The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Timtofly]

Why do I need to read it when I accurately described it?

Question (1) was "when shall these things (destruction of the temple) be, and (2) was what shall be the sign of the Second Coming/End of the world, which happen simultaneously. According to 2 Peter 3:10 which says when Jesus comes as a thief in the night, there won't be 7 more minutes let alone 7 more years.

How can you say everything ceased to exist in the first century? The Catholic Church had not even existed itself in the first century.

There were two points to that last question. The Second Coming is not the end. Jesus never said when the end of everything happens.

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

Nothing in there about the temple nor the Second Coming.

 

[Timtofly]

God had nothing to do with the events of 1948. Proof: The promise that God would gather the Israelites back to the land after He's scattered them for disobedience was always dependent upon one important condition: repentance. You will search in vain for any Biblical occasion where God gathered an impenitent Israelite nation back to the land.

Have the people who occupy the land of ancient Israel ever repented and accepted Jesus? No, they call Him "son of a whore" and "the Great Imposter".

Does God have anything to do with the blooming of anything?

If God is not in charge of creation, who have you replaced God with?

What does a fig tree in bloom mean to you, if not actually in bloom?

 

[Taken]

God preserved Noah "through" the Flood down here, not above it up there.

The Earth is Dry Land. Destruction of the Land was making the Dry Land Wet.

Noah did not go through the Water. Noah was lifted up BY the Water.

Gen 7 is the account, whereby Noah, his family, the required animals were all entered into the ark that Noah prepared according to Gods instructions. Once all were entered into the ark, God shut the door.
SEVEN days passed, Then the rain began to fall and seven days later the earth was covered with water, and the ark was LIFTING UP.
More water from rain and fountains (oceans) from under the earth, rose up and increased the water upon the earth.
The ark resting ON THE FACE OF THE WATERS LIFTED UP higher and higher.
Water continues rising, Noah continues rising higher and higher UP off the face of the Earth, while the Earth is being destroyed.

Nearly 23 Feet Above the mountain tops Noah was LIFTED UP off the Face of the Earth.
Just a wild guess, but I suspect with all that rain, Noah was IN THE CLOUDS.

Christ Jesus, had several things to Accomplish when He (JESUS, the Word of God came forth out of Gods mouth) and was sent to Earth in a body God prepared, and later revealed He IS the CHIRST (the power, wisdom, seed, spirit) of God.
On the cross where Jesus’ Body was hung, He Knowing all things He was sent to do Were Accomplished, He said, it is FINISHED.

One of the highlights Jesus Accomplished was to establish His Church, and Offer ALL willing men the Offering to receive His Forgiveness, Salvation of their soul, Quickening of their spirit, His Spirit to dwell IN them, The Use of His body for men to dwell IN, IF they willingly would lay down their own bodily life for Him and Accept His Offerings.

Those who have accepted His Offering, (according to His Order and Way), are they called the Converted, the Church, IN Christ.

They are those WHO, similar to Noah who was saved bodily, (before Salvation was offered or given a man still physically alive in his flesh),
SHALL ALSO be LIFTED UP off the face of the Earth, to the Clouds, While the Earth and its inhabitants are being ... killed bodily then soul saved....killed bodily then not soul saved.

It matters not, If you trust what I say, Probably doesn’t matter if you believe what Scripture says on the matter. The bottom line is;
The Converted IN Christ already have a Secure ever lasting relationship with the Lord God and are Prepared for whatever, this day, that day, Their Lord will summon them UP OFF the face of the Earth, while the Earth and its inhabitants Experience horrific death and destruction.

BTW, Then will that little sliver of present day Israel...the whole of the Land Promised to Abraham be claimed by Abrahams faithful heirs...
Boundaries of Christ Jesus’ Kingdom, and He heir to king David’s everlasting Throne, Reigning with His saints.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[n2thelight]

I guess you can find out such fear at the point you are about to be beheaded. How else is that fear realistically explained or understood?

When did I attach fear to a beheading?

Every one on earth not part of the church will be left on earth. You think people are instantly going to die at the appearance of the Lamb? What verse declares that point? Many teach an instant resurrection at the Second Coming, but don't they have to die first to be resurrected? The Second Coming catches many humans alive and not all are dead at the Second Coming. Armageddon is not the Second Coming. How do you fit Armageddon into Revelation 6:12-17? Where does it state people are killed in the 6th Seal? They are alive enough to be hiding.

Christ comes to earth ,so who's left .
People will instantly be changed to be like those who have already died, those whom Christ brings with Him .

People in the 6th seal trump and vial are spiritually dead as they fell for the deception

The flesh dies , the soul stands a chance to die the 2nd death

When Christ returns those who have been deceived by satan pretending to be Christ will want to die at the sight of the true Christ, that's why they want the rocks to fall on them, they want to die because the shame will be great

They will seek death but won't find it , as again they will be changed.

No one who has ever lived is dead ,one must learn the importance between flesh and soul

 

[Timtofly]

Huh? Worry? It isn't about being worried. It's about being deceived. If you are already deceived by the Antichrist now, how much more so tomorrow unless you are given a different perspective of scripture and prophecy?

Worried, troubled, deceived. All the same emotional state.

 

[Timtofly]

God preserved Noah "through" the Flood down here, not above it up there. He also preserved Israel "through" the 7 last plagues, preserved Daniel "through" the lion's den, preserved the 3 Hebrew worthies "through" the furnace, preserved Esther's people "through" the death decree; Jesus prayed for God to not "take them out of this world" but to preserve us while in it. The Psalmist pictured the destruction falling all around us on all sides, not beneath us as we watch from the heavens. Job prayed that God would hide him in his grave "until Thy wrath be past", not hide him up in heaven by virtue of a "secret" rapture, secrecy is what Jesus warned us not to believe.

Except for the fact, literally all those mentioned here are enjoying a permanent incorruptible physical body now in Paradise. They have not been held in death by all you living historist throughout the last 400 years. Those same people freed from the papacy, forgot that fact. At the Second Coming Paul states those alive on the earth, need to be resurrected from the death of Adam's dead flesh, and will join those in Paradise. Not an escape. Just the future in that heavenly city not made by human hands, Paradise. This world is not our home. Not for another 1,000 years after the Second Coming.

 

[Timtofly]

To be honest, I've never heard of your position until now, so I took an objective look at it and discovered the context of "not be left one stone upon another" is to be understood by the words "that shall not be thrown down".

You may find stones lying one upon another, but you will not find any lying one upon another that have not been "thrown down" from their originally assigned construction location.

Therefore, contextually, the only thing that would frustrate the fulfillment of Jesus' words is that there be stones one atop the other which have not been thrown down. All I see are thrown down stones laying haphazardly among each other, some piled up, which is what Jesus and anyone else would expect, seeing that armies don't take the time to neatly tear down their enemy fortifications.

Sorry, but how does your understanding explain a fulfillment at any point in time? Do you think Jerusalem used to exist a couple of miles away from the location it is now? Jerusalem was rebuilt around 1500, when it comes to the stones used. No one, today, knows what was removed, moved, or constructed at any time in history, much less 70AD. That is guess work and imagination at play. It is scholars in the study of archeology who have all the degrees that the RCC church itself began as human education in many universities across the world, that the Protestants themselves started and continued in the same philosophy that declares your historicism to be valid or not. If you cannot trust the experts over the last 1900 years, you all seem to think, making stuff up will work even better. The point is, the Romans did not remove the whole structure that Jesus said would one day be removed. No one has. They just built over it and kept going. No one cleared out the whole city, and started from zero foundation. And certainly not the foundation that was there, when Jesus said: "verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

There are still stones in the same spot still on top of each other never moved to this day. Did the Romans leave Jerusalem desolate for hundreds of years? Yes they did. That is a fact.

Is that mentioned in the OD? In Luke it is mentioned. In Matthew, no. Does each Gospel contain every single word that Jesus gave at the temple and on the mount of Olives. No they only give bits and pieces of what Jesus said. Was some of that not written down in Scripture, fulfilled in 70AD? More than likely, but the Gospels left out much of that, because they were written and became canon way after 70AD. So most of the words recorded still have a future context, because the Second Coming, some of Daniel, the book of Revelation, and the end were still future.

And nothing during the Reformation changed those facts, no matter how much people posted their versions of theology, in many books of that period. They did not have the internet, and today is no different than the 1500s in human understanding. People still arguing over the same old wrong theology.

Jerusalem was rebuilt at the same time the Reformation was in full swing. Should they have gotten their stories straightened out then?

 

[Timtofly]

The GWT judgment takes place after the 1,000 years when the wicked resurrect. So, the GWT judgment has nothing to do with the wicked running to the rocks and mountains about to take their 1,000 year dirt nap "at the brightness of His coming" when they give up the ghost as do all sinners when they stand in the presence of holiness.

They'll gaze upon His approach until His ever increasing glory becomes too much to bear and leaves them dead in their tracks, as Jeremiah prophesied:

"And the slain of the Lord at that day shall be from one end of the Earth, even to the other end of the Earth. They shall not be lamented, nor gathered, not buried; they shall be dung on the ground" because nobody is going to be left here to bury them except Satan and his angels who could care less.​

Now we see the ugly interpretation of deception from the 16th century apostasy. This earth is not going to be left a trash heap for 1,000 years.

I did not say a single word about the judgment at the end of the 1,000 years.

I said spiritual blindness will be removed. The GWT has been physically on earth and in heaven since creation. David pointed out that earth is the footstool. Not a modern separate foot rest. No, the footstool is the base of the GWT. The GWT literally sits on the earth and always has.

At the Second Coming spiritual blindness will be removed and all will see the GWT. You are totally missing what Revelation 20 states. This is what Paul says in Titus 2:13

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;"

That does not mean God comes to earth. It means we finally see God in full glory sitting on the GWT. Then John points out in Revelation 6, that at the Second Coming all on earth see the face of God on the throne. Now look at Revelation 20:11

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them."

Heaven and earth fled away. The GWT was the only physical thing that remained. John was not seeing the throne for the first time. John was seeing heaven and earth for the last time. That is when current reality ceases. The dead stand before God outside of creation at the GWT that has always been for the whole 8,000 years of current reality. We just cannot see it.

Even though the sons of God have had council around it since the beginning of time. We cannot see them either. We were just told in the book of Job it happens. Until God removes spiritual blindness at the Second Coming, we cannot see the appearance of this GWT. We cannot even see ourselves as sons of God until the Second Coming.

Christ will completely devastate current Jerusalem with an earthquake at the Second Coming, the 6th Seal. Jesus will rebuild the temple, will build a throne, and rule on earth for 1,000 years. All the humans will recover hiding out in the mountains. They will go through the final harvest. Only when God says it is over, will the last of Adam's flesh be harvested. We are told the worse case scenario. We should be praying for the best case scenario.

Most here are planning for the worst case scenario, and even made up scenarios from private opinion of carnal imaginations.

BTW: Jeremiah never said it would last 1,000 years. John said and Paul said Jesus would reign for 1,000 years and on earth, because that is where Jesus is at the start of the Millennium. John gives us the 1,000 years. Paul states Jesus is on earth at the Second Coming. Not one word in Revelation 20 about the earth being empty and desolate. Jerusalem was desolate and a dung heap between 70AD and the 16th century. Now you are a futurist when it comes to the earth being left desolate? The final harvest will leave the world in a bad shape. Yet the first day of the Millennium will be a new heaven and earth per Isaiah 65:17.

 

[marks]

dispensationalism's rapture

LOL!

I've just finished reading a dozen posts or so . . . it always amazes me how much "loaded language" people use in these discussions. From one post to the next to the next . . . it's like, don't just give the info, put it in some derisive format.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Here's another one of those, "Are you honest enough to admit it?" questions.

Dispensation, used to translate oikonomia, "House rule", is "the dispensing" of the needs of the household. Oikonomia refered to household managment. We get the word economy from that word.

Dispensations, plural, refers to the various ways, God has dispensed His kindness and grace to man.

In the Covenant of Law, daily sacrifices were offered according to God's command. In the New Covenant, One sacrifice, Jesus, ended all other sacrifices for sin. This is a change of dispensation, a change in the oikonomia.

There was a certain dispensation at that time, and a different dispensation after the cross. This is the core of "dispensationalism".

Do you recognize this? Or no?

Much love!

 

[Timtofly]

No one who has ever lived is dead ,one must learn the importance between flesh and soul

Why change then if no one is dead?

All of Adam's flesh is dead flesh. It is corruptible. Jesus does not change all flesh, that is the false doctrine of universalism.

The only ones resurrected at the Second Coming are those alive on earth who profess to be in Christ, and then only God knows one's heart, better than they do. They are resurrected out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh into God's permanent incorruptible physical bodies. Paul calls that change and resurrection at the same time. Paul says the whole church will be changed by the time of the Second Coming. Paul is already changed enjoying Paradise.

The soul is who we are, the software in the hardware. The software can be more corrupt than the physical body. The body only does what the soul demands. The body does not drive the soul. The soul drives the body.

 

[Timtofly]

Here's another one of those, "Are you honest enough to admit it?" questions.

Dispensation, used to translate oikonomia, "House rule", is "the dispensing" of the needs of the household. Oikonomia refered to household managment. We get the word economy from that word.

Dispensations, plural, refers to the various ways, God has dispensed His kindness and grace to man.

In the Covenant of Law, daily sacrifices were offered according to God's command. In the New Covenant, One sacrifice, Jesus, ended all other sacrifices for sin. This is a change of dispensation, a change in the oikonomia.

There was a certain dispensation at that time, and a different dispensation after the cross. This is the core of "dispensationalism".

Do you recognize this? Or no?

Much love!

Paul even pointed out before Moses. Romans 5:12-14

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

The parenthesis does not end. Because death never changed.

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

This free gift has applied to all dispensations since Adam. That last verse comes after the parenthetical that describes different dispensations.

Yes, how God deals with sin changed.

No, the Atonement was always the cure.

Between Adam and Moses sin was not imputed.

"For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law"

From Moses until the Cross sin was imputed by the Law. Paul said the law was our teacher and master about sin.

Since the Cross, humans were given knowledge of the Atonement, because the Atonement physically happened. There is no more excuses, because the Gospel went to all on earth very quickly. Men rejecting that Gospel, put the whole world in darkness, not God, nor Satan. Yet the Gospel still goes out and is still rejected over and over again.

Now the fact of dispensation is just used as a false accusation by one's personal carnal theology. They basically have turned a biblical truth into their own personal lies of deception.

 

[covenantee]

LOL!

I've just finished reading a dozen posts or so . . . it always amazes me how much "loaded language" people use in these discussions. From one post to the next to the next . . . it's like, don't just give the info, put it in some derisive format.

Much love!

Doesn't dispensationalism espouse a rapture?

 

[marks]

Doesn't dispensationalism espouse a rapture?

Dispensationalism doesn't espouse anything. The Bible tells about the harpadzo. People espouse their points of view. Dispensationalism is a label applied to a number of differnent points of view, often pegorative, often deflecting, and often with ignorance.

If you understand that the sacrifices for sin in the first Law Covenant are no longer required because of Jesus offering of His body on the cross, then you - yes you - hold to a dispensational point of view.

Much love!

 

[covenantee]

Dispensationalism doesn't espouse anything. The Bible tells about the harpadzo. People espouse their points of view. Dispensationalism is a label applied to a number of differnent points of view, often pegorative, often deflecting, and often with ignorance.

If you understand that the sacrifices for sin in the first Law Covenant are no longer required because of Jesus offering of His body on the cross, then you - yes you - hold to a dispensational point of view.

Much love!

Did anyone before Morgan Edwards espouse a pretribulation harpadzo?

 

[marks]

The soul is who we are, the software in the hardware. The software can be more corrupt than the physical body. The body only does what the soul demands. The body does not drive the soul. The soul drives the body.

Consider the case of a person who has a brain injury, and it changes their personality. Or the person who suffers childhood abuse, and that truama changes their brain development, greatly impacting their personality and development.

Someone who is serotonin deficient may self-medicate in a drug addiction because corruption was introduced to their physical being. There are many ways this sort of things happens.

The body - the formation of the brain - also make their demands, and it is these we have to resist when they are ungodly. But it can be hardwired into the brain.

I can explain more on this if you like.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Did anyone before Morgan Edwards espouse a pretribulation harpadzo?

Who is Morgan Edwards? To be clear, I don't know Morgan Edwards, I've never read Darby, I don't use the Scofield Study Bible, let's see . . . Oh, yes, I've never read Ribera? Is that his name? The Jesuit that people point to?

I study the Bible.

Much love!

 

[covenantee]

Who is Morgan Edwards? To be clear, I don't know Morgan Edwards, I've never read Darby, I don't use the Scofield Study Bible, let's see . . . Oh, yes, I've never read Ribera? Is that his name? The Jesuit that people point to?

I study the Bible.

Much love!

Do you espouse a pretribulation harpadzo?

If so, then perhaps you could be the first, if you're not aware of anyone else who has.

 

[marks]

Do you espouse a pretribulation harpadzo?

If so, then perhaps you could be the first, if you're not aware of anyone else who has.

I've concluded that those in Christ will be caught up to Jesus at the beginning of the 70th week. However, I am aware of others who think the same way.

But it would be a mistake to think that I hold the view I do because someone else does. And you will find if you wish to explore my view that I don't think of this in all the same ways as others you may be used to.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Did anyone before Morgan Edwards espouse a pretribulation harpadzo?

And besides all that . . . yes, there was someone before Morgan Edwards. I say that without knowing who he is/was, only that his name sounds much more contemporary compared to Paulos. The Apostle Paul taught an harpadzo that does not fit anywhere else.

Much love