during seal 2, 3 or 4.
Seals 2,3 and 4 are opened in order.
The Antichrist, the first beast shows up and the 2nd beast causes the world to worship the 1st beast.
Seal 5 shows that the great tribulation has begun.
Seal 6 shows that the tribulation is over and Jesus has returned in the clouds for the gathering from heaven and earth. The Church is gathered from heaven and the 12 tribes are gathered from the earth (but not those in the nation of Israel that have fled to their place of protection. Their eyes have not been opened yet). All return to heaven for the marriage supper. We see the great multitude in heaven, which includes the Church, the 144,000 and the 12 tribes.
Seal 7 is the wrath of God. The wrath of God ends when the 7 angel begins to sound. Jesus has returned and set up His kingdom.
Rev 13 and 14 are another view of the seals and Jesus returns for the gathering for heaven earth at the end of Rev 14 and we get another view of the wrath of God in the vials.
Gog Magog happens at the end of the 1000 years.

 

[Phoneman777]

The Earth is Dry Land. Destruction of the Land was making the Dry Land Wet.

Noah did not go through the Water. Noah was lifted up BY the Water.

Gen 7 is the account, whereby Noah, his family, the required animals were all entered into the ark that Noah prepared according to Gods instructions. Once all were entered into the ark, God shut the door.
SEVEN days passed, Then the rain began to fall and seven days later the earth was covered with water, and the ark was LIFTING UP.
More water from rain and fountains (oceans) from under the earth, rose up and increased the water upon the earth.
The ark resting ON THE FACE OF THE WATERS LIFTED UP higher and higher.
Water continues rising, Noah continues rising higher and higher UP off the face of the Earth, while the Earth is being destroyed.

Nearly 23 Feet Above the mountain tops Noah was LIFTED UP off the Face of the Earth.
Just a wild guess, but I suspect with all that rain, Noah was IN THE CLOUDS.

Christ Jesus, had several things to Accomplish when He (JESUS, the Word of God came forth out of Gods mouth) and was sent to Earth in a body God prepared, and later revealed He IS the CHIRST (the power, wisdom, seed, spirit) of God.
On the cross where Jesus’ Body was hung, He Knowing all things He was sent to do Were Accomplished, He said, it is FINISHED.

One of the highlights Jesus Accomplished was to establish His Church, and Offer ALL willing men the Offering to receive His Forgiveness, Salvation of their soul, Quickening of their spirit, His Spirit to dwell IN them, The Use of His body for men to dwell IN, IF they willingly would lay down their own bodily life for Him and Accept His Offerings.

Those who have accepted His Offering, (according to His Order and Way), are they called the Converted, the Church, IN Christ.

They are those WHO, similar to Noah who was saved bodily, (before Salvation was offered or given a man still physically alive in his flesh),
SHALL ALSO be LIFTED UP off the face of the Earth, to the Clouds, While the Earth and its inhabitants are being ... killed bodily then soul saved....killed bodily then not soul saved.

It matters not, If you trust what I say, Probably doesn’t matter if you believe what Scripture says on the matter. The bottom line is;
The Converted IN Christ already have a Secure ever lasting relationship with the Lord God and are Prepared for whatever, this day, that day, Their Lord will summon them UP OFF the face of the Earth, while the Earth and its inhabitants Experience horrific death and destruction.

BTW, Then will that little sliver of present day Israel...the whole of the Land Promised to Abraham be claimed by Abrahams faithful heirs...
Boundaries of Christ Jesus’ Kingdom, and He heir to king David’s everlasting Throne, Reigning with His saints.

Glory to God,
Taken

Have you ever heard of ships sailing "through" rough seas? That same water you claim lifted Noah "up" was also crashing down all around him, above him, over from one side to the other of him, inundating him.

As I said, God preserved Noah "through" the Flood down here, not above the destruction up there, and God will preserve the saints "through" the time of trouble because Jesus already asked the Father not to take us out of this world, but "keep" us just as He safely kept Noah, Daniel, Israel, and the rest down here in the midst of danger.

I mean, which is a better demonstration of God's preserving power? I don't believe for one minute Samson was a muscle-bound freak of nature: guaranteed he looked like a 90 pound weakling so God could get all the glory and credit.

 

[marks]

What you're saying here is very far from true. The day of Christ is simply another way of referring to His coming and our being gathered to Him. There is no basis whatsoever for claiming that the day of Christ (day of the Lord) Paul referenced in 2 Thess 2:1 is some other event than the day of Christ he mentioned in 2 Thess 2:2.

Our being gathered to Jesus is a good thing. They were troubled by people saying "the day of Christ is here".

Why would you be troubled by my telling you, "Rapture Day is here." You wouldn't be, would you? You'd be expecting to meet Jesus, and if it didn't happen, you'd just know I was wrong.

Much love!