The Pre-Trib Rapture
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That's not true.
Doesn't sticking to the facts make for a better debate?
"2 parousias" is your mischaracterization of their view. It's completely inaccurate.
This is one of my chief complaints about having debates with people. It seems not too many are either willing or capable of fairly and acurately restating the views they argue against.
Misrepresentation, derision, I can only guess that these are presented because the speaker lacks proper arguments. Or maybe just doesn't understand the view against which they argue. Either way, not fun, not productive.
Parousia is like, advent, an arrival, your presence is now here. And the pre-trib rapture view does not present Jesus as becoming present on the earth.
There is something called "active listening", or "reflective listening". This is a technique by which you can make sure you understand what another person is attempting to communicate. It makes for better communications.
Much love!
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And where Paul describes the harpadzo, "then we who are alive and remain will be caught up in clouds to meet the Lord in the air", this may mean that we disappear into clouds, or that we will be clouds of Christians caught up into the sky.
I so look forward to this!
Much love!
Another one of those mischaracterizations, with a certain insulting and accusatory tone. Bravo!
What happens when we take these kinds of mindsets into Scripture, attempting to learn? Are we arrogant here, and then turn submitted when sitting before God?
Shouldn't we remember we are sitting before God even now? And even now, we are accountable be sharing His love?
Much love!
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@Paul Malcomson ,
Did you happen to read my OP? Did you have any comment?
~~~~~
When I consider the Rapture of the Church, and when it might occur, I find a couple of things seem to hold true.
One is that there is no place that just says, it happens then, you can only know through the process of elimination.
Another is, after you've ruled out everything it can't be, the only option left is Pre-Trib.
One more . . . the more likely someone is to call something "symbolic", for instance, the 144,000 sealed Jews, the more likely someone is to call these things symbolic, the less likely to hold to pre-trib timing. The more literally Scripture is taken, the more likely someone will be pre-trib. These seem to go hand in hand.
If Jesus comes and first gathers Israel, and then gathers the nations to be judged according as He said, the church has to already be gone from the earth when the great tribulation begins.
If the Revelation is prophetic narrative, and when it says this happens and then that happens, that's the way it is, the church must be gone before any of the trumpets and bowls.
So to continue the one example . . . "the servant of God were sealed", John heard the number, 144,000, all Jewish men. No gentiles there, no women, and only 144 thousand of them. No church present on the earth.
Much love!
Did you happen to read my OP? Did you have any comment?
~~~~~
When I consider the Rapture of the Church, and when it might occur, I find a couple of things seem to hold true.
One is that there is no place that just says, it happens then, you can only know through the process of elimination.
Another is, after you've ruled out everything it can't be, the only option left is Pre-Trib.
One more . . . the more likely someone is to call something "symbolic", for instance, the 144,000 sealed Jews, the more likely someone is to call these things symbolic, the less likely to hold to pre-trib timing. The more literally Scripture is taken, the more likely someone will be pre-trib. These seem to go hand in hand.
If Jesus comes and first gathers Israel, and then gathers the nations to be judged according as He said, the church has to already be gone from the earth when the great tribulation begins.
If the Revelation is prophetic narrative, and when it says this happens and then that happens, that's the way it is, the church must be gone before any of the trumpets and bowls.
So to continue the one example . . . "the servant of God were sealed", John heard the number, 144,000, all Jewish men. No gentiles there, no women, and only 144 thousand of them. No church present on the earth.
Much love!
I am fully aware what Pretrib believes. I used to hold to it.
The Greek word parousia appears 24 times in the New Testament. It is rendered “coming” in 22 passages and “presence” in 2. The word can be interpreted coming, arrival or presence and simply expresses in the Greek what it implies in the English. The word parousia is mostly applied in Scripture to the second coming of the Lord although it is not solely restricted to that Advent. In II Thessalonians 2:9 the word is applied to the arrival of antichrist. The word is also used in other passages to describe the coming or arrival of a person (1 Corinthians 16:17 and 2 Corinthians 7:6).
Notwithstanding, the first time we encounter the word parousia in relation to the coming of the Lord is in Matthew 24. The word is found in the disciples’ response to the Lord’s statement outside the temple – “verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down” (v2).
The disciples then question the Lord on the detail, meaning and timing of this solemn prophecy and of the end of the world by way of two questions in Matthew 24:3, asking,
(1) “Tell us, when shall these things be?” and
(2) “what shall be the sign of thy parousia (or), and of the end (or sunteleías, or completion, or consummation) of the world?”
In this passage, "the end of the world" is plainly identified with the coming of the Lord.
The Lord employs the word parousia in reply to the disciples second question in Matthew 24:23-28, when He says, “if any man shall say unto you (before the one final future second coming of the Lord), Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the parousia of the Son be. Wheresoever is the carcase, there will be gathered together the eagles.”
Christ continues in Matthew 24:29-31, speaking of this one final future coming, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and ‘they shall gather together’ [Gr. episunago] his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
Matthew 24:35-41 continues: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the parousia of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one ‘shall be taken’ [Gr. paralambano], and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one ‘shall be taken’ [Gr. paralambano], and the other left.”
After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away,” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approachingis coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”
Christ describes this day as an unanticipated day for many – one that will find many unprepared. For those who are playing at religion they will be caught on. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The wicked are an all-inclusive group; they include every Christ-rejecter – from the religious professors to the outright profane hypocrites. They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”
The Lord uses the word parousia again in v 37 to equate the days preceding His coming to the days preceding Noah’s entry into the ark, saying, “as the days of Noe were, so shall also the parousia of the Son of man be.” In His reply, Christ confirmed, what the disciples already seem to have rightly comprehended, in their questioning, that His next Coming is His last and only future coming and that it ushers in “the end of the world (or age)”
We note three particular characteristics of this day, which will be repeated at the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. (1) The wicked lived as if there was no judgement coming, verse 38 says, “they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage.” (2) The wicked were caught unexpected, verse 39 says, they “knew not until the flood came.” And finally, (3) the wicked were ALL destroyed, verse 39 says, “the flood came, and took them all away.”
Thus, the second coming of the Lord shall come in like manner, verse 39 confirms, “so shall also the parousia of the Son of man be.
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2 Peter 3:3-13: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his parousia? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
Look at this carefully. The solemn message embodied within this reading is speaking about the “scoffers” in “the last days” who foolishly question the possibility of the impending return of Christ. It is not in any way concentrated upon a supposed group of millennial scoffers 1,000 years later or a period following the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. If this is supposed to be a collection of millennial inhabitants 1,000 years after the second coming, why would they be mocking “Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation”? Such a notion is completely absurd because Christ’s coming (or parousia) would then be long past.
The last days are clearly now. When Peter states, “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness” (2 Peter 3:9) he was (1) speaking of His climactic coming and (2) referring to “the last days scoffers” mocking the promise of the Lord’s return (2 Peter 3:3-4). He then goes on to show how these foolish individuals will be finally and totally destroyed along with this current earth (and the element and the heavens) at Christ’s coming (2 Peter 3:7). After, outlining the awful end of the wicked, Peter then turns to the believer and presents the great hope of the righteous, saying, “Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:13). The coming of Christ therefore brings completely differing outcomes for these two diverse companies. Christ’s Advent in glory will witness the eternal banishment of all wickedness from off the face of the earth. A new earth – free of all sin, death, rebellion and the wicked – will then be gloriously ushered in.
We can therefore confidently assume that, like Noah’s day, the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ is a single event which involves the immediate and complete rescue of all His people coupled with the immediate and complete destruction of all the wicked. This Advent will effect the destruction of this current sin-cursed world.
The parousia is here also described as the day of God – the day which sees the end of the world. Therefore, we can safely assume, like Noah’s day, that the righteous shall be rescued first at the parousia of the Lord before the wicked are immediately and completely destroyed.
1 Corinthians 15:22-24 confirms the finality of that day and its clear relation to the end, saying, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his parousia. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”
This reading outlines in totally unambiguous language how the second coming of the Lord will be completely all-consummating in its nature. This final event expressly ushers in the end, and is the stage that Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and “shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.” It is the concluding end for all mankind on this scene of time, now eternity and the general judgement. Notwithstanding, we cannot fail to note the stark contrast between God’s dealing with the kingdom of God and that of the kingdom of darkness at the end. One is finally presented “up,” the other is finally put “down.” All this coincides with the one final future coming (or ‘parousia’) of the Lord.
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Simply stated, are you saying that Jesus comes, and following His coming, final judgment happens, and the "eternal state" begins?
Much love!
I don't understand this part here . . . who is presenting that view? I've never seen this passage applied to the end of the 1,000 years.
Much love!
Actually, and this is more towards the contrast between erchomai and parousia, Christ's parousia will continue. Jesus doesn't leave the earth, He rules it for 1,000 years. That IS His parousia. His advent. He's here now. He's come to be with us, and being with us is what He is doing.
Much love!
PS . . . just to say, lots of bold fonts and big colors don't work well with these eyes . . . underlining everything just makes it harder to read, and nothing stands out . . . again, just letting you know.
Because the Scriptures i presented show the end of the world occurs at the parousia of the Lord. This forbids Pretrib and Premil.
Yes. Christ appears with His holy angels (Matthew 13:41-43, 49 16:27 24:29-31 25:31-32, Mark 13:25-27, Luke 9:26, Revelation 14:14-20) and the New Jerusalem (John 14:1-3, Hebrews 11:8-10, 13-16, 13:14. Revelation 3:11-12, 21:1-4).
There is a general resurrection/judgment (singular) of all mankind at the coming of Christ (Matthew 10:15, 12:36, 16:27, 25:31-46, John 5:21-30, 6:39-44, 54, 10:42, 11:21-27, 12:48, 17:30-32, 24:15, Acts 10:42, 17:30-31, Romans 2:4-8, 14:10-12, 1 Corinthians 3:6-8, 11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:5, 2 Corinthians 5:10, 2 Timothy 4:1-8, 2 Thessalonians 1:5-8, 1 Timothy 5:24, Hebrews 9:27, 10:27, 2 Peter 2:9, 3:7, 1 Peter 4:1-5, 1 John 4:17, and Revelation 19:11, 20:11-15, 22:12).
Satan cast into the Lake of Fire (Isaiah 26:19, II Thessalonians 2:1-9 Revelation 20:10). This occurs before the heaven and earth pass away in Revelation 20.
There is a climactic conflagration (Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15).
Perfection arrives with the age to come (Luke 20:27-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55, 2 Peter 3:3-13 Philippians 3:20-21, 1 Peter 4:3-7, Hebrews 1:10-12 and Revelation 20:11-15, 21:1-5).
The age to come possesses no mortals. The wicked are destroyed at His appearing (2 Samuel 22:9, Job 41:20-21, Psalm 18:7-8, 37:9-11, 50:1-6, 68:1-3, 97:3-5, Isaiah 11:4-5, 13:9, 30:33, 66:15-17, Joel 2:1-3, 2:10-11, Nahum 1:1, 5-6, Malachi 4:1, Luke 17:26-30, 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 6:9, 13:8-13, 15:50-55, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3, II Thessalonians 1:4-10, Revelation 16:15-21, 19:11-18, Revelation 21-22).
1 Corinthians 13:12, Ephesians 4:13 and Revelation 10:5-7 show that the curtain coming down on the mystery of God, thus confirming we are at the end of time and entering into eternity when all will finally be revealed.
bbyrd009
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@Paul Malcomson
I read these things very differently from you. So when I read that there is a jugdment of nations when Jesus returns, and the judgment of the dead after the 1000 years, that the judgment of the nations happens at a location on earth, and the judgment of the dead happens when the earth has fled, nowhere found, I understand these exactly as stated, leading me to conclude 2 different event.
To me, it seems I'd have to ignore a number of distinctives of each in order to view them the same. Many are comfortable in coming to interpretation where the dead include the living, or that 1,000 years isn't 1,000 years, but I am not. And I find a cohesive picture emerges when I hold fast to the specific sayings of the prophecies and other Scriptures.
None of these things exist in a vacuum. Eschatology, soteriology, ecclesiology, Israelology, are all bound up together. If you hold an erroneous view of one, it's going to create problems with the others.
And again, it seems, here is another person who interprets less literally, and who does not hold to pre-trib, so my observation plays out again.
Much love!
I read these things very differently from you. So when I read that there is a jugdment of nations when Jesus returns, and the judgment of the dead after the 1000 years, that the judgment of the nations happens at a location on earth, and the judgment of the dead happens when the earth has fled, nowhere found, I understand these exactly as stated, leading me to conclude 2 different event.
To me, it seems I'd have to ignore a number of distinctives of each in order to view them the same. Many are comfortable in coming to interpretation where the dead include the living, or that 1,000 years isn't 1,000 years, but I am not. And I find a cohesive picture emerges when I hold fast to the specific sayings of the prophecies and other Scriptures.
None of these things exist in a vacuum. Eschatology, soteriology, ecclesiology, Israelology, are all bound up together. If you hold an erroneous view of one, it's going to create problems with the others.
And again, it seems, here is another person who interprets less literally, and who does not hold to pre-trib, so my observation plays out again.
Much love!
I agree with some of what you say and disagree with other things you say. Sadly, Pretribbers are not the literalists. They explain a lot of climactic Scripture away. They have to for their theology to fit.
For example, 2 Timothy 4:1-8 informs us when this glorious (all-inclusive) number will actually stand to account before the throne of God, saying, “I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom … there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.”
Adam’s race – in total – are therefore judged “at his (Christ’s) ‘epifaneian’ (or) appearing and his kingdom.” This is an all-inclusive general judgment. The subjects involved and the occasion referred to could not be clearer.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
If it is unanticipated that rules out Revelation 20:7-11. It also rules out Revelation 19. Neither are those times and events the parousia Jesus was talking about. It is Amil that re-write Scripture to fit their theology. It would also make 2 more parousia for Amil. They would be hypocritics to deny that. They also need to add human opinion that combines two different events and call them parallel, which is forcing a drastic change to both text, when they both are very much expected events, and also separate events.
One event has Satan being loosed after 1,000 years. The other event has Satan in total control of the earth for 42 months, and about to be bound in a pit. Both involving a specific time reference, and an expected conclusion of an expected event. And only one involves Jesus coming from heaven to earth. Revelation 19 is an expected coming. The Second Coming per the OD is unexpected and not involving Satan either.
Notice two terms given which are not equivalent. The question becomes whether kai in this case is copulative or explicative. Something like, "His appearing, even His presence", these can be explicative as they are the same sorts of things. Where I am, and what I have or do are not the same sorts of things. So for myself, I read, "his appearing and his kingdom" as the copulative use of kai. Two terms that are not equivalent.
Much love!
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