A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Kermos]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr @Rich R @Pierac @DavidB @MatthewG @tigger 2 @jaybird @NayborBear

Here is Apostolic testimony that Jesus is the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

The Apostle Paul calls Jesus "the great God" (τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ) with "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus" (Titus 2:13).

The Apostle Peter calls Jesus "our God" truly "the God" (τοῦ Θεοῦ) with "Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1).

The Apostle Thomas calls Jesus "my God" wirh "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).

The Apostle Matthew attests that Jesus is "God with us" Immanuel (Matthew 1:23) thus Jesus is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us the children of God (Revelation 1:8).

The Apostle John calls Jesus "the Word" and "God" with "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1).

 

[Kermos]

1 Cor 2:14,

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Where does it say the scriptures don't make sense? It certainly doesn't say that once born again, a person suddenly acquires the ability to make sense out of nonsense. Natural man does not make sense, but the scriptures are the epitome of sensibility. The problem begins once mysticism is read into them. I'm sorry, but 3 people with one essence (or whatever) does not accord with reality, thereby making it mysticism. The scriptures are reality as God defines it. Man's ideas are not.

"Gnosticism was a second-century religious movement claiming that salvation could be gained through a special form of secret knowledge." learnreligions.com/what-is-gnosticism-700683

Exactly what you and many other Trinitarians aver!

Gnosticism Definition:

The term Gnosticism is derived from the Greek word gnosis, meaning "to know" or "knowledge." This knowledge is not intellectual but mythical and comes through a special revelation by Jesus Christ, the Redeemer, or through his apostles. The secret knowledge reveals the key to salvation.

Exactly what you and many other Trinitarians aver!

Prov 8:8-9,

8 All the words of my mouth [are] in righteousness; [there is] nothing froward or perverse in them.

9 They [are] all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

Plain: H5228 נָכֹחַ nakoach (naw-ko'-ach) adj.
1. straightforward.
2. (figuratively) equitable, correct.
3. (abstractly) integrity

In contrast to the "secret" teachings of Gnosticism, the scriptures say what they mean and mean what they say. When they say Jesus is the Son of God, they mean he is God's son and hence not God Himself. Why is that so hard comprehend?

John 17:3,

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Jesus called his Father the ONLY true God! Jesus claimed, not that he was God, but that he was sent by God. I don't have to twist any words to see the clear deceleration of John. On the other hand, it takes mega-twisting to make this verse say Jesus is God.

1 Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

Paul said exactly what Jesus said, i.e. that his Father is the only true God. Why do you fight both Jesus and Paul in these simple 6th grade reading level statements?

You have a severe linguistic handicap, and/or you are just flat out a deceiver.

I clearly wrote to you "I convey that you, in your current state, do not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to you, and you cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised (1 Corinthians 2:14)"; on the other hand, you wrote "Where does it say the scriptures don't make sense? It certainly doesn't say that once born again, a person suddenly acquires the ability to make sense out of nonsense. Natural man does not make sense".

You wrongly frame the point, and this segues to the fact that you demonstrated a staggering level of linguistic errors, omissions, and/or misrepresentations as shown in the following links

You wickedly promote mere humans to being God while you evilly demote Jesus from being God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #848 in this thread), and you deceptively try to confuse Jesus' special place as Immanuel, God with us (Matthew 1:23, Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6).

moreover

In your heart, you subtract the Apostle Thomas saying "my God" to Lord Jesus (John 20:28) in the context of Thomas' usage (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #870 in this thread), so you deny Apostolic testimony.

moreover

You desperately try to change the Word of God into "that they also may be one with us" in John 17:21-22, so you are making yourself out to be greater than the Word of God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1003 in this thread), so you nullify the Word of God, Jesus (John 1:1, John 1:14) in your heart by exalting your thoughts above God's thoughts (Isaiah 55:8-9).

moreover

You foolishly claim the Greek "en" can mean "with", yet "en" truly means "in", and your foolishness targets your thoughts that Jesus does not mean "one" when Jesus says "one" both in John 10:30 and John 17:21-22 (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1213 in this thread), so you are under the delusion that. Jesus is not one with the Father despite Jesus truthfully declaring of the Father and Himself "We are One" (John 17:22). You are fixated on the temporal instead of the eternal.

moreover

By your writing, your illogic is illuminated, your linguistic foolishness abounds, and you expose your fleshly natural state of being (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1269 in this thread); consequently, (1) you deny the personification references of the Father as well as the Christ in scripture, (2) you deny the true meaning of "one" as shown near the pie example, (3) you deny Jesus' sayings of "We are One" (John 17:22) by adulterating His words with your limiting words from your heart, (4) you deny the Spiritual Truth (John 14:6) by imposing your temporal treasure on Jesus, (5) you change the language of Ephesians 1:4, and (6) you deny Jesus is God despite the testimony of scripture indicating that Jesus is God.

moreover

In a bout of linguistic foolishness, you preach that "I will be" is correct for Exodus 3:14 instead of "I AM" (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1280 in this thread); therefore, you convey that your heart's treasure is that God does change in direct contradiction to the Word of God saying "I, YHWH, do not change" (Malachi 3:6).

You have a false god that you created based on your thoughts that you named Jesus, yet your false god is not the Jesus revealed in the Word of God.

 

[Kermos]

Yes the word was with God--thus not God. There is only 1 God.

You do not escape the fact that for your heart, John 1:1 reads "the Word was a god" resulting in Jesus being a separate god from YHWH God thus your "a god" is before Jehovah for salvation; therefore, YOU are in violation of the commandant "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3).

Do not be deceived, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1) is the accurate translation as shown in this postto which you replied.

The Apostle John proclaims Jesus to be YHWH God with those words in John 1:1for there is One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Rich R]

You're contrivance of eyheh being "I will be" indicates that you think that YHWH God will become YHWH God at some time in the future after YHWH God speaks to Moses at the burning bush.

In other words, you think that YHWH God has to be created! This is according to your words of "I will be" for eyheh.

Either I wasn't clear (highly possible :)) or you misunderstood. What I said about YHWH is that He would be whatever Israel needed Him to be in order to get them out of Egypt and into the Promised Land. This is in direct contrast with all the other Ancient Near East Gods who had set functions and roles within the spiritual world. The sun god made the sun rise and set, and that was all he did, the storm god caused storms and that's all he did, etc, etc. YHWY was simply telling them that they only needed one God. The Hebrew imperfect verb can absolutely be understood in this way.

Truthfully (John 14:6), the declaration by YHWH God "I AM Who I AM" (Exodus 3:14) is directly referred to by Jesus in "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58) such that Jesus declares Himself to be YHWH God.

Forgetting for the moment that you added, "such that Jesus declares Himself to be YHWY God" to the text, we'll go ahead and say that this verse proves Jesus is God. OK. If that's the case, there are many things that need an explanation:

1. Who is God's God? (John 20:17, Rom 15:6, 2 Cor 1:3, et. al.)
2. Jesus is a man (Rom 5:15, Acts 2:22, Acts 17:31, et. al.) but God is NOT a man (Hos 11:9, Num 23:19)
3. Jesus increased in favor with God (Luk 2:52). YHWH increased in favor with Himself.
4. Jesus had a distinctly different will than YHWH (Luk 22:42, John 5:30, et. al.) God wasn't sure what He wanted.
   
5. One part of God is the head of another part (1 Cor 11:3) !
6. One part of God is greater than anther (John 14:28)
   
7. One part of God had a doctrine different than another part (John 7:16)
8. One part of God knew something another part didn't know (Matt 24:36)
9. One part of God had to show another part about the future (Rev 1:1)
10. God was made lower than the angels (Heb 2:9)
11. Jesus is called the Son of God about 35 times, whereas he is never called God the Son

John 17:3,

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee (his Father) the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
​

Was Jesus talking to himself here?

1 Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
​

All of these verses are simple, straight forward statements. They say what they mean and mean what they say.

In contrast, there are no such clear cut declarations that God is 3 essences in one person. Of course there is no verse that says God is a "trinity," let alone the requirement that one must believe the trinity in order to be saved. We don't have to use phrases such as, "the person of the father" or the "person of the son" etc. In short, there are no verses whatsoever that clearly state in no uncertain terms anything at all said by the trinity doctrine.

 

[Rich R]

You have a severe linguistic handicap, and/or you are just flat out a deceiver.

I clearly wrote to you "I convey that you, in your current state, do not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to you, and you cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised (1 Corinthians 2:14)"; on the other hand, you wrote "Where does it say the scriptures don't make sense? It certainly doesn't say that once born again, a person suddenly acquires the ability to make sense out of nonsense. Natural man does not make sense".

You wrongly frame the point, and this segues to the fact that you demonstrated a staggering level of linguistic errors, omissions, and/or misrepresentations as shown in the following links

You wickedly promote mere humans to being God while you evilly demote Jesus from being God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #848 in this thread), and you deceptively try to confuse Jesus' special place as Immanuel, God with us (Matthew 1:23, Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6).

moreover

In your heart, you subtract the Apostle Thomas saying "my God" to Lord Jesus (John 20:28) in the context of Thomas' usage (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #870 in this thread), so you deny Apostolic testimony.

moreover

You desperately try to change the Word of God into "that they also may be one with us" in John 17:21-22, so you are making yourself out to be greater than the Word of God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1003 in this thread), so you nullify the Word of God, Jesus (John 1:1, John 1:14) in your heart by exalting your thoughts above God's thoughts (Isaiah 55:8-9).

moreover

You foolishly claim the Greek "en" can mean "with", yet "en" truly means "in", and your foolishness targets your thoughts that Jesus does not mean "one" when Jesus says "one" both in John 10:30 and John 17:21-22 (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1213 in this thread), so you are under the delusion that. Jesus is not one with the Father despite Jesus truthfully declaring of the Father and Himself "We are One" (John 17:22). You are fixated on the temporal instead of the eternal.

moreover

By your writing, your illogic is illuminated, your linguistic foolishness abounds, and you expose your fleshly natural state of being (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1269 in this thread); consequently, (1) you deny the personification references of the Father as well as the Christ in scripture, (2) you deny the true meaning of "one" as shown near the pie example, (3) you deny Jesus' sayings of "We are One" (John 17:22) by adulterating His words with your limiting words from your heart, (4) you deny the Spiritual Truth (John 14:6) by imposing your temporal treasure on Jesus, (5) you change the language of Ephesians 1:4, and (6) you deny Jesus is God despite the testimony of scripture indicating that Jesus is God.

moreover

In a bout of linguistic foolishness, you preach that "I will be" is correct for Exodus 3:14 instead of "I AM" (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1280 in this thread); therefore, you convey that your heart's treasure is that God does change in direct contradiction to the Word of God saying "I, YHWH, do not change" (Malachi 3:6).

You have a false god that you created based on your thoughts that you named Jesus, yet your false god is not the Jesus revealed in the Word of God.

I'm glad I don't have to stand before you at the end.

1 Cor 4:3-5,

3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.

4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
​

The Lord Jesus will judge me.

John 5:22,

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:​

YWHY committed that privilege to Jesus. Wait a second; one part of God committing something to another part? What? Oh my, the web weaved by the trinity seemingly knows no boundaries.

 

[Rich R]

Truthfully (John 14:6), the declaration by YHWH God "I AM Who I AM" (Exodus 3:14) is directly referred to by Jesus in "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58) such that Jesus declares Himself to be YHWH God.

I take it you've still not researched how the ancient Jews viewed pre-existance? You really should, given that the scriptures were given to them some time ago and written in their terms. They certainly weren't weren't written last year in LA or New York.

 

[Kermos]

Either I wasn't clear (highly possible :)) or you misunderstood. What I said about YHWH is that He would be whatever Israel needed Him to be in order to get them out of Egypt and into the Promised Land. This is in direct contrast with all the other Ancient Near East Gods who had set functions and roles within the spiritual world. The sun god made the sun rise and set, and that was all he did, the storm god caused storms and that's all he did, etc, etc. YHWY was simply telling them that they only needed one God. The Hebrew imperfect verb can absolutely be understood in this way.

YHWH giving Moses commands at the burning bush (an in-progress event for Exodus 3:14) about delivering Israel from bondage in Egypt then providing the Promised Land to the Israelites, all this is currently present for the perspective of the dialog participants; in other words, "I AM Who I AM" (Exodus 3:14) are the words YHWH commanded Moses to pronounce while standing in front of Israel - in the present tense!

Israel may change, for example, from Egypt to Canaan, bur God does not change (Malachi 3:6).

The Word of God says "I, YHWH, do not change" (Malachi 3:6), so "I AM" is accurate and true for Exodus 3:14.

You, on the other hand, wickedly coney that God changes with your "I will be" for Exodus 3:14.

YOU DID IT AGAIN - YOU MISSPELLED YHWH GOD'S HOLY NAME! YOUR REPEATED DISREGARD FOR GOD'S NAME DEMONSTRATES JUST HOW LITTLE GOD MATTERS TO YOU!

Forgetting for the moment that you added, "such that Jesus declares Himself to be YHWY God" to the text, we'll go ahead and say that this verse proves Jesus is God. OK. If that's the case, there are many things that need an explanation:
Who is God's God? (John 20:17, Rom 15:6, 2 Cor 1:3, et. al.)
Jesus is a man (Rom 5:15, Acts 2:22, Acts 17:31, et. al.) but God is NOT a man (Hos 11:9, Num 23:19)
Jesus increased in favor with God (Luk 2:52). YHWH increased in favor with Himself.
Jesus had a distinctly different will than YHWH (Luk 22:42, John 5:30, et. al.) God wasn't sure what He wanted.
One part of God is the head of another part (1 Cor 11:3) !
One part of God is greater than anther (John 14:28)
One part of God had a doctrine different than another part (John 7:16)
One part of God knew something another part didn't know (Matt 24:36)
One part of God had to show another part about the future (Rev 1:1)
God was made lower than the angels (Heb 2:9)
Jesus is called the Son of God about 35 times, whereas he is never called God the Son
John 17:3,

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee (his Father) the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Was Jesus talking to himself here?

1 Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

All of these verses are simple, straight forward statements. They say what they mean and mean what they say.

In contrast, there are no such clear cut declarations that God is 3 essences in one person. Of course there is no verse that says God is a "trinity," let alone the requirement that one must believe the trinity in order to be saved. We don't have to use phrases such as, "the person of the father" or the "person of the son" etc. In short, there are no verses whatsoever that clearly state in no uncertain terms anything at all said by the trinity doctrine.

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Here is an instance of Jesus, truly God, saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of God thus including both the person of Jesus and the person of the Father in the One True God.

Here is another instance, this time of Jesus, truly Man, saying "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (John 20:17) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of Man thus including the person of Jesus and His brothers in one (John 17:21). See, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8).

We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.

We, born of the Holy Spirit of God persons (John 3:3-8), are one in God (John 17:21) because of the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17), thus God is One. We are the blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God's work in us.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

All of these verses are perfectly true, but you reject Jesus and you do not receive His sayings, so hear Jesus "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[tigger 2]

From Post 1280 by Kermos above:
All three of the phrases "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 are eyheh; therefore, the Word of God assigns the name "I AM" to YHWH God.

Now look at these other TaNaKh scriptures which use ehyeh and see how "I am" is the accurate translation:
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Genesis 26:3, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Genesis 31:3, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Exodus 3:12, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with your mouth" (Exodus 4:12, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with your mouth" (Exodus 4:15, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Deuteronomy 31:23, YLT)
......................................................

How do the KJV; RSV; NIV; NASB; NRSV; ESV; JB; etc. translate those verses?

"I Will Be"

Genesis 26:3 - Bible Gateway

 

[Keiw]

lol x100

So we bow and kiss an earthly kings feet but we should never bow and kiss the Feet of the LORD of Glory = KING of kings..........lolx100

Bow in obesiance to a -- king -- Jesus and kiss his feet.

 

[Keiw]

Genesis and Exodus and the Gospel declare their are THREE Elohim = FATHER SON HOLY SPIIRT

These THREE are ONE ELOHIM

Nowhere in Genesis and Exodus says its 3. The fact is the Hebrew rule = Elohim is not used plural for the true living God. Their God is a single being God, always was and always will be. How do you explain that fact?

 

[Keiw]

I will declare the decree:
The Lord has said to Me,
‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
You shall break them with a rod of iron;
You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’ ”

Now therefore, be wise, O kings;
Be instructed, you judges of the earth.
Serve the Lord with fear,
And rejoice with trembling.
Kiss the Son (worship), lest He be angry,
And you perish in the way,
When His wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.
Psalm 2

Proskenaue, mistranslated in trinity translations. It has 5 different meanings from Greek to english.
Yes the nations were given to the son from God. If he were God, they would already have been his.

 

[Keiw]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr @Rich R @Pierac @DavidB @MatthewG @tigger 2 @jaybird @NayborBear

Here is Apostolic testimony that Jesus is the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

The Apostle Paul calls Jesus "the great God" (τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ) with "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus" (Titus 2:13).

The Apostle Peter calls Jesus "our God" truly "the God" (τοῦ Θεοῦ) with "Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1).

The Apostle Thomas calls Jesus "my God" wirh "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).

The Apostle Matthew attests that Jesus is "God with us" Immanuel (Matthew 1:23) thus Jesus is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us the children of God (Revelation 1:8).

The Apostle John calls Jesus "the Word" and "God" with "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1).

If your translations arent filled with errors, then either Jesus lied-John 17:3--teaches the one who sent him= Father is THE ONLY TRUE GOD( every translation on earth) or none of its true. Its the only 2 choices. The best choice is to believe Jesus over errors.

 

[Keiw]

You do not escape the fact that for your heart, John 1:1 reads "the Word was a god" resulting in Jesus being a separate god from YHWH God thus your "a god" is before Jehovah for salvation; therefore, YOU are in violation of the commandant "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3).

Do not be deceived, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1) is the accurate translation as shown in this postto which you replied.

The Apostle John proclaims Jesus to be YHWH God with those words in John 1:1for there is One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

How many x do you have to be told? Small g god is not calling that one God. It means has godlike qualities. But your 2nd line at John 1:1 reads-God was with God if the word is God--that is 2 Gods, plus another one-holy spirit- over there.

 

[Rich R]

YHWH giving Moses commands at the burning bush (an in-progress event for Exodus 3:14) about delivering Israel from bondage in Egypt then providing the Promised Land to the Israelites, all this is currently present for the perspective of the dialog participants; in other words, "I AM Who I AM" (Exodus 3:14) are the words YHWH commanded Moses to pronounce while standing in front of Israel - in the present tense!

Israel may change, for example, from Egypt to Canaan, bur God does not change (Malachi 3:6).

The Word of God says "I, YHWH, do not change" (Malachi 3:6), so "I AM" is accurate and true for Exodus 3:14.

Or we could just as easily say that God does not change in the sense that He will always be whatever Israel needed Him to be.

YOU DID IT AGAIN - YOU MISSPELLED YHWH GOD'S HOLY NAME! YOUR REPEATED DISREGARD FOR GOD'S NAME DEMONSTRATES JUST HOW LITTLE GOD MATTERS TO YOU!

Yes I did misspell YHWH again. You caught me yet again making a mistake. On the other hand you keep making the same mistake every time you tell me that God matters little to me, ostensibly because I don't agree with you. Well, you don't agree with me, so am I to think you have little care for God? No thanks, In fact, I can see you care much about Him. I think you mistakenly misrepresent Him on certain points, but that does not reflect on your love or lack thereof for Him, nor does it change the love God has for you.

Besides, what a petty God it would be that would condemn someone for a misspell. Humans might do that, but not YHWH.

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Actually, Jesus did nothing "at his discretion."

John 8:28,

Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.​

Jesus never did what he wanted. He always did what God wanted him to do, so to say Jesus can do anything "at his discretion" is not scriptural.

Here is an instance of Jesus, truly God, saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of God thus including both the person of Jesus and the person of the Father in the One True God.

Here is another instance, this time of Jesus, truly Man, saying "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (John 20:17) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of Man thus including the person of Jesus and His brothers in one (John 17:21). See, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8).

Where does it say plainly that Jesus did anything "at his discretion?" I suppose it's convenient to think that so as to accord with the preconceived idea that Jesus is 100% God and 100% man, but it's not in the actual scriptures. It requires one to believe the "secret" teachings of Gnosticism. They had god-men galore.

We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.

Yes, it is a convenient way to wash changing the plain words of God into something that fits tradition, as nonsensical as it may be.

The other option is to read the simple words and just take them at face value. For example, we can twist the phrase "Son of God" into "God the Son" in order to make Jesus God, or we can take phrase "Son of God" at face value, understanding that a son and his father are two distinctly different entities.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Still haven't bothered to research how the ancient Jews viewed pre-existance, eh?

But if you are right about this verse, and it does say Jesus is God, you need to explain how one part of God will be subject to another part (1 Cor 15:28), as well as a bunch of the other clear cut, simple declarations I gave you that would absolutely preclude Jesus from being God.

All of these verses are perfectly true, but you reject Jesus and you do not receive His sayings, so hear Jesus "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

A petty God you apparently worship. What if it turns out I'm right and you're wrong?

As a matter of fact, regarding the nature of God and Jesus, I have no doubt you have been misled. But I'd never think God would punish you for that. He, more than any body, understands the power of tradition, that it can make His word of none effect (Matt 15:6). He's not going to hold it against you. If anything, He may ask why you so condemn one of His masterpieces (Eph 2:10), but He'll forgive that also. Even earthly parents forgive their children for very grievous offenses because of love. Well, God IS love!

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

We've been through this a few times. Is everybody with the name "el" or "y/ja" also God?

Joshua (YhowShu`a) is also God? How about Israel? There must be hundreds of other names with some form of God's name in them. A name is a name, nothing more. I live near the Southern border and not infrequently run into a Jesus. Am I to believe they're all God?

Besides, Mary and Joseph never named their son Immanuel.

 

[David in NJ]

Nowhere in Genesis and Exodus says its 3. The fact is the Hebrew rule = Elohim is not used plural for the true living God. Their God is a single being God, always was and always will be. How do you explain that fact?

You haven't read Genesis and taken notes on who the "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our Likess".

 

[Wrangler]

Actually, Jesus did nothing "at his discretion."

John 8:28,

Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Jesus never did what he wanted. He always did what God wanted him to do, so to say Jesus can do anything "at his discretion" is not scriptural.

Yes, it is a convenient way to wash changing the plain words of God into something that fits tradition, as nonsensical as it may be.

The other option is to read the simple words and just take them at face value. For example, we can twist the phrase "Son of God" into "God the Son" in order to make Jesus God, or we can take phrase "Son of God" at face value, understanding that a son and his father are two distinctly different entities.

Great, great points! Welcome Rich R.

 

[Rich R]

Israel may change, for example, from Egypt to Canaan, bur God does not change (Malachi 3:6).

The Word of God says "I, YHWH, do not change" (Malachi 3:6), so "I AM" is accurate and true for Exodus 3:14.

You, on the other hand, wickedly coney that God changes with your "I will be" for Exodus 3:14.

As you say, God does not change. Almost paradoxically, part of His not changing is His prerogative to change certain things depending on the choices people make.

Jer 18:6-10,

6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay [is] in the potter's hand, so [are] ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

7 [At what] instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy [it];

8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

9 And [at what] instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant [it];

10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
​

Just read what's written without preconceived ideas from tradition. These verses state in no uncertain terms that God can repent and change His course of action depending on what people do. There are numerous examples of God saying He was finished with Israel's nonsense only to change His mind when they turned back to Him.

Part of the beauty of God's plan, the logos of John 1:1, is that He can respond to anything people do by their free will, whether right or wrong, in such a way that his son, Jesus, arrived on the scene and redeemed mankind. It took God 4,000 years of patiently working with a bunch of morons (people - I'm being tongue and cheek here) who didn't know up from down spiritually. What genius YHWH showed in responding to man's free will to accomplish His ultimate purpose. He had to consider millions of changing factors every second and respond in such a way that man would eventually do His will. Of course, make the logos into Jesus and all of that means nothing.

But if it was God Himself who came down to fulfill the promise of a redeemer, it does open a question; why do suppose He waited 4,000 years to do that? I mean an awful lot of his most precious creation, people, suffered and died between Genesis 3:15 and Acts 2.

 

[Rich R]

The trinity is not in the Bible. With the possible exception of Luke, the entire Bible is written by monotheist Jews who reject the trinity to this day. Therefore, projecting trinitarian doctrine onto unitarian text is futile. .

I like to say the scriptures weren't written last year in LA or New York for Yankee Doodle Americans. It seems obvious, but is often forgotten, leading to many errors, the trinity being but one. But then again, even in America there has never been the idea that a son can be his own father. Actually, I don't know of anybody ever that thought such a thing. Trinitarians alone have the corner on that!

 

[Wrangler]

But if it was God Himself who came down to fulfill the promise of a redeemer, it does open a question; why do suppose He waited 4,000 years to do that? I mean an awful lot of his most precious creation, people, suffered and died between Genesis 3:15 and Acts 2.

My take on the time interval was so man would have the benefit of all this time to be convinced we cannot be holy on our own.

 

[Kermos]

Or we could just as easily say that God does not change in the sense that He will always be whatever Israel needed Him to be.


Yes I did misspell YHWH again. You caught me yet again making a mistake. On the other hand you keep making the same mistake every time you tell me that God matters little to me, ostensibly because I don't agree with you. Well, you don't agree with me, so am I to think you have little care for God? No thanks, In fact, I can see you care much about Him. I think you mistakenly misrepresent Him on certain points, but that does not reflect on your love or lack thereof for Him, nor does it change the love God has for you.

Besides, what a petty God it would be that would condemn someone for a misspell. Humans might do that, but not YHWH.



Actually, Jesus did nothing "at his discretion."

John 8:28,

Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Jesus never did what he wanted. He always did what God wanted him to do, so to say Jesus can do anything "at his discretion" is not scriptural.


Where does it say plainly that Jesus did anything "at his discretion?" I suppose it's convenient to think that so as to accord with the preconceived idea that Jesus is 100% God and 100% man, but it's not in the actual scriptures. It requires one to believe the "secret" teachings of Gnosticism. They had god-men galore.


Yes, it is a convenient way to wash changing the plain words of God into something that fits tradition, as nonsensical as it may be.

The other option is to read the simple words and just take them at face value. For example, we can twist the phrase "Son of God" into "God the Son" in order to make Jesus God, or we can take phrase "Son of God" at face value, understanding that a son and his father are two distinctly different entities.


Still haven't bothered to research how the ancient Jews viewed pre-existance, eh?

But if you are right about this verse, and it does say Jesus is God, you need to explain how one part of God will be subject to another part (1 Cor 15:28), as well as a bunch of the other clear cut, simple declarations I gave you that would absolutely preclude Jesus from being God.


A petty God you apparently worship. What if it turns out I'm right and you're wrong?

As a matter of fact, regarding the nature of God and Jesus, I have no doubt you have been misled. But I'd never think God would punish you for that. He, more than any body, understands the power of tradition, that it can make His word of none effect (Matt 15:6). He's not going to hold it against you. If anything, He may ask why you so condemn one of His masterpieces (Eph 2:10), but He'll forgive that also. Even earthly parents forgive their children for very grievous offenses because of love. Well, God IS love!


We've been through this a few times. Is everybody with the name "el" or "y/ja" also God?

Joshua (YhowShu`a) is also God? How about Israel? There must be hundreds of other names with some form of God's name in them. A name is a name, nothing more. I live near the Southern border and not infrequently run into a Jesus. Am I to believe they're all God?

Besides, Mary and Joseph never named their son Immanuel.

No, you cannot "just as easily say that God does not change in the sense that He will always be whatever Israel needed Him to be" because that is not what he Word of God says. Truly, the Word of God says "I, YHWH, do not change" (Malachi 3:6), so "I AM Who I AM" is accurate and true for Exodus 3:14; on the other hand, you adulterated the Word of God twice in one fell swoop:

• you convey that God changes according to the whims of Israel in diametric opposition to the Word of God thus you wickedly change Malachi 3:6.
• you convey that God must be created sometime in some way after the burning bush event with your "I will be" for Exodus 3:14 thus you wickedly change Exodus 3:14.

Even in your first sentence, you have the leaven that leads to death in your words as just demonstrated.

YOU MAKE NO PUBLIC APOLOGY TO GOD FOR YOUR REPEATED ABUSE OF THE HOLY NAME OF THE GOD MOST HIGH, YHWH, SO YOU PUBLICLY CEMENT YOUR DISREGARD FOR JUST HOW LITTLE GOD MATTERS TO YOU!

You are engaged in severe sin buy adult reading the Word of God and abusing the Name of God and denying who God is.

Oh, and by the way, you wrote "Actually, Jesus did nothing 'at his discretion.'", yet Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16). Behold Jesus says "chose", and that chose conveys discretion. Jesus is taught well by the Father (John 8:28). You have demonstrated your heart's ability to adulterate the Word of God, again. Wrangler, since you wrote:

Great, great points! Welcome Rich R.

then your accolades for Rich R demonstrates your lack of Spiritual scriptural acumen in this thread again as shown in this post.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).