Is our personal relationship with Jesus Christ like that of an Elvis fan?
Should our personal relationship with Jesus be more like a son, or friend, or even a bride?
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Is our personal relationship with Jesus Christ like that of an Elvis fan?
Should our personal relationship with Jesus be more like a son, or friend, or even a bride?
Concerning John the Baptist a comparison was made to a best man of a man about to get married, but also a comparison to a reed blowing in the wind!!
One day John was telling people that Jesus was the One he told them about. Someone who he was not even worthy to tie his shoes. Yet when things got tough he sent his disciple to find out if Jesus was the One they were waiting for!! And since Jesus also said John was the greatest born of woman, how does that compare with not thinking a believer with a love relationship with Christ would never consider abandoning Jesus?
Carl Emerson
Well-Known Member
Jeremiah prophesied that the New Covenant to come would include the permanent indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.
This included the Spirit of the fear of the Lord. (Jer 32:40) This was sent to seal believers to righteousness for their own good.
Also I don't see any evidence of JB forsaking the calling he had been given.
A reed in the wind of the Holy Spirit should be normative for believers who are in humble relationship with Him.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
The KOG is within you, Jesus Said.
"within you".
So, you dont know anything about this at all, and thats not a joke, Ferris Bueller.
Thats a FACT.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Christ rejecting unbelievers with the kingdom of God in them by the Holy Spirit. That's a pathetic joke. You're misleading people into thinking they are saved when they aren't at all. Unbelievers do not inherit the kingdom of God. Won't ever happen.
"Christ rejecting unbelievers" were never born again.
See, once you are born again, you are a confirmed Son of God.
If you have a mental collapse, or if you have a faith crisis, 20 yrs later.....you are still born again, still going to heaven.
You can never stop being born again.
Dropship
Well-Known Member
If Demas later repented and became a Christian good for him, but if he was a Jesus-rejecter when he died no way would he be allowed into that great gated community in the sky or it'd be a case of "oops there goes the neighbourhood"..:)
A "permanent"??? In Jeremiah???
I ran "permanent" through a Bible search tool and it didn't have "permanent" in Jeremiah!!
Yet there is something in Isaiah about the Holy Spirit and "freedom"!!
Is 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me,
Because the LORD has anointed me
To bring good news to the afflicted;
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to captives
And freedom to prisoners;
So even if a person receives the indwelling of the Holy Spirit there is still the freedom to not have the Holy Spirit at a later point!!
Therefore "permanent" cannot be applied - as if a person cannot then later change their mind!!
What gets me though, is the people how present themselves as knowing the Lord and yet they fail to understand about basic things like, the freedom the Lord wants and does give to us. If a person really does talk to Him, how can they not understand that He is all about giving us a choice!!
Have you not even read that as Jesus sees the Father do, so He does also.
Is 7:16 “For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken.
What Jesus Christ, as the Teacher, is trying to teach us is to 'know enough to refuse evil and choose good. It is explained that God put before us both good and evil, so we need to choose good, but that is obviously not a one time choice but a day to day and even a moment to moment choice!! Of have we not read that we battle with the dark forces of this world?
If I am trying lean on my own understanding of religion (our understanding of God), I have chosen evil, because of us Jesus said, "If you being evil..." So it is that choosing good means not leaning on your own understanding or the understanding of men, but rather it means that you seek the voice of the Lord! And it is written:
Heb 3:7,8 Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME,
AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,
So you have a choice to make everyday call "Today" to either listen to the Lord or not!!
And God is omni-present!! So He is always with you to hear from. It is just a question of whether you are going to let Him into your life "Today"?
Rev 3:20 ‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.
Some people seem to think that is a one time thing - that we should at some point hear His voice and recieve Him and we are save so we don't need to hear from Him anymore. Yet they then deny the writings in Hebrews, which was clearly written after the cross, pointing out the obvious problem of not listening "Today" and instead hardening our hearts!!
So how do they miss that, and who would it be that misses that? It's not the person who does hear from Him everyday called "Today"!! That person understands the choice and keeps turning back to hear from their Lord everyday called "Today"! The choice to keep hearing the voice of the Lord which comes through the Holy Spirit is clearly understood to be a choice!! And is not some permanent thing which is no longer a choice to be made!!
We can still harden our hearts!! We can still reject Him, Today!! The problem really comes down to; that once you know you can hear from the Wonderful Counselor, God Almighty, Everlasting Father, who is the Prince of Peace, then how long are you going to keep yourself from again opening up to Him and let Him inside so you two can again eat together?
The reality is that I hear from Him. And so I find that He is incredible, but He doesn't think like I do. As silly as the sound, that difference between His thinking and my thinking sometime leads me to get upset with Him. Of course He is always right, but sometimes, as a regular person, I don't like what He wants me to do. And it can be a simple as asking me to stop while driving and go over and see if I can pray for a person in a wheel chair going across the parking lot. Yeah, that would probably we a good thing to do. But it also might make me feel uncomfortable, it might take my time, it would just feel weird, even though it might result in that person getting healed. So the response that comes to my mind when I heard that from Him was, "No, I am not going over there to do that". So you reject Him. You even get mad at Him for suggesting such a thing. You even get upset with yourself, but all that causes you to get hard hearted and not listen to Him. You might stay that way, and you certainly have the freedom to stay that way, but there is still that knock on the door. He comes back to you when you are not willing to come to Him. He knocks, and knocks, and knocks, until you get over that silliness and more humble than before, having learned a lesson, you turn back to Him again.
Still, you don't have to! It has to be that you want Him in your life, and that can change!! It is not a "permanent", one time you receive Him thing!! You still have a choice, and the person who didn't choose Him is the one leaning on their own understanding!! They are white washed tombs - saying that they are saved but not showing real signs that they truly know Him.
It is a relationship that we have with Him. And just like a wife can leave a husband, even a husband trying to cling to her, we can leave Him. The problems is not that we can't leave!! The problem is that He is so wonderful and loving, how long can you leave Him? He is just too awesome and loving to stay away too long. And anyone who truly knows Him would understand that!
Demas....was in Paul's ministry. Born again.
He was , perhaps.... not a person, at that time, who could deal with the danger, or deal with the call. And he was a carnal believer who wanted to go and have fun.
He left, not the Faith, but Paul's ministry, of his own accord, according to Paul.
Mark on the other hand was exited by Paul, and the reason is not given.
These were very difficult times to be a Believer, as you could expect to be killed.
You could expect this.....and not everyone can face this, especially a new believer, or a weak one.
Demas, Mark, Paul, they are all in Heaven, not because they are good, but because Jesus's sacrifice was accepted by God, on their behalf.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
And yet you have them entering the kingdom of God at the end of the age. So you're going to have to make up your mind: Are believers who go back to unbelief born again or not? As it is right now, you have the born again person who goes back to unbelief remaining born again.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
We dont know whether or not he returned .
But if he truly did leave , then john would have said , HE was never truly of us .
What JOHN would not say is , OH HE IS STILL saved . No . If one comes out from amongst us , THEN they never truly were of us .
If one started out the gate strong , had much joy , received the word with joy , but along comes the pleasures of life ,
and out they come . WERE THEY EVER TRULY OF US . According to the parables , I SAY NO .
The dire and grave danger of teaching if one returns back to unbelief they are still saved . IS deadly to teach .
Instead its , THEY were never truly of us .
What you said, is just your fantasy and backwards invention.
I never talk about "the end of the age", as im a disciple of Christ's in the "time of the Gentiles".
I don't know exactly the total culmination that is your hybrid, legalistic, self invented, theology, but, .... as for me, im just "Pauline Theology". @100%
And the KOG is to be..... > "translated from Darkness, ... to Light".
Its to exist as "ONE with God", "In Christ", who is in all the born again.
This is why He told us that "the Kingdom of God is within you"., and it is, once you are born again.
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If He returned to Paul's ministry, or never.
If he started His own, or didnt.
That is WORKS..........and is not related to being "Born again".
Demas, just like Mark, just Like Paul, was born again.
Paul never said that Demas was "NOT OF US"....which he does say at times to define the UNBELIEVERS, who are FAKE CHRISTIANS.
He didnt say this about Demas.....and Paul's tone when talking about him, isn't the tone of judgement, but rather of compassion and pity, and regret.
Paul loved his small group of men that he groomed to be in the ministry, including Titus, and Timothy, and Demas.
Carl Emerson
Well-Known Member
Fundamental to being born again is to surrender ones will to Him.
" it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure."
Those truely born again relinquish the right to reject Him later - it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
The Holy Spirit came upon and remained upon Jesus. All other old covenant followers had no permanent anointing. This is how JB was told to recognise Messiah. He was the first born of many brethren with the Spirits permanent anointing.
The Holy Spirit expresses in seven ways according to Isaiah 11. One of the seven is the Spirit of the fear of the Lord which seals salvation.
I note you judge me as unsaved...
Jesus said judge not.
Jeremiah said "I will put the fear of Me in their hearts, so that they will not turn away from Me..."
That is clearly permanent.
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Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
You say once you are born again you are always born again even if you fall away into unbelief. That means you say there are unbelievers in the kingdom of God. That's so ridiculous that I can't believe that ridiculous doctrine ever got any traction in the church. But it has, and it's deceived many people into thinking they are saved/born again and ready to meet Jesus when he returns despite the fact that they are separated from him and the Father in Christ-rejecting unbelief.
Yes.
As you can fall away from faith, which is a thinking issue, or a faith crisis.
But you can't "fall away" from a BIRTH.
You can't fall away from being born again.
You can never stop being a Son of God, based on your behavior, as your behavior does not cause you to become a Son of God.
its Jesus's Behavior, that is the righteousness that God gives to the born again, as "the gift of Righteousness".
THERE is your SALVATION FOUND AND MAINTAINED.
= "IN CHRIST".
This is ETERNAL LIFE, and this never ends with regards to the Born again.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Seriously, unbelievers are not born again. There will be no unbelievers in the kingdom of God when Jesus returns.
Your BELIEVING does. Your BELIEVING causes you to become a son of God. The person who is not holding onto the word in believing is not born again:
"6But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are His house, if we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope of which we boast." Hebrews 3:6
"14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly to the end the assurance we had at first. " Hebrews 3:14
"14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly to the end the assurance we had at first. " Hebrews 3:14
The fallen away person is not saved. They do not belong to the house of God. Whether or not the unbelieving person was ever born again or not is a moot point since they are going to the lake of fire either way. You give false hope to unbelievers that they are saved when they are in fact not saved. They do not belong to the house of God. Only people who hold firmly to the gospel in believing belong to the house of God. That is what the verses I posted above say.
You can't "fall away" from real Faith, unless you were born again first.
So, you need to think, just a little, vs, posting like a robot, the same circular thoughts.
Now, there is an apostasy, that is not the same as a faith crisis in a born again person.
The church is in one right now.
Its the end times apostasy from the Grace of God, into Legalism.
You are a prime example.
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