Tribulation Saints? A Contradiction

[Taken]

Did you know brethren, that the false Pre-tribulational Rapture theory wrongly teaches that Jews left-behind that miss the rapture, but come to believe on Jesus, are "tribulation saints"? Of course that phrase is nowhere written in God's Word; the Pre-trib Rapture school just made that phrase up.

They also falsely apply... that "tribulation saints" idea to Christ's very elect that Jesus was pointing to in His Olivet discourse He gave while upon the Mount of Olives! Why?

The reason the Pre-trib Rapture doctors came up with that idea, is because of how God's Word shows Christ's saints GO THROUGH THE GREAT TRIBULATION!

Who doesn't see a problem with that theory? I do. Why?


* Teaching is THOSE “IN” Christ, are “caught up”....commonly called raptured.
* IN Christ IS indicative of Believing BOTH IN God and IN Jesus IS the Christ, AND Having given their Heartful Confession of THEIR BELIEF, and Having Become forgiven, Saved, Quickened, By, through, of, the Power of God, who IS Christ....and thereafter IS IN such man.
* Teaching is THOSE “NOT in Christ” remain on earth and suffer the Wrath of the Lamb...for having NOT Believed IN Jesus being the Christ, the Lamb of God.
* Teaching is THOSE DURING the Tribulation, Believing IN God, but NOT Believing IN Jesus the Christ, are NOT IN Christ, YET BECOME Believers IN Jesus IS the Christ, DURING THE TRIBULAtiON. They BODILY DIE, (at the hands of men killing them, at the destruction of the earth killing them) AFTER believing, IN GOD, IN Jesus is the Christ, AND at their bodily death ARE saved, having BECOME SAINTS...”BELIEVERS” BOTH in God, in Jesus is the Christ.
....most likely, some have elected to use the phrase “tribulation saint”, as their teaching method, expressly, identifying WHEN they came into belief, that Jesus is the Christ....
....same as RAPTURED is a one word expression, expressly identifying a man WHO is not Subject to Wrath, DURING the Tribulation, thus lifted up, Before the Tribulation / Wrath of God comes down from Heaven upon the whole earth and it’s occupants (save only the 144,000).

Because since when are those called "saints" in God's Word NOT members of Christ's Church?

* Alive Believers in Gods Word are called “saints”.
* Men who continued Believing in Gods Word to the day of their bodily death are called “saints”....AND received their Salvation at the time of their bodily death.
* Members of Christ’s Church, of course are believers, WITH AN ADDITIONAL, SPECIFIC difference....that THEY EXPRESSLY Freely chose to BECOME “crucified with Christ”, specifically electing to spiritually GIVE their body unto DEATH, (without suffering physical death at the hand of an other, or earthly destruction.)

You stand AGAINST, that which you neither KNOW or UNDERSTAND.
Should you have WONDERING...
Study the Scriptures...of Jesus expressly identifying the REQUIREMENT to receive SALVATION...NOW, while alive in your flesh...and AFTER physical death....

IF you have received your SALVATION NOW...FOR belief in God AND Jesus IS the CHRIST, and According to Gods ORDER and WAY, Heartfully Confessed those beliefs TO the Lord God.....
PONDER....WHY you would be SUBJECT TO and SUFFER, the Lambs WRATH, that begins with the Opening of the Seals, and realized by men upon the Earth, that IS what IS occurring?
Rev 6:
[16] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
[17] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Do you believe a man IN Christ, shall be suffering ON Earth, the WRATH of the LAMB, that expressly occurs during the opening of the SEALS?....after having heartfully Confessed to the Lord God, their Belief, Jesus is the Christ?

IF SO, WHY?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

The erroneous idea that the deceived and wicked will convert to Jesus once they 'see' Christ's Church raptured is NOT written, but is an assumption ONLY, especially if one believes in the FALSE pre-trib rapture theory that claims Christ's Church will be raptured PRIOR to the great tribulation! Pre-tribbers just keep piling their deceptions on the dung heap.

Since "eschatology" is just another way of saying "Rank Speculation", and Because I'll be gone before any of it happens anyway, I couldn't care less. Regardless, I've always been a knee-jerk "Pre tribber". And if the Holy Spirit leaves with the church, then ain't ANYBODY getting Born Again when we're gone. The WIcked will just get "more Human" without the presence of the Holy SPirit to convict them of SIN - nobody ever got Born Again without being DRAWN to Christ by the Spirit anyway.

BUT HEY!!! I've still got my copy of "88 reasons the rapture will occur in 1988". It Proves BIBLICALLY beyond any shadow of a doubt that we'll be RAPTURED OUTTA HERE during the "Feast of trumpets" in 1988!! I can hardly wait!!!

 

[Davy]

Since "eschatology" is just another way of saying "Rank Speculation", and Because I'll be gone before any of it happens anyway, I couldn't care less....

Those who cannot be counseled cannot be helped. (Benjamin Franklin)

There is NO PRE-TRIB RAPTURE doctrine written anywhere... in God's Word.

What you have believed on is MEN, and not The Word of God.

Jesus revealed His coming to gather His saints is AFTER... the tribulation He warned of (Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27). Those Scriptures Apostle Paul agreed with in 1 Thessalonians 4.

 

[ewq1938]

Why would that tell me He would remain in heaven to open the 7th seal.

Because if you are right, Christ would have left heaven to go to the clouds of the Earth but he doesn't. He stays right there in heaven and opens the next seal.

The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 and the coming of Jesus in Rev 6 are the same event.

Yes but both are just descriptions of the second coming, not the actual event of the second coming happening. Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 will happen when the 7th trump sounds.

Saying the second coming happens when the 6th seal is opened is the exact same error if someone claimed the second coming happened when Christ described it in Matthew 24. We are TOLD ABOUT the second coming in the 6th seal but it doesn't yet happen until later. Get it yet?

The second coming is described many times in the bible but that doesn't mean every description is the event happening right then and there.

 

[Timtofly]

Saying the second coming happens when the 6th seal is opened is the exact same error if someone claimed the second coming happened when Christ described it in Matthew 24. We are TOLD ABOUT the second coming in the 6th seal but it doesn't yet happen until later. Get it yet?

The second coming is described many times in the bible but that doesn't mean every description is the event happening right then and there.

Interesting that Jesus and the angels will be on earth gathering the final harvest, but yet that to you, is not the Second Coming.

The 144k are on earth and sealed after the 6th Seal. They are with Jesus on earth, wherever He goes. Are you saying they are sealed, but not sealed until the 7th Trumpet? Why did John not write about the 144k until the 2 witness in Revelation 11, if these are not sealed until after the 2 witnesses are around?

 

[ewq1938]

Interesting that Jesus and the angels will be on earth gathering the final harvest, but yet that to you, is not the Second Coming.

The 144k are on earth and sealed after the 6th Seal. They are with Jesus on earth, wherever He goes. Are you saying they are sealed, but not sealed until the 7th Trumpet? Why did John not write about the 144k until the 2 witness in Revelation 11, if these are not sealed until after the 2 witnesses are around?

You always misrepresent people as you are here about me and what I believe. It's a waste of my time to even correct your nonsense so it's well past time for you to be on the ignore list.

 

[Taken]

Listen, Hear, Gods Word of TRUTH.

* Tribulations have occurred on Earth since Ancient days.
(Weather disturbances, Wars, Conflict between men, Instigation of powerful spiritual evil forces, Wicked men aligned with evil forces.)

* GREAT TRIBULATION, is Effected BY Gods ANGER, and Gods WRATH upon the Earth and the Inhabitants upon the Face of the Earth.

GREAT Tribulation, Occurred ONCE, Shall Occur ONE MORE TIME.

* Listen, Hear, Read, Learn...GREAT TRIBULATION, has a BEGINNING, a time span of INCREASE, and an ENDING.

Matt 24:
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Rev.2
[22] Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Rev.7
[14] And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

WHAT....causes Gods Anger? Disbelief IN Him. Distrust IN His Word.
WHAT....IS Wrath? Extreme Anger, and Reaction to Extreme Anger.

* First Great Tribulation...Lasted approx 1.5 year.
* Last Great Tribulation....Shall last approx 7 years.

 

[Taken]

* First Great Tribulation...Expressly 8 persons (IN Belief of God and His Word) were Bodily SAVED FROM the Destruction UPON THE FACE OF THE EARTH.
* Such 8 persons were LIFTED UP OFF the FACE OF THE EARTH,
* Such 8 person were IN the clouds, approx 22.5 Feet ABOVE the mountain tops.

* Second and Last Great Tribulation “regarding” the Earth and Inhabitants on the Face ON the Face of the Earth; SHALL BE SIMILAR, to the First Great Tribulation.

* Bodily Saved, soul Saved, SHALL BE LIFTED UP OFF the FACE of the EARTH, (expressly to and in the Clouds), BEFORE God BEGINS SENDING DOWN FROM HEAVEN HIS WRATH UPON the FACE of the EARTH, effecting the Earth and the inhabitants UPON the Face of the Earth.

* First Great Tribulation - 7 days 8 Persons (bodily Saved) were shut IN the Ark sitting on Earth (dry land)...BEFORE the BEGINNING of the Earth commencing to BE DESTROYED by WATER.

* Last Great Tribulation - 7 years Many Persons (bodily Saved) WILL BE risen up OFF Earth (dry land)...BEFORE the BEGINNING of the EARTH commencing to BE DESTROYED by QUAKES and FIRE.

 

[Taken]

Gods WORD, Gods WORKS, are Nothing NEW.
What WAS SHALL BE AGAIN.

Ecc 1:
[9] The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

IN BRIEF;
The THING, done before, shall be done again;
is a nutshell (or scripturally) a SEED pattern.
Gods Earth...made good...corrupted...made good again.
Gods Man....made good....corrupted...made good again.
Gods Truth...given...corrupted...Accepted & Rejected.
FREEWILL...of mankind...choosing uncorrupt...corrupt.
Gods Division...making corrupt good...leaving corrupt.
Gods Separation...Keeping good...Destroying corrupt.

* God has ALREADY Chosen TO Create AND Love ALL of His Creations.
* Done Deal.
* ALL of Gods MAN-KIND Creatures, CREATED WITH their bodily Living BLOOD LIFE, and MADE WITH Gods Living soul BREATH of LIFE....

HAVE FREEWILL..:
To CHOOSE; to BE WITH God and HOPE to KEEP THEMSELVES by “THEIR OWN POWER” WITH God.
To CHOOSE; to BE WITHOUT God.
To CHOOSE; to BE WITH and IN God, and KEPT WITH and IN God, BY “GODS POWER.”

“IF”...your FREEWILL Choice IS to REJECT God...
You shall receive what you have chosen. Separation From God.

“IF”...your FREEWILL Choice IS to be WITH God...
You shall receive what you have chosen....”IF”
to the end of your physical life, YOU ENDURED by “your own power to remain WITH God”....YOU SHALL BE SAVED AFTER YOUR BODILY PHYSICAL DEATH.

“IF”...your FREEWILL Choice IS to be “WITH and IN” God...NOW
You shall receive NOW what you have chosen ...”IF”
You FOLLOW Gods command according to His ORDER and WAY, TO:
Receive FORGIVENESS...and His MAKING of your body, soul, spirit,
WHOLLY acceptable TO HIM, Kept WITH and IN Him, BY His POWER.

A man WHOSE FREEWILL choice, IS submitting himself wholly, unto to the Lord God Almighty, IS the same WHO SHALL (like Noah and 7 other persons) BE LIFTED UP off the face of the Earth, (and should they be physically bodily dead and buried), shall also be LIFTED UP from out of the Earth....TO THE CLOUDS, BEFORE Gods Last Great Tribulation BEGINS.
They HAVE already been MADE whole, uncorrupted, BY the Power of God.
They HAVE already been MADE whole, uncorrupted, WITH and IN God.
They HAVE already been MADE whole, uncorrupted, and NOT APPOINTED to SUFFER.........Gods Anger....Gods Wrath.

 

[Taken]

A man who has Freely of ‘his’ own FREEWILL Chosen to be;
WITH and IN God, IS NOT appointed to be upon the earth or to suffer GODS WRATH, upon the earth.

Like Noah and 7 other persons, that ^ man SHALL be Body and soul RISEN UP OFF the Earth, TO the Clouds, WHILE Gods WRATH Destroys the Earths Corruption.

Like in Noah’s DAY, God Kills inhabitants upon the Earth, WITH the Earth.

Gen 6:
[13] And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Such a man LIFTED UP off the EARTH, BEFORE destruction upon the Earth Begins.......is the EXPRESS reference of the term;
RAPTURE, being APPLICABLE Expressly to ONLY men, WITH and IN God, BEFORE the Great Tribulation BEGINS.

Believing men WITH God (but not IN God) who maintain their belief, during the Tribulation shall be killed, THEN saved.

Unbelieving men WITHOUT God, WITHOUT IN God, during the suffering OF the Tribulation, WILL ALL HEAR, the TRUE WORD of God, and exercise their own FREEWILL, to Believe or Not.

IF they freely choose TO Believe....they will be killed....and after their bodily death....then SAVED.

IF they freely choose TO NOT Believe....they will be killed...and free their bodily death...NOT SAVED.

Men TRYING to apply the event of “catching up”....in a word, referenced as RAPTURE, to men DURING the Great Tribulation is FALSE.

Catching up, (RAPTURE), ONLY APPLIES to men God IS WITH and IN, BEFORE the Great Tribulation Begins.
THEY, have ALREADY freely Given their Body unto DEATH...to and for the Lord God Almighty
* WHICH...is the EXPRESS WAY...A MAN “Confirms” His LOVE for God.

And THAT IS THE BIG PICTURE...
God CHOSE First, to LOVE us.
God DESIRES every man to Freely Choose, to LOVE HIM.
A man WHO freely GIVES His LIFE unto Death FOR GOD...
IS the man WHO, EXPRESSLY, reveals TO GOD, that mans TRUE LOVE OF God.

 

[Taken]

WILL MEN, during the Great Tribulation, freely choose TO GIVE THEIR LIFE unto God, FOR their Great Love of God?

Yes.

Will they be SAVED after their bodily Death?
Yes.

WHY are there manKIND of things, that BELIEVE, are WITH God, but have not, do not, choose to BE IN GOD, and WILL be ON Earth, WHEN the Great Tribulation Begins?

Scripture tells us.
ALL men MUST HEAR Gods TRUTH, Before they can freely CHOOSE to Believe Gods TRUTH.

True, men WHO DO BELIEVE, have historically and presently Been:
Inviting others to hear;
Speaking openly and freely for others to hear;
Traveling about the world seeking men and speaking Gods Word.
Publishing of Gods Word in ink on paper and distributing world wide.
* And coupled with evil forces and wicked men with endless conniving plots TO PREVENT men from hearing, Prohibiting men from hearing, Destroying ink on paper Distribution of Gods Written word, Rewriting Corrupt copies of Gods Written word and Distributing, Preaching corrupt versions of Gods Word.

AND...?
God Himself SHALL SEND HIS WORD to the WHOLE world, for EVERY EAR to HEAR, During the Great Tribulation, THAT ALL can Believe or Reject as they Freely Choose, without excuse, “that they didn’t hear”.

Gods Order and Way...
* First to the Jews in Jerusalem, via Gods Two Witnesses.
* Second to the Tribes of Israel, on Mt Zion, via 144,000 Tribesmen and A Lamb.
* Thirdly to the While world, entire globe, via A holy servant Angel of God.

ALL who Freely Choose to Believe, SHALL BECOME SAVED, RAISED UP...
AFTER Gods Works are accomplished and DONE ON earth.

 

[The Light]

You always misrepresent people as you are here about me and what I believe. It's a waste of my time to even correct your nonsense so it's well past time for you to be on the ignore list.

I have never understood why anyone would put someone on ignore. How can you learn if you do not listen to those that challenge what you believe?

You were asked a legitimate question. It seems that you have no answer. Wouldn't it be better to find out where you are wrong and find the truth instead of believing and posting things that are not correct? It would be better to seek the truth than ignore challenges to your belief.

 

[The Light]

Listen, Hear, Gods Word of TRUTH.

* Tribulations have occurred on Earth since Ancient days.
(Weather disturbances, Wars, Conflict between men, Instigation of powerful spiritual evil forces, Wicked men aligned with evil forces.)

* GREAT TRIBULATION, is Effected BY Gods ANGER, and Gods WRATH upon the Earth and the Inhabitants upon the Face of the Earth.

GREAT Tribulation, Occurred ONCE, Shall Occur ONE MORE TIME.

* Listen, Hear, Read, Learn...GREAT TRIBULATION, has a BEGINNING, a time span of INCREASE, and an ENDING.

Matt 24:
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Rev.2
[22] Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Rev.7
[14] And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

WHAT....causes Gods Anger? Disbelief IN Him. Distrust IN His Word.
WHAT....IS Wrath? Extreme Anger, and Reaction to Extreme Anger.

* First Great Tribulation...Lasted approx 1.5 year.
* Last Great Tribulation....Shall last approx 7 years.

There is a difference between the great tribulation and Gods wrath. The tribulation is OVER before the wrath of God begins. This is a provable fact.

 

[Taken]

There is a difference between the great tribulation and Gods wrath. The tribulation is OVER before the wrath of God begins. This is a provable fact.

Great Tribulation is reference to Tribulation sent down from Heaven.
Wrath is the result of Gods Anger per Corruption.
Already acknowledged, such as was in Adam’s Day...
So AGAIN shall God send down Tribulation UPON the Earth.

Adam was secure IN the Ark, 7 days BEFORE Tribulation BEGAN.
The First Tribulation BEGAN, INCREASED in severity, then ENDED.

Men IN Christ, are secure IN Christ, BEFORE the 7 years of the Last Tribulation BEGINS.
The Last Tribulation SHALL BEGIN, INCREASE in severity, then END.

The LAST portion of the Last Tribulation obviously IS greater...thus the term...INCREASE in severity. Increase in severity, does not negate the First and Second portion of the Last Tribulation is as well severe.

The world for eons has experienced severe hints, signs, tasting, sneak peek, whatever you want to call it....IN diverse (here and there) places....of Great Earth Quakes, of Great Volcano Explosions, Enormous Winds, Hurricanes, Tornados, Cyclones, Famines, Swarms of biting insects and crop destroyers....AND decade after decade, THOSE signs have INCREASED in severity.

God always foretells, and always gives mankind opportunity to experience a TASTE BEFORE utter destruction or saving...
Per an individual mans FREEWILL to MAKE his choices to be WITH or WITHOUT God.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[TLHKAJ]

I have the truth on my side brother, that is why it can't be defeated in debate. It actually saddens me to se a brother so lost in a defeated argument. You put so much time and effort into arguing a lost argument. Its the pride of life brother. God loves the humble who say, teach me Lord, not the proud whom He can never teach.

I'm sorry, but you sound very prideful in your "humility." :/

 

[Taken]

I have never understood why anyone would put someone on ignore. How can you learn if you do not listen to those that challenge what you believe?

Observe.
Some men elect to “SPEAK FOR OTHERS WHAT THEY DO NOT SAY”, then proceed to Polk, Jab, Accuse, in desperation of TRYING TO MAKE the OTHER man, accountable, defending, what THEY did NOT say!

Some men ARE only here to ACCUSE, LAMBAST, with no Scriptural validation, for their disagreement.

Such things repeated over and over, ARE old, juvenile, boring, deflective, to ad nauseam tactics....and thus placed on IGNORE...
Leaving the ignorant to be ignorant, remedying their constant deflection from the topic of thread.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Go argue somewhere else WITH YOUR FOLLOWING DOCTRINES OF MEN and not Christ's Word. This THREAD is about the topic of Pre-trib's False tribulation saints idea, NOT the actual time of Christ's coming and gathering of His Church.

You come with the term “tribulation saints”....but have NOT quoted one person on this forum using such term....... “who cares what terms you have heard elsewhere”?

You come spouting “pre-tribulation” rising up of those in Christ is FALSE...
Yet have ZERO Scriptural support, that a man IN Christ...body, soul, spirit...
IS appointed to suffer Gods Wrath He sends down from Heaven UPON the Earth, UPON it’s inhabitants, FOR REJECTING Him and His Word...

DO TELL....WHY would God Be ANGRY WITH and Punish men WHO HAVE ALREADY GIVEN unto Death, THEIR LIFE TO GOD?

DO TELL...WHY He Has Promised PEACE WITHIN a man WHOM God is WITHIN...but then LIE, be angry at them, and send His WRATH upon them.?

Shout out your answer, as loud as you Shout out your accusations AGAINST men IN Christ who Already KNOW they shall not suffer Wrath.

 

[The Light]

Interesting that Jesus and the angels will be on earth gathering the final harvest, but yet that to you, is not the Second Coming.

You are correct that the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is the second coming where all eyes will see the coming of the Lord. However, at this coming Jesus remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect just before the wrath of God. This occurs IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION. THEN THE WRATH OF GOD BEGINS.

Matthew 24
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here is another view of this coming in Rev 14. Note that Jesus does not come to the earth but remains in the clouds.

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

The 144k are on earth and sealed after the 6th Seal.

Actually, logic should tell you that the 144,000 are sealed BEFORE the sixth seal. John has another vision after the writing down the 1st 6 seals. He sees the 144,000 being sealed. THEN we see the great multitude in heaven and some of them COME OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION.

Rev 7
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The great tribulation happens BEFORE the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal
Rev 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

They are with Jesus on earth, wherever He goes.

Actually the 144,000 are on earth with Jesus on Mount Sion.

Rev 14
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

The 144,000 are REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH and are before the throne

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

The 144,000 are firstfruits. This means they are redeemed from the earth and are before the throne BEFORE THE HARVEST.

Rev 14
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

We also get another view of the Great Tribulation that is occurring at the 5th seal in Rev 14.
Rev 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Then of course we have the coming of Jesus in Rev 14 where he remains in the clouds and sends his angels JUST PRIOR TO THE WRATH OF GOD.
Rev 14
9 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

This is the exact same event that you see at the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. Jesus comes for the harvest and the wrath begins.

Rev 6
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Let's just use some common sense and logic. When Jesus comes at the 6th seal, He sends his angels for the harvest. When you see the great multitude in Rev 7 that is the harvest that occurred in Rev 6. So if the harvest occurred in Rev 6 wouldn't it be logical that the 144,000 were sealed BEFORE the 6th seal? Also the 144,000 are firstfruits of the harvest. We saw them redeemed from the earth in Rev 14. The wrath of God is OVER at the 7th trumpet when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. So the events that you are looking at in Rev 14 occur IN THE SEALS. In Rev 14, we see the first fruits, we see the great tribulation and we see the coming of Jesus and the wrath beginning. The exact events that take place in the seals.

Are you saying they are sealed, but not sealed until the 7th Trumpet? Why did John not write about the 144k until the 2 witness in Revelation 11, if these are not sealed until after the 2 witnesses are around?

Nice.

 

[Taken]

None of this is true. Jesus doesn’t go to earth when he opens the 6th seal. No, he stays right there in heaven and opens the last seal. Jesus remains in heaven until the last trump, then he comes to the Earth.

Correct concept.

It gets convoluted, when men speak by what they KNOW, rather than speak with Specific Scriptural terms.

We know, ONE man has multiple names and titles.
We know, it is Proper and “out of context” Improper to call ONE man by certain names or titles.

An individual man can be a daddy, husband, sweetheart, son, brother, employer, employee, business owner, mayor, neighbor, friend, foe, student, doctor, etc. etc.

Any other man CAN KNOW those things....but IN CONTEXT, doesn’t mean it is PROPER for any man to CALL that man those things.

We can KNOW, Jesus IS Son of man, Jesus IS Son of God, Jesus IS Lord, Jesus IS the Christ, Jesus IS the Lamb of God, Jesus IS ....... on and on.....YET, according to “CONTEXT” per Scripture....to be PROPERLY “in context”...USING the LIMIT of the Proper name and title...KEEPS the specific Scripture IN proper context.

When speaking of Jesus as in Mary’s Womb, He is the Son of man.
When speaking of Jesus as as born of Mary’s, He is the Son of man.
When speaking of Who was SENT to Earth, He is the Son of man....
....SENT without Power
When speaking of Who was on Earth, we LEARNED:
He IS the Word of God, He IS the Holy One, He IS the Lord, He IS the Teacher, He IS the Son of God, He IS the Truth of God, He IS the Way of God, He IS the Life of God, He IS the Light of God, He IS the Christ, He IS the Wisdom of God, He IS the Power of God, He IS the Quickening Spirit, He IS the Everlasting Beginning and Ending, He IS God.

Men SAW the Son of man, and men SAW the REFLECTIONS of God...
His wisdom, power, life, goodness, etc.
Yet STILL men ONLY VISIBLY SAW the Son of man...

The SAME, Son of man that men saw, TWO MEN Witnessed, Gods LIGHT, POWER, RISE UP that body of the Son of man, disappearing in the clouds, returning to Heaven from whence He came.

For a Second TIME, the Son of man SHALL BE SENT to EARTH...at that time........The Son of man IS SENT......”WITH POWER” .
(Is HIS Reputation, known IN Heaven, Established known ON Earth).
And that POWER is called Christ’. The POWER is the Supreme POWER of God.

Point being...knowing is one thing, using the EXACT name / title per. Scripture keeps IN Proper Context, WHO precisely is doing WHAT at any particular time.

Jesus doesn’t go to earth when he opens the 6th seal.

Jesus, the Son of man is sitting in Heaven.
The Lamb of God opens the Seals, one by one, giving Authority and Power to Satan/Devils/his army of wicked men.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[The Light]

Great Tribulation is reference to Tribulation sent down from Heaven.
Wrath is the result of Gods Anger per Corruption.

The Great Tribulation is the dragon going after and attempting to kill the believers. The wrath of God and tribulation cannot be the same time as believers are not appointed to wrath.

1 Thes 5
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Most teachers of the pre tribulation rapture, do not understand that the tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins. They do not understand that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is not the coming of Jesus at the 7th trumpet. It is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, BEFORE WRATH.

Adam was secure IN the Ark, 7 days BEFORE Tribulation BEGAN.
The First Tribulation BEGAN, INCREASED in severity, then ENDED.

Men IN Christ, are secure IN Christ, BEFORE the 7 years of the Last Tribulation BEGINS.
The Last Tribulation SHALL BEGIN, INCREASE in severity, then END.

NOAH was in the ark 7 days BEFORE THE FLOOD, even as the Church will be in heaven 7 years BEFORE THE WRATH OF GOD.

Again. The Great Tribulation is OVER BEFORE THE WRATH of God Begins.

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