Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Eternally Grateful]

Hebrews 10:14
“For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.”

Sometimes the Bible speaks of things from a hindsight or finished perspective. In other words, Hebrews 10:14 is in reference to the saints in whom God knows who will have endured to the end in their Sanctification. These saints were faithful unto death. These were the saints that are forever perfected. They are sanctified because they finished the race and run their course.

There is an issue with this thinking

It says the work of perfecting forever is completed now. Not in the future when we die.

and the act of sanctification is ongoing

 

[Michiah-Imla]

@Bible Highlighter


“And such were some of you: but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God.” (1 Corinthians 6:11)

“Were”, past tense, sanctified.

I choose what the Bible says here. And if it doesn’t fit with my status, I better make some changes in my life, not in the Bible.

Peace.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Bible Highlighter


“And such were some of you: but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God.” (1 Corinthians 6:11)

“Were”, past tense, sanctified.

I choose what the Bible says here. And if it doesn’t fit with my status, I better make some changes in my life, not in the Bible.

Peace.

Again, 1 Corinthians 6:11 is a different kind of sanctification in being washed or cleaned by God’s Spirit when we first come to the Lord. It’s not talking about the Spirit helping us to live more holy in our walk with God (Which is evident by the many verses I presented so far). Sanctification to live a holy life progressively is a different kind of Sanctification mentioned in the Bible than what is mentioned here in 1 Corinthians 6:11. This is supported by the context.

 

[PinSeeker]

Many that follow the doctrine of sola fide teach faith is not a work.

Of man, Titus. They teach that faith is not a work of man. And it's not; scripture affirms that it's not.

The Bible teaches faith is a work, a work of God, John 6:28-29.

Absolutely. This is exactly what Calvin said, and exactly what I have said. Ephesians 2:8 is a good proof text also. So good; we seem to be on the same page. That's great.

Therefore faith only and no works salvation is proven false.

As I said before, what you say here (which is really in contrast to what you said before) is true. Sola Fide, Titus, is justification by faith alone, not "salvation by faith alone," which you seem to keep defining it as. We are created for good works, so works are excluded from God's justification; we can do nothing, which includes obedience and good works, to merit or deserve God's justification.

It is impossible to be saved without works.

Well, yes, but in the sense that if there are no good works, then there was no justification by God and there was never any gift of saving faith given by God. But if this justification does occur and faith is given by God, then the good works inevitably follow, because yes, the person then has been saved and is being saved.

Calvinist teach salvation is BEFORE faith in Christ.

No they don't.

Calvinism teaches faith is not something man does.

The Bible teaches that. Saving faith is not something man can somehow manufacture in himself. Yet again, faith ~ as defined in Hebrews 11:1 ~ is the the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. This assurance and conviction comes from God. It cannot come from man, even the self, because it's no real assurance at all. It has to come from outside of man, else there is no real assurance.

If we have not the ability to believe...

See, nobody says that. We have the ability, but until God works faith in us, we will not believe in Him, because we are wholly inclined against Him.

Calvinism makes God guilty for all of the unbelievers.

Absolutely not. This is what people who only think they are thinking think. :)

You have contradicted your doctrine of Sola fide.

No, I've only refuted your mangled take on it, you're twisting of it into something it's not, which is a good thing.

Calvinism teaches as Pinseeker just did. That, salvation is apart from works...

Nope. See above. Justification is apart from works, not salvation. Is you misrepresentation of what I have said inadvertent or purposeful? Frankly, since you do it over and over again, it seems purposeful, which would, if true, constitute lying. No matter, though, misrepresentation it is.

The contradiction is, Calvinist's teach faith itself is a work. This is more double talk.
Faith is a work according to Scripture. John 6:28-29.

A work of God, not man. See above. Faith is not what's being talked about in John 6:28-29. In verse 29, Jesus Himself says, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him Whom He has sent.” Jesus affirms that our believing in Him (Jesus) Whom (Jesus) He (the Father) has sent is itself a work of God. Saving faith ~ yet again ~ is not woodenly belief itself. Saving faith is an assurance, which is a positive declaration given by God ~ issued inwardly to us by the Holy Spirit, Who gives us new birth ~ which inevitably results in our belief. Belief is our acceptance of an this assurance, which we cannot help but do once having received the assurance of God, and conviction by the Holy Spirit.

PinSeeker: But good works ~ and obedience ~ are the natural result of, and therefore validation regarding the gift of salvation and faith
This is another contradiction in Pinseekers doctrine. Since works validates true faith. Faith without validation is faith without any works.

This doesn't even make any sense. Good works are evidence of the true faith (assurance of God) we have been given, and thus outward validation of that faith to others, whether they realize it or not. And this is exactly what James says in chapter 2 of his epistle, as I said:

If saved without works as Pinseeker teaches...

I don't teach that. How many times does it take for you, Titus, before you quit mangling what I'm saying and turning it into something it's not, even quite opposite of what it is? How many?

There is no such thing as salvation without works...

I wholeheartedly agree. If good works do not manifest themselves in the man ~ if he does not do those good works ~ then he never received a true faith from God, and thus the faith he has, whatever it is really in, is dead.

Faith itself is a work, John 6:28-29.

Again, a work of God, not man. See above. Faith is not what's being talked about in John 6:28-29. In verse 29, Jesus Himself says, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him Whom He has sent.” Jesus affirms that our believing in Him (Jesus) Whom (Jesus) He (the Father) has sent is itself a work of God. Saving faith ~ yet again ~ is not woodenly belief itself. Saving faith is an assurance, which is a positive declaration given by God ~ issued inwardly to us by the Holy Spirit, Who gives us new birth ~ which inevitably results in our belief. Belief is our acceptance of this assurance, which we cannot help but do because it is the assurance of God, and conviction by the Holy Spirit.

We are saved by the works of God.

Absolutely. And our own works, which are the result of God's work in us (Philippians 2:13).

My goodness. Get ready for more mangling, I guess...

:)

Grace and peace to you, Titus.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Bible Highlighter


“And such were some of you: but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God.” (1 Corinthians 6:11)

“Were”, past tense, sanctified.

I choose what the Bible says here. And if it doesn’t fit with my status, I better make some changes in my life, not in the Bible.

Peace.

Obviously “sin and still be saved type believers” see “Progressive Sanctification in living a holy life by the Spirit” differently than I do. I don’t believe a Christian can justify sin and be saved. They may say they don’t justify sin, but then they turn around and imply that by quoting the false OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8, Isaiah 64:6, etcetera.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Again, 1 Corinthians 6:11 is a different kind of sanctification

I don’t recall a verse of scripture that teaches that there are different kinds of sanctification.

Unless you can plainly show the biblical bases that spells this out without ambiguity you are in error here along with @Eternally Grateful

I’m a frequent reader of the Bible and what you’re saying is alien to me.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I don’t recall a verse of scripture that teaches that there are different kinds of sanctification.

Unless you can plainly show the biblical bases that spells this out without ambiguity you are in error here along with @Eternally Grateful

I’m a frequent reader of the Bible and what you’re saying is alien to me.

once again, there is positional sanctification. we are sanctified

then their is christian growth or conditional sanctification. As shown all through the NT. A babe in christ is not as sanctified as an adult in Christ. why you would think otherwise is beyond me. CHristian grown is ongoing and will continue until we die.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

once again, there is positional sanctification. we are sanctified

then their is christian growth or conditional sanctification. As shown all through the NT.

Words like “positional” are tool words for heresy.

Show me where the scripture speaks of different types of sanctification.

I read the Bible frequently and this sounds to me like unbiblical nonsense.

“And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.” (John 10:5)

 

[Taken]

I am not going to address all your misunderstandings of Scripture

Beginning your opening statement with a preconceived (psychology tactic) is a fail.

So I am going to simply deal with one of my favorite verses that you have misinterpreted. 1 John 1:9. You say this is dealing with when we are first saved. It’s odd.

1 John 1:9 is in context to 1 John 2:1 where John says for us to “sin not” but if we do by some chance we have an advocate that we can go to named Jesus Christ.

1 John 1:
[9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse from all unrighteousness.

1 John 2:
[1] My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1 John 1:9.........
APPLIES to one who is a: BELIEVER, Jesus IS the Christ, Son of God,
And believes he has Sinned or is continuing to Sin. IF he continues BELIEVING, continues to sin, he CONTINUES to HAVE an Advocate.

1 John 2:
APPLIES to Little Children “indicating” newer to BELIEVING, direction that to NOT commit Sin, is an upfront goal, but as you try and stumble along the way, you have an advocate Jesus the Christ....that you ARE already BELIEVING “IN”, IF he continues “BELIEVING IN”, and sins, he continues having an Advocate.

When a person IS BELIEVING, like a little child first learning something new, they stumble. We have example of Jesus’ own chosen disciples, grown men, first learning, stumbling, (even the most egregious stumble, of DENYING Jesus before other men) yet in his heart continuing to BELIEVE.

We obviously are to confess of our sins to Jesus Christ.

Not in question.
What is in question is ...... WHO is we, us, me, my.... and WHAT precisely does and does not APPLY to them.

Christianity is a Religion. The ASSUMPTION is every man professing to be a Christian ARE the exact same; We/ Us......they aren’t.

Every person is an Individual. Every Individual being lead, choosing to step on the path through the narrow gate....while all are on the same path, they are on their own Individual Journey, to their end.

Scripture IMO, does a most excellent job of specifically addressing, Individuals in different stages of their Individual Journey.

While I believe God did place chapter and verses numbers later in the Bible, they technically were not there in the original writings. Sometimes a particular point or thought flows from one chapter into the next. This is one of those cases. Just reread 1 John 1:9 to 1 John 2:1 and it is clear that is all one continued thought or point. Granted, the whole letter or epistle has a connected overall theme or thought to the believers he was writing to. But John is not switching in changing topics between 1 John 1:9 and 1 John 2:1.

I am the ONE who is Qualified to speak what Scripturally applies to me, Since I am the ONE, who knows, what I read, what I study, what I believe, how long, what I do, what I do not do...

Already when through the little child stage, wondering, believing, hearing, reading, questioning, believing, Praying IN Jesus Name, tripping up, Repenting, Praying, Believing....
1) When I was (BELIEVING in) I was “with” the Lord, the Lord was “with” me .
2) Repeatedly the Lord was my Advocate, and repeatedly I could stumble, and repent.
3) And I “could have” continued that for the rest of my natural life.
4) I picked and chose how often, how much, how little, I heard, read, studied, spent time with the Lord.
5) And WHEN on the day I physically died, IS WHEN I WOULD HAVE BECOME SAVED.
6) On that ONE day I would Receive my Salvation, Nothing whatsoever would “undo” my salvation.
7) called born of God,
8) can sin, can appeal to my Advocate Jesus, can get back on track from my stumble, or can walk away, stay away, and not become saved.

Beyond BELIEVING, I chose to Give my Life unto Death (Crucified with Christ), Repent, CONFESS, to the Lord and receive His Once and forever Sin Forgiveness, His Once and Forever Salvation of my soul, His Once and Forever Quickening of my spirit, circumcision of my heart, etc. and Baptism of the Holy Spirit, His Spirit dwelling “IN” me, etc.
* NOW BEYOND BELIEVING (and hoping I endure to my end of physical life);
* The Lord IS “WITH” me AND “IN” me, Called CONVERTED IN Christ.
* I am free from Sin, can not Sin. Can not Fall away, am born of God, am begotten of God, am a son of God, am sanctified, am not subject to Wrath, am justified to be redeemed by the Lord, to meet Him in the air, and forever be WITH Him, etc.
* Saved ONCE, and forever.
* The Lords POWER IN me KEEPS ME WITH Him Forever.
* Nothing whatsoever can “undo” my Salvation.

Not every passage of Scripture applies to Unbelievers, to Jews, to Gentiles, to Believers, and not every passage that does apply to the Converted applies to Believers.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Words like “positional” are tool words for heresy.

Show me where the scripture speaks of different types of sanctification.

I read the Bible frequently and this sounds to me like unbiblical nonsense.

“And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.” (John 10:5)

I see two kinds of Sanctification but one is being cleansed by the Spirit which is what 1 Corinthians 6:11 is talking about.

1 Corinthians 6:11
“And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified,
but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.”

This sounds like a past one time event or experience in being saved by God’s grace, and in receiving the Holy Spirit (who gives a new heart, and life).

Then there is 1 Thessalonians 4:3 that says,
“For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:”

This sounds like a holy action (abstaining from fornication) tied in with our sanctification.

So there is a sanctification (cleansing or being made holy) in the time when we are saved by God’s grace when we first accepted Jesus as our Savior, and there is a secondary sanctification in living holy by the power of the Spirit working in us after we are saved by God’s grace.

 

[Taken]

How wonderfully elitist of you to comment about my location as a qualification.

Nothing to do with elitist! How silly. You openly revealed that knowledge.

You must be from some really special place...

I like it!

I said, “You feel the Law never applied to you and you see nothing good in it.”

I know what I said....and NOT ONE WORD SAID ....

“nothing good in it”

You said:
Christ DID NOT redeem “US” Gentiles from the curse of the law.
The Curse of the Mosaic Law, never applied to Gentiles.

Christ DID redeem “ISRAEL” from the curse of “THEIR” law...
AND God DID through Christ “Offer” FORGIVENESS...
AND.....SALVATION NOW, once and forever....

The Bible says:
Deuteronomy 31:12
The strangers that lived among Israel were told to obey the Law.

So? I never lived IN THEIR LAND. That is nothing new. Same as the rules on my land, you don’t come on my land and dictate YOUR rules, you follow my rules, or leave.

Those who were NOT Israel were held to the same behavior. The behavior of the people groups outside of the camp of Israel was to honor pagan gods. YHVH wanted none of that among his people. The people that live among YHVH's people should not do things that respect other gods.

So? Nothing new, nothing that applies to me.
You want to apply Israel’s Law to you....who cares?
You want to apply EVERY word in Scripture to you....that’s on you.
Every word in Scripture does not Apply to me.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Words like “positional” are tool words for heresy.

Show me where the scripture speaks of different types of sanctification.

I read the Bible frequently and this sounds to me like unbiblical nonsense.

“And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.” (John 10:5)

So your not in Christ? (positional sanctification)

Seems like you just want to argue.

Believe whatever you want my friend. I just pray you come to your senses about your sin soon.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Beginning your opening statement with a preconceived (psychology tactic) is a fail.

I am not into psychology and think it is unbiblical. So I would really have no idea of how to employ this tactic as you claim I have.
God talks to my heart about people, and when to reply and when not to reply sometimes.
I am also extremely busy and I am not looking to debate every single person that comes along here (Otherwise I would have no life to do other things that are necessary to live and serve the Lord).

1 John 1:
[9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse from all unrighteousness.

1 John 2:
[1] My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1 John 1:9.........
APPLIES to one who is a: BELIEVER, Jesus IS the Christ, Son of God,
And believes he has Sinned or is continuing to Sin. IF he continues BELIEVING, continues to sin, he CONTINUES to HAVE an Advocate.

1 John 2:
APPLIES to Little Children “indicating” newer to BELIEVING, direction that to NOT commit Sin, is an upfront goal, but as you try and stumble along the way, you have an advocate Jesus the Christ....that you ARE already BELIEVING “IN”, IF he continues “BELIEVING IN”, and sins, he continues having an Advocate.

When a person IS BELIEVING, like a little child first learning something new, they stumble. We have example of Jesus’ own chosen disciples, grown men, first learning, stumbling, (even the most egregious stumble, of DENYING Jesus before other men) yet in his heart continuing to BELIEVE.

Your words are simply confusing and unclear here. Before you were saying 1 John 1:9 was dealing with a believer first getting saved. I am proposing to you that such is not the case. Do we have confirmation of confessing sin to God after a person has previously known the Lord?

King David confessed of his sins to God in Psalms 51. But if we are to believe your words, this would be absolutely unnecessary. But the real proof is the parable of the Prodigal Son in Luke 15. Do you want to deal with what that parable actually says vs. your own thinking on it?

Not in question.
What is in question is ...... WHO is we, us, me, my.... and WHAT precisely does and does not APPLY to them.

Christianity is a Religion. The ASSUMPTION is every man professing to be a Christian ARE the exact same; We/ Us......they aren’t.

Every person is an Individual. Every Individual being lead, choosing to step on the path through the narrow gate....while all are on the same path, they are on their own Individual Journey, to their end.

Please take no offense, but your words here sounds like ramblings that make no sense. Hence, another reason for my not replying to everything you write. You also use the cap locks key way too much (Which turns a lot of people off) (Note: I have seen this happen a tons of times). So if you have ever noticed that that not many people are replying to you, these two things most likely would be the reason.

Also, it would not hurt to also change your avatar. The black eyes smiley face looks dark and evil and could also turn people off in replying to you.

* NOW BEYOND BELIEVING (and hoping I endure to my end of physical life);
* The Lord IS “WITH” me AND “IN” me, Called CONVERTED IN Christ.
* I am free from Sin, can not Sin. Can not Fall away, am born of God, am begotten of God, am a son of God, am sanctified, am not subject to Wrath, am justified to be redeemed by the Lord, to meet Him in the air, and forever be WITH Him, etc.

Uh huh. Trying reading Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, 1 John 2:3-4, 1 John 3:15, Titus 1:16, 1 Timothy 6:10, and Romans 11:22.

 

[Taken]

Many that follow the doctrine of sola fide teach faith is not a work.

The Bible teaches faith is a work, a work of God, John 6:28-29.
Therefore faith only and no works salvation is proven false.

It is impossible to be saved without works.

The Bible teaches Faith is A GIFT from God.
YOU quoted.......”a work OF God”....
Why are you implying “a work OF God” Is a mans works?
Sure enough, A man CAN NOT be saved, “WITHOUT “a work OF God”.
God absolutely DOES the WORKS that Saves a man....
...WORKS OF GOD...
Forgives, circumcises the heart, restores the soul, quickens the spirit, plants Gods Seed, Covers the man with His light, washes the man,
Sanctifies the man, Justifies the man.....
..WHY elevate man to supposedly doing Works that are Gods Works?

 

[Michiah-Imla]

1290

I see two kinds of Sanctification

This is first issue @Bible Highlighter

YOU are seeing this in scripture. The scriptures aren’t showing this.

1 Corinthians 6:11
“And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified,
but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.”

This sounds like a past one time event or experience in being saved by God’s grace.

Okay, I agree with this so far.

Then there is 1 Thessalonians 4:3 that says,
“For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:”

This sounds like a holy action tied in with our sanctification.

This is the same sanctification. Abstaining from fornication is showing your sanctification is genuine: it confirms it. I don’t see where this is creating different sanctifications.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

1290


This is first issue @Bible Highlighter

YOU are seeing this in scripture. The scriptures aren’t showing this.



Okay, I agree with this so far.





This is the same sanctification. Abstaining from fornication is showing your sanctification is genuine: it confirms it. I don’t see where this is creating different sanctifications.

It says in 1 Thessalonians 4:3 that our sanctification is to abstain from fornication. So it’s not a past event. It’s still yet a future challenge for the believer. Why else would Paul say in 2 Corinthians 7:1 to cleanse ourselves from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit PERFECTING holiness in the fear of God? Yet, we read of a sanctification that sounds like a past even in 1 Corinthians 6:11 involving our being saved by God’s grace and receiving the Spirit and the regeneration. Context is the key difference here.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Why else would Paul say in 2 Corinthians 7:1 to cleanse ourselves from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit PERFECTING holiness in the fear of God.

Because, dear friend, doing these things maintain the sanctification you obtained when you were born again.

“That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;” (1 Thessalonians 4:4)

 

[praise_yeshua]

The Bible teaches Faith is A GIFT from God.
YOU quoted.......”a work OF God”....
Why are you implying “a work OF God” Is a mans works?
Sure enough, A man CAN NOT be saved, “WITHOUT “a work OF God”.
God absolutely DOES the WORKS that Saves a man....
...WORKS OF GOD...
Forgives, circumcises the heart, restores the soul, quickens the spirit, plants Gods Seed, Covers the man with His light, washes the man,
Sanctifies the man, Justifies the man.....
..WHY elevate man to supposedly doing Works that are Gods Works?

There are different ranks and types of faith. All things are gifts from God. There is nothing that exists didn't come from God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

1290


This is first issue @Bible Highlighter

YOU are seeing this in scripture. The scriptures aren’t showing this.



Okay, I agree with this so far.





This is the same sanctification. Abstaining from fornication is showing your sanctification is genuine: it confirms it. I don’t see where this is creating different sanctifications.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 talks about the Sanctification of the Holy Spirit to live a holy life AND a belief of the truth.
The context supports this viewpoint for 2 Thessalonians 2:13 because 2 Thessalonians 2:12 shows you the polar opposite contrast of 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and 2 Thessalonians 2:15-16 talks about both faith AND works.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 says that God has chosen us to salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth (Which is a CALL of the gospel - 2 Thessalonians 2:14).

Romans 8:13 also describes living holy by the Spirit of God in putting away sin, vs. not doing so.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

So your not in Christ? (positional sanctification)

I’m in Christ (a new creature).

“Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” (2 Corinthians 5:17)

If I am become new, why do I need more sanctification?

Once I became sanctified in Christ the old man passed away.

When you buy a brand new car, does it need any repairs?