Imagine a World with no Christians!

[James Macbeth]

That's correct. The rapture doctrine hinges more so on 1 Thessalonians 4. Jerome has it as follows in the Vulgate:

13 And we will not have you ignorant brethren, concerning them that are asleep, that you be not sorrowful, even as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again: even so them who have slept through Jesus, will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you in the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them who have slept. 16 For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment and with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who are in Christ shall rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air: and so shall we be always with the Lord. 18 Wherefore, comfort ye one another with these words.

Who are left, meaning many were taken.
Also, where can we find in the Scriptures, that all will be changed?
Or does it mean all who are left only will be changed?

 

[James Macbeth]

There is no proof they were in Latin and not Greek. Why was Jerome working on a Latin translation if there were already 30,000 Latin translations in circulation?

That library had copies in Aramaic, Greek, Latin, Hebrew. Both Old and New Testaments. Letters, sermons other books, Etc.

Let's not forget the Libraries at Alexandria.

He wanted to make a Master Latin Edition that had no errors or variants in it.

I'm not saying the Greek variant is evil or indefensible, I'm saying it's a variant.

 

[Timtofly]

That library had copies in Aramaic, Greek, Latin, Hebrew. Both Old and New Testaments. Letters, sermons other books, Etc.

Let's not forget the Libraries at Alexandria.

He wanted to make a Master Latin Edition that had no errors or variants in it.

I'm not saying the Greek variant is evil or indefensible, I'm saying it's a variant.

No, it seems you are denying the originals were in Greek or Aramaic, but had to be in Latin.

Then you jump to the conclusion Jerome was "correcting" the Greek itself.

Do you have a quote from Jerome calling for a Master Latin Edition? Why not just his translation of a complete text? Obviously it would not be difficult if most letters of Paul were written in Latin already?

Then you just have Jerome's opinion on a translation. Surely you don't think God inspired Jerome to "correct the originals". Of which there were tens of thousands of copies all over the empire. Why is Jerome's translation then still in the minority of text? Obviously there was still a majority of text that held to a certain reading.

Does Jerome or even you have some commentary in regards to how you see this should read? So far you have only shown a difference of text, not a reasonable explanation for that difference.

 

[James Macbeth]

No, it seems you are denying the originals were in Greek or Aramaic, but had to be in Latin.

Then you jump to the conclusion Jerome was "correcting" the Greek itself.

Do you have a quote from Jerome calling for a Master Latin Edition? Why not just his translation of a complete text? Obviously it would not be difficult if most letters of Paul were written in Latin already?

Then you just have Jerome's opinion on a translation. Surely you don't think God inspired Jerome to "correct the originals". Of which there were tens of thousands of copies all over the empire. Why is Jerome's translation then still in the minority of text? Obviously there was still a majority of text that held to a certain reading.

Does Jerome or even you have some commentary in regards to how you see this should read? So far you have only shown a difference of text, not a reasonable explanation for that difference.

I was only commenting on the 1st Epistle to the Corinthians.

Saint Jerome saw many variants in the Latin Bibles. So he went to the Library of Caesarea, as well as other places close to the holy Land. He took his most trusted Latin Bible(maybe a few) from Rome and compared them to the vast majority of Texts, and went with the oldest manuscripts for each book. He had lots of help from the Librarians, and local Churches around the holy Land. This is why his version is the best, because he had access to the best. Look it up, the Muslims burnt manuscripts and whole Libraries, even Churches. You can't find that stuff today.

Corinth was a Roman town. We have existing 10,000 Latin manuscripts. The ones containing 1 Cor, read all the same. Thus highly likely the original was in Latin. I'm just taking about 1 Cor, nothing else.

And where in the Bible does it say Greek only? Sounds like a manmade doctrine.

Each book has its own story.

And there are many Greek variants for 1 Cor. Go to the NET Bible website, you can see them all there.

 

[Timtofly]

I was only commenting on the 1st Epistle to the Corinthians.

Saint Jerome saw many variants in the Latin Bibles. So he went to the Library of Caesarea, as well as other places close to the holy Land. He took his most trusted Latin Bible(maybe a few) from Rome and compared them to the vast majority of Texts, and went with the oldest manuscripts for each book. He had lots of help from the Librarians, and local Churches around the holy Land. This is why his version is the best, because he had access to the best. Look it up, the Muslims burnt manuscripts and whole Libraries, even Churches. You can't find that stuff today.

Corinth was a Roman town. We have existing 10,000 Latin manuscripts. The ones containing 1 Cor, read all the same. Thus highly likely the original was in Latin. I'm just taking about 1 Cor, nothing else.

And where in the Bible does it say Greek only? Sounds like a manmade doctrine.

Each book has its own story.

And there are many Greek variants for 1 Cor. Go to the NET Bible website, you can see them all there.

Do you have the ability to quote Jerome in these facts? If not then it is your word against the facts. Still don't see a point to your argument though.

The only way to leave Adam's flesh and blood is to physically die. If death is instant how does this negate being changed? Only those who physically die, can be changed.

Of course those on earth still alive are not raptured, not physically killed, nor changed.

Why would some sinners be allowed in Paradise who were never changed, but still in Adam's dead corruptible flesh and blood?

 

[James Macbeth]

Do you have the ability to quote Jerome in these facts? If not then it is your word against the facts. Still don't see a point to your argument though.

The only way to leave Adam's flesh and blood is to physically die. If death is instant how does this negate being changed? Only those who physically die, can be changed.

Of course those on earth still alive are not raptured, not physically killed, nor changed.

Why would some sinners be allowed in Paradise who were never changed, but still in Adam's dead corruptible flesh and blood?

1 Corinthians, 15:51
Behold I tell you a mystery: We shall all indeed rise again, but we shall not all be changed.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-10
This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God...when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty Angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

Matthew 24:31-46
When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the Angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious Throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left... ...Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil & his Angels.... ...And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

1 Corinthians, 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall rise again incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Who is the Trumpet for?

Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his Angels with a trumpet, and a great voice; and they shall gather together his elect, from the four winds, from the farthest parts of the heavens to the utmost bounds of them.

Only Christians (that remain) who are chosen by Jesus himself will have a new body(transformed). But on that day many will protest and say Lord! Lord! (not all will be changed)

*Everything I said about Saint Jerome can be easily found. As also the Greek variants for 1 Cor 15:51, can be found.

 

[Enoch111]

Then you jump to the conclusion Jerome was "correcting" the Greek itself.

All the corrupters of the Bible, including Origen, Eusebius, Pamphilius, Jerome (and all modern bible version translators) have been corrupting the Bible while claiming that they were "correcting" it. So Jerome's Latin Vulgate is an ancestor to corrupt modern bible versions, and should be ignored. Paul said that "We are not as many which corrupt the Word of God" and the Gnostics of his time were doing exactly that. The corrupted Greek manuscripts used for modern versions are primarily Gnostic inventions.

 

[Timtofly]

1 Corinthians, 15:51
Behold I tell you a mystery: We shall all indeed rise again, but we shall not all be changed.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-10
This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God...when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty Angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

Matthew 24:31-46
When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the Angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious Throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left... ...Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil & his Angels.... ...And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

1 Corinthians, 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall rise again incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Who is the Trumpet for?

Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his Angels with a trumpet, and a great voice; and they shall gather together his elect, from the four winds, from the farthest parts of the heavens to the utmost bounds of them.

Only Christians (that remain) who are chosen by Jesus himself will have a new body(transformed). But on that day many will protest and say Lord! Lord! (not all will be changed)

*Everything I said about Saint Jerome can be easily found. As also the Greek variants for 1 Cor 15:51, can be found.

It is a heretical view, thus not accepted by the majority view. You cannot split the church between totally redeemed and partially redeemed residing in Paradise. Revelation 20 clearly states a separation between those resurrected to live on earth and those who appear at the GWT. This indicates 3 different types of people. The church is in Paradise, and all are completely changed. Some live on earth not fully changed. Others remain in sheol not even resurrected.

If that was Jerome's intent, changing what Paul said cannot work. At the Second Coming all those raptured are all changed. That is the point of the Second Coming. There is not a single general resurrection. Jerome is wrong in trying to make this verse imply that.

Jesus is on earth during the Trumpets and Thunders. This is the final harvest.

I don't have time to look up heretical views. Those who make assertions need to provide their own heretical proofs to back up such assertions.

 

[James Macbeth]

All the corrupters of the Bible, including Origen, Eusebius, Pamphilius, Jerome (and all modern bible version translators) have been corrupting the Bible while claiming that they were "correcting" it. So Jerome's Latin Vulgate is an ancestor to corrupt modern bible versions, and should be ignored. Paul said that "We are not as many which corrupt the Word of God" and the Gnostics of his time were doing exactly that. The corrupted Greek manuscripts used for modern versions are primarily Gnostic inventions.

Then explain the many Greek variants in 1Cor. 15:51.
What does: 'but we shall all be changed', mean?

 

[James Macbeth]

It is a heretical view, thus not accepted by the majority view. You cannot split the church between totally redeemed and partially redeemed residing in Paradise. Revelation 20 clearly states a separation between those resurrected to live on earth and those who appear at the GWT. This indicates 3 different types of people. The church is in Paradise, and all are completely changed. Some live on earth not fully changed. Others remain in sheol not even resurrected.

If that was Jerome's intent, changing what Paul said cannot work. At the Second Coming all those raptured are all changed. That is the point of the Second Coming. There is not a single general resurrection. Jerome is wrong in trying to make this verse imply that.

Jesus is on earth during the Trumpets and Thunders. This is the final harvest.

I don't have time to look up heretical views. Those who make assertions need to provide their own heretical proofs to back up such assertions.

Our Lord Jesus says otherwise:
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ (Matthew 7:21-23)

Thus Saint Jerome is right in translating: not all shall be changed. 1 Cor 15:51

 

[amigo de christo]

Who are left, meaning many were taken.
Also, where can we find in the Scriptures, that all will be changed?
Or does it mean all who are left only will be changed?

If we read it , it sounds like the ones taken are the ones removed from the kingdom itself .
Where the body is their will the eagles be gathered . Christ will remove from the KINDGOM all that does offend .
Only the meek in Christ shall inherit the earth . And as for all will be changed . The dead in Christ , those who sleep in HIM
are already changed . IT just means all of the lambs that are still alive at HIS coming . Those will be changed and caught up
with Him .

 

[amigo de christo]

Our Lord Jesus says otherwise:
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ (Matthew 7:21-23)

Thus Saint Jerome is right in translating: not all shall be changed. 1 Cor 15:51

Only the lambs will be changed .
But since you brought up this LORD LORD . Let me remind us all of something .
POPE francis as well as most all of the protestant realm are now teaching a false dead end gospel .
ONE which says , NO NEED TO HAVE TO CONFESS JESUS . Muslims are fine as long as they have love
buddists too and many others , so long as they do good works . RATHER ODD that JESUS HIMSELF
rebukes those who said BUT DIDNT WE DO MANY GOOD WORKS in your name . YET STILL WORKED INQUITY .
Ever wonder why i wont step one foot into the CC , nor into most sold out protestant churches .
THEY TOO BUSY pointing to another jesus that cannot save , a love that denies the LOVE OF GOD
and a gosple that cannot save any . My advice is , COME YE OUT from amongst them and learn that bible well .
Learn THAT JESUS . LEARN the doctrine of the true apostels in the bible . THEN TEST ALL THINGS that anyone teaches
AGAINST THAT DOCTRINE . HURRY , cause TIMES RUNNING OUT .

 

[amigo de christo]

All the corrupters of the Bible, including Origen, Eusebius, Pamphilius, Jerome (and all modern bible version translators) have been corrupting the Bible while claiming that they were "correcting" it. So Jerome's Latin Vulgate is an ancestor to corrupt modern bible versions, and should be ignored. Paul said that "We are not as many which corrupt the Word of God" and the Gnostics of his time were doing exactly that. The corrupted Greek manuscripts used for modern versions are primarily Gnostic inventions.

And dont believe a word those people say . STAY GLUED IN OUR BIBLE MY FRIEND .

 

[amigo de christo]

Then explain the many Greek variants in 1Cor. 15:51.
What does: 'but we shall all be changed', mean?

All who believed IN CHRIST . paul was speaking to BELIEVERS . Those who would be still here AT HIS COMING WILL BE CHANGED .
As for the world , Yeah NO . THEY AINT GONNA MAKE IT . They will be destroyed under the wrath of GOD .

 

[James Macbeth]

Only the lambs will be changed .
But since you brought up this LORD LORD . Let me remind us all of something .
POPE francis as well as most all of the protestant realm are now teaching a false dead end gospel .
ONE which says , NO NEED TO HAVE TO CONFESS JESUS . Muslims are fine as long as they have love
buddists too and many others , so long as they do good works . RATHER ODD that JESUS HIMSELF
rebukes those who said BUT DIDNT WE DO MANY GOOD WORKS in your name . YET STILL WORKED INQUITY .
Ever wonder why i wont step one foot into the CC , nor into most sold out protestant churches .
THEY TOO BUSY pointing to another jesus that cannot save , a love that denies the LOVE OF GOD
and a gosple that cannot save any . My advice is , COME YE OUT from amongst them and learn that bible well .
Learn THAT JESUS . LEARN the doctrine of the true apostels in the bible . THEN TEST ALL THINGS that anyone teaches
AGAINST THAT DOCTRINE . HURRY , cause TIMES RUNNING OUT .

You mean the holy Roman Catholic Church?
That is one of the original Churches.
What do you mean?

 

[amigo de christo]

You mean the holy Roman Catholic Church?
That is one of the original Churches.
What do you mean?

Folks act like churches cannot fall away . YET MANY HAVE DONE just that .
The original CHURCH was CHRIST and the apostels .
YET I DONT SEE hardly any churches following that pattern any more . Truth is
i see many churches that have left off teaching ALL those teachings and what they do teach
often contradicts what THEY , THE ORINGINAL CHURCH ITSELF taught . THE CC is dangerous
and i wont just say the CC , The protestant realm is in dire and grave danger itself .

 

[James Macbeth]

Folks act like churches cannot fall away . YET MANY HAVE DONE just that .
The original CHURCH was CHRIST and the apostels .
YET I DONT SEE hardly any churches following that pattern any more . Truth is
i see many churches that have left off teaching ALL those teachings and what they do teach
often contradicts what THEY , THE ORINGINAL CHURCH ITSELF taught . THE CC is dangerous
and i wont just say the CC , The protestant realm is in dire and grave danger itself .

Matthew 16:18
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.

People fall away, or go astray, but the Church still stands.

 

[amigo de christo]

Matthew 16:18
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.

People fall away, or go astray, but the Church still stands.

The CHURCH DOES . But the roman catholic church AINT the CHURCH .
The church are those in CHRIST and those follow HIM .

 

[amigo de christo]

You are claiming that one verse quoted by Jerome carries more weight than all known extant Greek NT texts? By that assumption, the entire NT could be scrapped for lacking authority.

The news missed something my friend .
SOMEONE on that TRAIN KNEW EXACTLY WHO TO TURN TOO . WHO TO CALL UPON .
I SEEM TO NOTICE that the dark spirit in that man , COULD NOT RESIST the power of that name
and had to quickly get up and LET HER GO .
WE WITNESSED THE POWER OF THE GLORIOUS NAME ABOVE ALL NAMES .
And folks believe in cessationism . NO SIR and NO MAMS . JESUS IS THE SAME YESTERDAY TODAY AND FOREVER .
JUST LISTEN real closely . YOU GONNA HEAR SOMETHING . SOMETHING THE NEWS MISSED . BUT YOU CAN HEAR IT .

 

[Hidden In Him]

The news missed something my friend .
SOMEONE on that TRAIN KNEW EXACTLY WHO TO TURN TOO . WHO TO CALL UPON .
I SEEM TO NOTICE that the dark spirit in that man , COULD NOT RESIST the power of that name
and had to quickly get up and LET HER GO .
WE WITNESSED THE POWER OF THE GLORIOUS NAME ABOVE ALL NAMES .
And folks believe in cessationism . NO SIR and NO MAMS . JESUS IS THE SAME YESTERDAY TODAY AND FOREVER .
JUST LISTEN real closely . YOU GONNA HEAR SOMETHING . SOMETHING THE NEWS MISSED . BUT YOU CAN HEAR IT .

Yeah, that's the guy filming it. Good for him.