Run AWAY from Calvinism!

[Johann]

And I heard you about not being able to have access to books and bibles. I fought very hard my urge to ask for an address where I could send you some of my classics and whatever other gift might help you because I was afraid it would just make you even angrier.

I have a e Sword
J.

 

[reformed1689]

Close. The good news is the that He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:1-2) And that is WHY this man should trust (believe) in Him.

Do you know what "the world" is in John's writings?

Yep both Jew and Gentile. All people groups. Not all individuals. Why you want to force whole world to mean all individuals is beyond me.

 

[reformed1689]

He’s not willing that anyone should perish. That’s a verse. That’s saying He does not want anyone to perish. So we know what God wants. Yet you say the idea that God wants to save every individual is “bad theology.” You are just boxing at the air.

No, that is not a verse. That is PART of a verse that is PART of an overall passage. What sloppy handling of Scripture!

The verse you are referencing, out of context, is 2 Peter 3:9 which states:
9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. (ESV)

So yes, it does say "not wishing that any should perish" but that is one phrase out of the verse. The question is who is the any. The context is he is talking about the "you" and who are the "you"?? You don't get it from taking verse 9 out of context. You need to look at the whole passage. The you is the beloved, those who are elect.

God is patient to not destroy the world now, to not come now, as the scoffers mock us that he has not done, because there are more to be saved. There are more elect out there. This verse in no way is saying God wants every individual to be saved. The only way to make it say that is to ignore everything except that one phrase itself and that is sloppy exegesis and a mishandling of the Scripture.

 

[marks]

I get that you have a problem comprehending the truth, but no, it is not an empty offer. It is genuine, they just don't WANT it.

Your insults aside . . . we can focus on the content . . . some of us can focus on the content anyway . . .

You seem reluctant to accept a clear part of your POV, that ALL didn't want it. According to you, NO One wants it. They CANNOT want it. That's the point. They are not ABLE to want it. You aren't just talking about someone making their own choice, according to you, no one makes their own choice.

But than it seems that Calvinists do tend to bury that part of it.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I have a e Sword
J.

That's my most used Bible software, I love it! That and Scripture4all.org, which also lets you download the software.

Much love!

 

[reformed1689]

Your insults aside . . . we can focus on the content . . . some of us can focus on the content anyway . . .

You seem reluctant to accept a clear part of your POV, that ALL didn't want it. According to you, NO One wants it. They CANNOT want it. That's the point. They are not ABLE to want it. You aren't just talking about someone making their own choice, according to you, no one makes their own choice.

But than it seems that Calvinists do tend to bury that part of it.

Much love!

I have been clear, their choice is their sin. Are they able to come out of that? No, Scripture is CLEAR we are in bondage to our sin. Enslaved to our sin. I'm not burying anything. I've been crystal clear. Nobody wants God. They are enslaved to their sin.

You want absolute free will, that doesn't exist. That's not reality.

 

[Johann]

That's my most used Bible software, I love it! That and Scripture4all.org, which also lets you download the software.

Much love!

Thank you brother
Blessings to you and family
Johann

 

[Lambano]

Yep both Jew and Gentile. All people groups. Not all individuals. Why you want to force whole world to mean all individuals is beyond me.

We know that we are of God, and that the κόσμος ὅλος ("all Jewish and Gentile believers") lies in the power of the evil one. (1 John 5:19)

Sorry, but your proposed usage is totally inconsistent with how John uses κόσμος in his writings. Christophany gave a comprehensive summary in a couple of earlier posts. On the other hand, "all individuals" is a much more natural reading of ὅλου τοῦ κόσμου and does not require performing an unnatural act on the text.

 

[reformed1689]

We know that we are of God, and that the κόσμος ὅλος ("all Jewish and Gentile believers") lies in the power of the evil one. (1 John 5:19)

Sorry, but your proposed usage is totally inconsistent with how John uses κόσμος in his writings. Christophany gave a comprehensive summary in a couple of earlier posts. On the other hand, "all individuals" is a much more natural reading of ὅλου τοῦ κόσμου and does not require performing an unnatural act on the text.

Totally inconsistent with how John uses Kosmos in his writings? Oh brother.

John uses the word world in a MYRIAD of ways in his writings. In fact, through his five books, he uses the root 109 times in 89 different verses.


You cannot honestly say each time he uses the word world it means all individuals.

 

[Johann]

We know that we are of God, and that the κόσμος ὅλος ("all Jewish and Gentile believers") lies in the power of the evil one. (1 John 5:19)

Sorry, but your proposed usage is totally inconsistent with how John uses κόσμος in his writings. Christophany gave a comprehensive summary in a couple of earlier posts. On the other hand, "all individuals" is a much more natural reading of ὅλου τοῦ κόσμου and does not require performing an unnatural act on the text.

ὅλος holos (ho'-los) adj.
1. whole or all, i.e. complete (in extent, amount, time or degree).
2. (especially, neuter, as noun or adverb) all.
[a primary word]

ὅλος ἐν τῷ πονηρῷ ...κεῖται..Lambano I concur what you are saying but why is κεῖται in the Middle Voice? Or should we read it as Passive?


Part of Speech: Verb
Tense: Present
Voice: middle or passive depoNent
Mood: Indicative
Person: third [he/she/it]
Number: Singular

Is it really speaking of all individuals or the whole world as a whole?
I am no scholar, so forgive me for asking..
J.

 

[marks]

I can’t let you know where I think you are wrong because I honestly don’t know what you were saying.

I don't know what your "dark nights" seem to you to be, I can only relate my own life experience.

When I was first born again in 1981, immediately following my water baptism, which was my first act done to demonstrate my newfound faith, I became completely "quiet" inside. No passions, not good passions, not evil passions, nothing. No lust no joy no nothing. I still remember it. I had no concept of what was happening, only that every seemed to expect something different from where I was at. I had a completely flat emotional affect, with no sense of need or desire or anything. And I had no sense of God, with me, speaking to me, nothing. This lasted for about a week, and when my feelings and such returned, they were different. And I discovered that as I began to read the Bible, it was different.

After about 5-6 years, I had returned to much of my sin, and over the next 10 years or so, I lived an up/down sort of life. But the stranglehold of my sin grew worse and worse and I was miserable.

God had prepared some things that came into play, and re-awakened my faith, enough at least for me to hold up my sinfulness to Him, begging Him to take it away.

Then came that emptiness, the emptying out of all emotion, no sense of need or desire, no sense of anything really, and no sense of God with me, I only knew that I needed to just keep trusting Him, and to just wait. I don't remember exactly, 2-3 weeks or so, the darkness started to lift, I started feeling more normal. Not long later, I was praying to God for more of His power in my life. He directed me towards my then pastor laying his hands on me in prayer. After that prayer, joy came flooding in more than I'd ever known. I could sense the power that was just pouring into me. I KNEW my life would never be the same after that. And it wasn't.

I began to receive gifts to minister with, and began to serve. That was about 20 years ago.

And as the years went by, I still continued to struggle with the same things that have plagued my life. Entangled in the same sins that entangled me in the past.

The third time was different.

It was a deep pit of misery and darkness in the hopelessness of flesh. Hope in God was a tiny point of light in the distance that I don't know if it was even real. I wanted to be dead, and I didn't know if it was ever going to end. After 5 weeks it started to lift,

But God was there with me, in His Word.

Two very notable things had happened before this began. One was that God had moved in me to read Ecclesiastes, which I did over and over, day after day, for maybe a month. I'd read it 4-5 times a day, maybe more. I made a CD and played it in my car as I drove. I played it on my computer at work, and doing chores. I'd take the book in 8 or 10 times a day, more, reading/listening to the book hundreds of times.

During that time of darkness, I ended up confronting the deepest issues in me, and in each case, the words of Ecclesiates answered each one. It's hard to describe the changes in me from this. But I see the Spirit of God, and the fleshy me, plainly within me. The inner and outer man have ceased to be a mystery to me.

The other thing that had happened was this. One night, feeling broken, ruined, "damaged goods", God directed me to Psalm 129, and as I read this short Psalm, the words gripped me,

Psalms 129:1-3 KJV
1) A Song of degrees. Many a time have they afflicted me from my youth, may Israel now say:
2) Many a time have they afflicted me from my youth: yet they have not prevailed against me.
3) The plowers plowed upon my back: they made long their furrows.

This was me. Damaged in childhood as the wicked carved me up.

Psalms 129:4 KJV
4) The LORD is righteous: he hath cut asunder the cords of the wicked.

As I read the word "cut", I could sense inside something cut, falling away from me, gone. I sat there, wondering what had just happened, hoping it was what I thought it could be, afraid to believe it. I knew if this was real, I'd know soon enough.

After about 3 days, I was convinced. God had cut away the effects of flesh from me. Or, I'm still trying to find the words to properly describe this, but it was living with a completely silenced flesh. My trust in God was full, complete, life was peaceful, joyful, wonderful! The Word was alive, my spirit walked in life only. And I enjoyed an unending communion with Jesus. I had no sense of ever being disobedient, only that I did what I wanted, and what I wanted was what God wanted.

This lasted about 5 weeks, "Lord plant my feet on higher ground!" That's what He did.

I remember, though, talking to my friend one day, who experienced his life a lot like I had, and I realized, I couldn't help him! I could tell Him God has released me from the evil inside, and I hope He does for you to! But I couldn't give any real answers!

I asked God to enable me to share this life with others. Not too many days later, that season ended. I remember the exact moment.

So when the next great darkness started, it was with that recent memory of the days of walking in the light.

The message from Ecclesiastes is that no matter what, we are not going to escape from the "plight of humanity", all are subject to reality, and this is reality. We are heavenly creatures living in a depraved and evil world of sin and shame and corruption, with bodies fit for that world.

I've seen the light and the darkness, and I've learned the darkness is great darkness, but the light is greater light.

I'm sorry for how long this is getting!

I've learned that by faith we can walk in that light, free from all ravages of corrupt flesh.

I've learned that I can live in a couple of different ways. One of them is to struggle in my character against sin. To make great mental and emotional efforts to resist temptation and sin. The other is to just know that Jesus accepts me as His own, no matter what else, and in that knowledge, the flesh is quiet. Law provokes sin. ". . . the motions of sin in our members, which is by the Law . . ."

It seems counterintuitive . . . When I stop thinking that sin takes me away from God, I stop sinning. While I trust that I'm am always accepted by God, because my acceptance is in Jesus Christ, not me, while I'm trusting in that, I have full access into the Spirit walk of victory, and life is like those 5 weeks, completely free, joyful, peaceful, faithful, loving, self-controlled. When I start to think I'm disqualifying myself, that my sin will condemn me, I do what everyone does in that situation, I try to hide.

That's what everyone does. When you see you sin, you hide from God. But in Christ, we no longer have to hide, we can come boldly to obtain help . . . when we need it, not when we don't! God doesn't push us away when we need Him most, when we've become entangled in our sin! No. Even when we are walking in the works of the flesh, we are reconciled to God in Christ, and He can release us from that snare in a moment!

I've learned that we choose whether we will trust Him or not, and in choosing to trust Him, we have power to overcome everything.

Much love!

 

[marks]

We know that we are of God, and that the κόσμος ὅλος ("all Jewish and Gentile believers") lies in the power of the evil one. (1 John 5:19)

Sorry, but your proposed usage is totally inconsistent with how John uses κόσμος in his writings. Christophany gave a comprehensive summary in a couple of earlier posts. On the other hand, "all individuals" is a much more natural reading of ὅλου τοῦ κόσμου and does not require performing an unnatural act on the text.

It's inclusive language. Plain and simple.

Much love!

 

[reformed1689]

It's inclusive language. Plain and simple.

Much love!

Then you have to reconcile that with the places that John uses exclusive language. This is what happens when you take one verse out of context, you come up with a bogus interpretation.

 

[Johann]

Calvinism is an unsettled theology.
Calvinists are seriously divided among themselves and
always have been. There is Supralapsarianism vs.
Sublapsarianism vs. Infralapsarianism. “The Supralapsarians
hold that God decreed the fall of Adam; the Sublapsarians,
that he permitted it” (McClintock & Strong). The Calvinists at The Calvinism Debate
14
the Synod of Dort were divided on many issues. Te Swiss
Calvinists who wrote the Helve tic Consensus Formula in
1675 were in conflict with the French Calvinists of the School
of Saumur. There are Strict Calvinists and Moderate
Calvinists, Hyper and non-Hyper Calvinists (differing
especially on reprobation and the extent of the atonement
and whether God loves all men), 5 pointers, 4 pointers, 3
pointers, and 2 pointers. In America, Calvinists were divided
into Old School and New School.
Whenever, therefore, one tries to state TULIP theology and
refute it, there are Calvinists who will claim that you are
misrepresenting Calvinism. You might be quoting directly
from various Calvinists or even from Calvin himself. Te
problem is that you are misrepresenting THEIR Calvinism!
Is this correct?

 

[Johann]

Calvinism is an unsettled theology.
Calvinists are seriously divided among themselves and
always have been. There is Supralapsarianism vs.
Sublapsarianism vs. Infralapsarianism. “The Supralapsarians
hold that God decreed the fall of Adam; the Sublapsarians,
that he permitted it” (McClintock & Strong). The Calvinists at The Calvinism Debate
14
the Synod of Dort were divided on many issues. Te Swiss
Calvinists who wrote the Helve tic Consensus Formula in
1675 were in conflict with the French Calvinists of the School
of Saumur. There are Strict Calvinists and Moderate
Calvinists, Hyper and non-Hyper Calvinists (differing
especially on reprobation and the extent of the atonement
and whether God loves all men), 5 pointers, 4 pointers, 3
pointers, and 2 pointers. In America, Calvinists were divided
into Old School and New School.
Whenever, therefore, one tries to state TULIP theology and
refute it, there are Calvinists who will claim that you are
misrepresenting Calvinism. You might be quoting directly
from various Calvinists or even from Calvin himself. Te
problem is that you are misrepresenting THEIR Calvinism!
Is this correct?

...and if it is I want no part of it.

 

[Lambano]

Is it really speaking of all individuals or the whole world as a whole?

I understand what you're saying about the "whole world as a whole", i.e. the whole created world system in which we live. All individuals are IN the world-system, even those who can no longer be considered OF the world-system.

 

[Lambano]

I don't know what your "dark nights" seem to you to be, I can only relate my own life experience.

When I was first born again in 1981, immediately following my water baptism, which was my first act done to demonstrate my newfound faith, I became completely "quiet" inside. No passions, not good passions, not evil passions, nothing. No lust no joy no nothing. I still remember it. I had no concept of what was happening, only that every seemed to expect something different from where I was at. I had a completely flat emotional affect, with no sense of need or desire or anything. And I had no sense of God, with me, speaking to me, nothing. This lasted for about a week, and when my feelings and such returned, they were different. And I discovered that as I began to read the Bible, it was different.

After about 5-6 years, I had returned to much of my sin, and over the next 10 years or so, I lived an up/down sort of life. But the stranglehold of my sin grew worse and worse and I was miserable.

God had prepared some things that came into play, and re-awakened my faith, enough at least for me to hold up my sinfulness to Him, begging Him to take it away.

Then came that emptiness, the emptying out of all emotion, no sense of need or desire, no sense of anything really, and no sense of God with me, I only knew that I needed to just keep trusting Him, and to just wait. I don't remember exactly, 2-3 weeks or so, the darkness started to lift, I started feeling more normal. Not long later, I was praying to God for more of His power in my life. He directed me towards my then pastor laying his hands on me in prayer. After that prayer, joy came flooding in more than I'd ever known. I could sense the power that was just pouring into me. I KNEW my life would never be the same after that. And it wasn't.

I began to receive gifts to minister with, and began to serve. That was about 20 years ago.

And as the years went by, I still continued to struggle with the same things that have plagued my life. Entangled in the same sins that entangled me in the past.

The third time was different.

It was a deep pit of misery and darkness in the hopelessness of flesh. Hope in God was a tiny point of light in the distance that I don't know if it was even real. I wanted to be dead, and I didn't know if it was ever going to end. After 5 weeks it started to lift,

But God was there with me, in His Word.

Two very notable things had happened before this began. One was that God had moved in me to read Ecclesiastes, which I did over and over, day after day, for maybe a month. I'd read it 4-5 times a day, maybe more. I made a CD and played it in my car as I drove. I played it on my computer at work, and doing chores. I'd take the book in 8 or 10 times a day, more, reading/listening to the book hundreds of times.

During that time of darkness, I ended up confronting the deepest issues in me, and in each case, the words of Ecclesiates answered each one. It's hard to describe the changes in me from this. But I see the Spirit of God, and the fleshy me, plainly within me. The inner and outer man have ceased to be a mystery to me.

The other thing that had happened was this. One night, feeling broken, ruined, "damaged goods", God directed me to Psalm 129, and as I read this short Psalm, the words gripped me,

Psalms 129:1-3 KJV
1) A Song of degrees. Many a time have they afflicted me from my youth, may Israel now say:
2) Many a time have they afflicted me from my youth: yet they have not prevailed against me.
3) The plowers plowed upon my back: they made long their furrows.

This was me. Damaged in childhood as the wicked carved me up.

Psalms 129:4 KJV
4) The LORD is righteous: he hath cut asunder the cords of the wicked.

As I read the word "cut", I could sense inside something cut, falling away from me, gone. I sat there, wondering what had just happened, hoping it was what I thought it could be, afraid to believe it. I knew if this was real, I'd know soon enough.

After about 3 days, I was convinced. God had cut away the effects of flesh from me. Or, I'm still trying to find the words to properly describe this, but it was living with a completely silenced flesh. My trust in God was full, complete, life was peaceful, joyful, wonderful! The Word was alive, my spirit walked in life only. And I enjoyed an unending communion with Jesus. I had no sense of ever being disobedient, only that I did what I wanted, and what I wanted was what God wanted.

This lasted about 5 weeks, "Lord plant my feet on higher ground!" That's what He did.

I remember, though, talking to my friend one day, who experienced his life a lot like I had, and I realized, I couldn't help him! I could tell Him God has released me from the evil inside, and I hope He does for you to! But I couldn't give any real answers!

I asked God to enable me to share this life with others. Not too many days later, that season ended. I remember the exact moment.

So when the next great darkness started, it was with that recent memory of the days of walking in the light.

The message from Ecclesiastes is that no matter what, we are not going to escape from the "plight of humanity", all are subject to reality, and this is reality. We are heavenly creatures living in a depraved and evil world of sin and shame and corruption, with bodies fit for that world.

I've seen the light and the darkness, and I've learned the darkness is great darkness, but the light is greater light.

I'm sorry for how long this is getting!

I've learned that by faith we can walk in that light, free from all ravages of corrupt flesh.

I've learned that I can live in a couple of different ways. One of them is to struggle in my character against sin. To make great mental and emotional efforts to resist temptation and sin. The other is to just know that Jesus accepts me as His own, no matter what else, and in that knowledge, the flesh is quiet. Law provokes sin. ". . . the motions of sin in our members, which is by the Law . . ."

It seems counterintuitive . . . When I stop thinking that sin takes me away from God, I stop sinning. While I trust that I'm am always accepted by God, because my acceptance is in Jesus Christ, not me, while I'm trusting in that, I have full access into the Spirit walk of victory, and life is like those 5 weeks, completely free, joyful, peaceful, faithful, loving, self-controlled. When I start to think I'm disqualifying myself, that my sin will condemn me, I do what everyone does in that situation, I try to hide.

That's what everyone does. When you see you sin, you hide from God. But in Christ, we no longer have to hide, we can come boldly to obtain help . . . when we need it, not when we don't! God doesn't push us away when we need Him most, when we've become entangled in our sin! No. Even when we are walking in the works of the flesh, we are reconciled to God in Christ, and He can release us from that snare in a moment!

I've learned that we choose whether we will trust Him or not, and in choosing to trust Him, we have power to overcome everything.

Much love!

So many beautiful testimonies I've read in the past 24 hours!

 

[Johann]

So many beautiful testimonies I've read in the past 24 hours!

...and this amazes me, this is an open forum, everyone can read it, sounds like open confession and no one knows the other...??

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I know of no such thing as biblical Calvinism--only biblical Christianity.

Well they are the same then!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The thing I have noticed most often (and, infact, virtually always) is a tenacious insistence that God is arbitrarily sovereign, and that this aspect of His character must be considered above all else. This I cannot accept, and if its acceptance is required to be saved, I shall surely be lost. I would rather burn in hell forever than serve a God who loves evil.

that is too bad! for God is absolute sovereign in Creation and as He said in Isaiah He will not share His glory with anyone else!