Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Taken]

. And have you never read John 15?

Yes.

John 15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

WHO is me? You already gave the answer....JESUS.
And I agree.

Are the CONVERTED....Converted “IN” Jesus?
................................Or Converted “IN” Christ?
Are the CONVERTED....Waiting to BECOME SAVED after bodily death?
.................................Or Converted/Saved BEFORE bodily death?

Jesus is revealing, men “IN” JESUS, WHO, remain “IN” Jesus, shall BECOME Saved at their bodily death. Scripture repeatedly WARNS, for men “IN” Jesus must ENDURE, REMAIN, KEEP, ‘IN” Jesus, “IF” they want to BECOME SAVED, When they physically die.
* The thief, hanging next to Jesus, realized WHILE he was being crucified, that he Believed IN Jesus, and unto his Death he Believe IN Jesus, and WHEN his body physically died....HE WAS then SAVED. (That occurs repeatedly with men on their death bed.).
* The there are thousands of men WHO Believe “IN” Jesus, WHO NEVER CONVERT “IN” Christ. Any man WHO continues, remain, endures BELIEVING “IN” Jesus, SHALL be saved when they physically bodily die.
* THEY DO NOT PARTICIPATE “IN /as Occupants of” Christs 1,000 yr Earthly Kingdom. Their soul and spirit rise up to Heaven. Their BODY is raised AFTER the 1,000 yr reign, ie the FIRST MASS Resurrection.
** God will BRING “with HIM”, all those who “SLEEP” (are bodily dead, having Believed in JESUS.) ie The FIRST MASS Resurrection.

1 Thes 4:
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus (the Son of God) will God bring with him.

1 Thes 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive (in Christ) and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rev 20:
[5] But the rest of the dead (those IN JESUS) lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

SEE, who is who?
IN Jesus, receive Salvation AFTER Bodily Death, and God WILL Bring them. After the 1,000 year reign.
IN Christ, have received-ED Salvation BEFORE Bodily Death, and the Lord WILL call them up to Him, VIA His Servants Signal, and SHALL be WITH Christ in His earthly Kingdom, for His 1,000 year earthly reign.

Would you agree that every branch (person) in the true vine Jesus is saved?

No. Shall be SAVED when they bodily die....”IF” they remain IN Jesus.

I don't see how a branch could be in Him but not be saved. Notice that He says the Father "cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit".

Yes. I noticed. And I notice who Scripture specifically is SPEAKING of.

Does that verse alone not destroy OSAS?

No. OSAS, is precisely about Becoming MADE, “IN” CHRIST!

I believe it does. And then Jesus tells His disciples to remain in Him as He remains in them. If it was a certainty that they would remain in Him would He need to tell them to remain in Him? Of course not. That would be ridiculous.

You are making presumptions based on the difference of what IS SAID, and what YOU KNOW.
Not ALL KNOW, Jesus IS the Christ.
Not ALL BELIEVE, Jesus IS the Christ.
Believing, Knowing, “HEARTFULLY” CONFESSING, Jesus IS THE CHRIST...
...IS precisely HOW a man BECOMES MADE CONVERTED, BY Gods Works, IN that man right then, ONCE and FOREVER, and that man CALLED....”IN” Christ. Ie...OSAS.
* So what about the man WHO believes IN Jesus, but NEVER, makes a “heartful Confession” that JESUS IS THE CHSIRT?
He is NOT SAVED, “right then”. IF he continues, remains, endures Believing IN Jesus to the day he physically Dies......
HE SHALL BE SAVED THEN! AFTER His physical Death.

So WHY DOES a man “IN” Christ become saved, BEFORE physical death?
BECAUSE, God Himself, MADE A New COVENANT, that ANY MAN, Choosing of his own Freewill for their BODY TO BE CRUCIFIED WITH JESUS” BODY....that man HAS FULFILLED the “requirement” OF ONE BODILY DEATH that “IS REQUIRED” BEFORE a man CAN BE....BORN AGAIN (ie QUICKENED) of Gods SEED.

Heb 9:
[27] And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Men Believing IN Jesus, shall become SAVED for remaining in BELIEF.
Men WHO are Believing IN Jesus, are simply Believing. They are not offering their Body’s to be crucified with Christ.

Men IN Christ, gave their bodys, unto DEATH, crucified with Jesus.

1 Cor 15:
[35] But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
[36] Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

John 15:
[13] Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

A man WILLINGLY, FREELY Laying down his Life, crucified with Jesus...
Reveals to God, that mans GREAT LOVE for Christ Jesus.

My Position remains the same. OSAS

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[praise_yeshua]

But I would say those actually are identified being allegorical of various things. They represent God's faithfulness to whom He choses, and His antagonism to whom He is at war, Malachi tells us this. And that they show the necessity of God's election in Romans, and they show the difference between works of flesh and works of God's promise, in Galatians.

I feel like I'm forgetting other examples, but my point being the Bible identifies allegory, and also provides for us the true understanding. And that's when we have it on Biblical authority, we can point to the place, and say, Here, this is where God says that Esau is allegorical for being a slave, or whatever it may be.

Any assertion of allegory that is not identified as such in the Bible, and does not have Scripture telling what the allegory means, it simply lacks Scriptural authority, and is then a matter of personal opinion, which I think should not be elevated above that, becoming the foundation for your doctrine.

On thing I often find though is that sometimes these personal thoughts of how this illustrates such and such, I find many things in the Bible do that. We can be describing a doctrinal truth from one part of the Bible, and realize how this story of David or Ruth or a prophecy from Jeremiah seems to perfectly illustrate that doctrine. I see that a lot. But I think we need to be careful to separate that from an actual identified Biblical allegory.

Much love!

I can agree with most of this! Thanks

 

[Ferris Bueller]

John (the Apostle, not Calvin) wrote that their leaving us showed they had not been of us. And that if they had been of us, they would have remained. This is what the Bible says about OSAS. That if you "leave", it's appearances only, you appeared to be "in", and you appeared to "go out", which made it appear that you were never "in".

That is OSAS then and now (apostolic times and modern times). There is no "new OSAS"

@BloodBought 1953 himself will tell you himself that he left and, yet, remained saved the whole time.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I think their will be far more NOSAS believers in hell. who think they were saved, But will be told on that fateful day, Depart from me, FOR I NEVER KNEW YOU.

because instead of trusting in God and his promises, they trusted in self. and thought all their might works in Jesus name was enough.

I'm confident that the NEW OSAS is leading as many people to hell as the works gospel did. Both have the potential to make people believe they are saved when they really are not.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Like I've said before at times . . . people have their opinions of their perceptions, and that can be a lot different than reality. But I always seem to come across people who don't seem to care about that. They take their opinions and perceptions as established fact and run with it.

You've siezed on the wording of one or two people about "leaving God", and taken it to lengths that they did not mean when they wrote those words.

I've been following this dialog with you and others for quite a while now. I'm always very interested in what other people think, and I pay close attention. I ask lots of questions, as you've seen. And I remember what people say, for the most part.

John (the Apostle, not Calvin) wrote that their leaving us showed they had not been of us. And that if they had been of us, they would have remained. This is what the Bible says about OSAS. That if you "leave", it's appearances only, you appeared to be "in", and you appeared to "go out", which made it appear that you were never "in".

That is OSAS then and now (apostolic times and modern times). There is no "new OSAS", this whole discussion shows a misapprehension of what rebirth is.

You don't stop being born from Adam, and you don't stop being born from God. It's just that simple.

Much love!

I don't care about the OSAS argument. I only care about what the Bible actually makes clear: Make sure you are saved in the first place. That is what matters. It does not matter if a person knows the truth about OSAS but isn't saved to begin with for the argument to have any application to their situation either way. Some people seem to think 'believing in Christ' means believing in a OSAS doctrine. I say what the Bible says, make sure you are presently believing in Christ's sacrifice and, thus, ready to face him at the Judgment. That is what matters. Our opinions about OSAS do not matter. They do not change the necessity to be a believer when you leave this earth.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

That is nonsense. Then how did God judge ALL THOSE BEFORE the law given to Moses?

Paul explains that here:

"14Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15So they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them 16on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Christ Jesus,b as proclaimed by my gospel." Romans 2:14-16​

 

[marks]

@BloodBought 1953 himself will tell you himself that he left and, yet, remained saved the whole time.

I'm telling you what the Bible says, not anecdotes. Who besides BB1953 has said this? And . . . did he mean what you mean when you talk about it?

Anyone can question the reality of their conversion. It's not a bad thing to do, if we are on a truly Biblical foundation.

2 Timothy 2:11-14 KJV
11) It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12) If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13) If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
14) Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

The idea that someone can stop being reborn, well, on the heels of that is, How? Each person will have to fill in their own answer (because there is not a Biblical answer), which will end up enslaving them to their self-induced performance requirements. Or in other words, legalistic living.

Because the Biblical teaching is God's faithfulness to His redeemed. Other answers will be individual, and not that.

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Have personal assurance from the Spirit of God grants assurance.

You're referring to the witness of the Spirit. Which is fine, but not if it is not also in conjunction with the witness of the work of the Spirit in your life. For even cultists will claim they have the witness of the Spirit. So it's only by one's behavior as the Lord changes a person that a person can ultimately have assurance that they are truly in the faith and are saved.

The Scriptures give us assurance that Jesus Christ will never forsake us.

That would be a testimony to the security of salvation in the ministry of Christ, not the assurance that you actually possess the security of Christ's ministry. Simply knowing that Christ's ministry is steadfast and sure does not give a person the assurance that they actually have that ministry applied to them in salvation. The security of salvation comes from the sureness of Christ's ministry, as compared to the ministry of the Levites which was not. Assurance of salvation, on the other hand, meaning you have the assurance that Christ's ministry really is applied to your life in salvation, comes from seeing the ever-increasing image of Christ in you as you grow and mature in Christ. The visible outcome of the Spirit in your life is the evidence that you do indeed have the Spirit inside of you in a genuine salvation.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Who besides BB1953 has said this?

I'd have to look at the list of members to remember the others.

And . . . did he mean what you mean when you talk about it?

Most definitely. Now it's not unusual for forum members to change their tune when you tell someone else what they've been saying to you, but I'm confident that BB will stick to his guns and affirm that he believes that a person can fall away back to their old life of sin in unbelief and they will remain saved. We'll see.

 

[kcnalp]

you are AGAINST the Lord Gods Gift of Salvation being Given ONCE and FOREVER kept unto that man, by the Power of God IN that man...

No, not a lie. You are against the Lord Gods Gift of Salvation being GIVEN ONCE AND FOREVER. AND you repeatedly say so!
OWN IT!

Why is it that you have ZERO Scripture to support OSAS? Answer: There is NONE!

 

[kcnalp]

I stand with the TRUTH.
I don’t say OSAS is a license to sin...<—- that is YOUR WORDS.
I don’t stand with YOUR WORDS.
YOUR WORDS are not the TRUTH.
The TRUTH IS GODS WORD! Duh!

Matt 28:
[20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I (“Jesus”) am with you (“me”) alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

John 14:
[17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye “I” know him; for he dwelleth with you “me”, and shall be in you “me.”


* It is CORRUPT MEN WHO contour up LIES and ATTEMPT to put THEIR LIES in another’s mouth, such AS YOU DO.
* It is CORRUPT MEN WHO REJECT Gods SALVATION “IN” a man “SAVES” that man “ONCE” and “FOREVER”, such AS YOU DO.

John 14:
[17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

It AFFECTS ME, not one iota, that YOU REJECT Gods “RECEIVED” Gift of SALVATION IS PERMANENT.
It AFFECTS ME, not one iota, that YOU PREACH “AGAINST” God’s Word, God’s Works, God’s Making, a man SAVED ONCE (IN Me), (IS IN ME), and FOREVER. (ALWAYS, EVEN TO THE END OF THE WORLD!)

YES! I will TRUST Gods WORD “OVER” your word, and your teaching, EVERY TIME!

Glory to God,
Taken

See above.

 

[kcnalp]

Wisdom is not TAUGHT.
Wisdom is the quality of being Wise.
Christ IS the Wisdom. (1 Cor 1:24)
A man LACKING Wisdom Concerning Godly things, LACKS Christ “IN” him.

You have not revealed (by your fruit), that you have WISDOM IN YOU.

OSAS is an acronym, which stands for the words...
ONCE - which means “something has occurred ONE time”.
SAV-ED - which mean “the past tense of Salvation HAS occurred”.
ALWAYS - which means “Never ending”.
SAV-ED - which means “the Salvation that occurred shall NEVER cease”.

* Salvation IS Gods GIFT, He BOUGHT and Paid FOR......FOR EVERY MAN.
* Gods GIFTS are NOT forced upon ANY man.
* ANY MAN, “who” DESIRES to “HAVE” Gods GIFT....MUST Reach out and TAKE His GIFT.
* ONCE a man TAKES Gods Gift, that GIFT IS RECEIVED unto that man...
ALWAY, even unto the end of the world...!! (Matt 28:20)

God gave ALL of MANKIND the LESSON of Him GIVING the GIFT of ETERNAL LIFE......WAY BACK IN THE Scriptures regarding Adam IN the Garden of EDEN....and that Gods Provisions IS ONE THING....and a man TAKING is another thing!

YOUR LACK of wisdom and understanding, only affects YOU.

IF you studied the Scriptures, YOU should have DISCOVERED; Wisdom and Understanding of Godly things, IS ONLY by and through Gods Power “IN” a man, and that “POWER”, IS Christ. (1 Cor 1:24)

YOUR preaching AGAINST OSAS, is the essentially, YOUR preaching AGAINST Gods Word, Wisdom, Power.

A man is EXPRESSLY Made SAVED, by the BAPTISM of Gods Holy Spirit, ENTERING, “IN” a man.
Once Gods Spirit ENTERS “IN” a man, that man “IS” Forever and Alway “WITH” the Lord God Almighty...and Once and Forever the Lord God Almighty “IS” “WITH” that man.

* You give ZERO Scriptural references TO SUPPORT YOUR PREACHING OF Gods Holy Spirit Entering “IN” a man, and then “EXITING” that man.

I do NOT agree with YOUR preaching, YOUR words, and find you trying to stuff your words;

(@kcnalp ”OSAS is a license to sin” )

in an others mouth, juvenile and lame, and seen for what it is, juvenile and lame.

Scripture;
1 John 3:
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Obviously you are not wise to the fact: Becoming Baptized WITH and IN the Holy Spirit; MAKES THE MAN BORN OF GOD, and FREES that man from the possibility of EVER AGAIN committing SIN!

Smoke Screen! ZERO OSAS in the NT!

 

[kcnalp]

Of course YOU can Forsake God.

Amen! No OSAS in the Bible!

 

[kcnalp]

YOU are confused. NO one is speaking FOR YOU, or making claims FOR YOU.

OSAS says I can NEVER be unsaved. Don't you even know your own OSAS false doctrine?

 

[kcnalp]

No.
Men who KNOW and UNDERSTAND and BELIEVE OSAS, are not trying to convince each other! They ARE ALEADY “in agreement” with each other!

They are “ALREADY” brothers “IN” Christ forever!

Then why are you trying to convince each other? Answer: OSAS is a HOAX!

 

[Taken]

The original OSAS teaching taught that if you left God you were never really saved to begin with. The NEW OSAS says you are still saved if you leave God. The NEW OSAS is a horrible doctrine. An end-times doctrine of destruction, IMO.

What is this “new OSAS”, and WHO is accredited with deciding to hijack OSAS and change it’s meaning?

 

[kcnalp]

So you've ceased from sin?

Never said any such thing.

 

[Taken]

Why is it that you have ZERO Scripture to support OSAS? Answer: There is NONE!

False, as are all questions you ask and answer for others.
You have been shown repeatedly and fail to acknowledge or comprehend.

Not my job to understand FOR YOU.

 

[Taken]

See above.

I hardly require you to point out what I said! LOL

 

[kcnalp]

Why?
You don’t recognize The UMPTEEN times you have been given Scripture that applies to a man Converted IN Christ, saved ONCE and forever.
The Spirit of God forever, always, with that man.
God will NEVER Leave that man.
That man is FOREVER with God.
You repeatedly DEFY the TRUTH.
Nothing whatsoever IS Greater or more POWERFUL than GOD’S SPIRIT “IN” a man, which is EXACTLY what KEEPS a “Baptized IN GODS SPIRIT SAVED and CONVERTED man “SAVED once and forever”!!!

Not complicated!

Believing is ONE thing...that a man does...and that man “feels good about himself”.
A man SAYING to other men, he believes is ONE thing....that men do....and other men “may believe that man is on the right path”.

A man “HEARTFULLY CONFESSING TO GOD” that he BELIEVES “IN HIS HEART”, IN God, IN Jesus IS the Christ.....is a completely DIFFERENT thing...
And gets a completely DIFFERENT response...FROM GOD....NOT men!
THAT “Response”, comes from God.
“THAT specific Confession of a man” gets Gods ATTENTION, FOR God to LOOK in that mans HEART, to see “IF” his Confession BE TRUE...
AND “IF” that mans HEARTFUL CONFESSION “IS” True...
* Gods Response “IS” to forgive that man FOR HAVING “HAD” Disbelief.
* Gods Response “IS” to forgive that man FOR HAVING corrupted his SOUL, being IN that mans CORRUPT flesh.
* Gods Response “IS” HIS WORKS of Baptism and Conversion;
*Restoring the mans soul...back to very good, Saving the Life in that soul, FOREVER WITH Gods Life.
*Circumcising the mans Heart...cutting off a mans OLD natural truth, and giving the man HIS Spirit of Truth.
*Quickening the mans spirit...from natural mans born seed, to spiritual, Born again of Gods Seed;
*Covering that mans sin...with Gods Light, that that mans sin be NO MORE seen or remembered, by God.
*Washing that mans body...with Jesus’ Blood, that that mans body be preserved Acceptable to be RISEN UP uncorrupted.
*Sanctifying that man WHOLLY, body, soul, spirit, Once and Forever that man IS SET APART WITH the Lord God ALMIGHTY.
*Justifying THAT a SAV-ED man TO BE “not APPOINTED to Wrath”, whereby men HAVE BEEN WARNED, Gods WRATH SHALL come down from Heaven UPON the whole Corrupt Earth, and Every Corrupt man ON, IN, UNDER the Earth.
* Justifying Every Man Saved, Converted, SHALL BE LIFTED UP, OFF the Face of the EARTH, DURING the DAYS of GREAT TRIBULATION upon the Earth....
* EXCEPT the 144,000 WHO ARE EXPRESSLY and VISIBLY SEALED unto God, WITH Gods SEAL in their foreheads, FOR ALL natural men TO SEE.

REALLY?
Your preaching is in Express Contradiction to Gods Word.
Your preaching WOULD REQUIRE “ALL OF GODS WORKS IN A MAN”, to become “UN-DONE”.
NO where does Scripture Teach...GODS WORKS of;
Restoration, Circumcising, Quickening, Covering, Washing, Sanctifying, Justifying, Saving, Rebirthing....ONCE accomplished IN A MAN.....
EVER becomes “undone”!!!

So why don’t you STOP preaching and name calling and accusing....
AND PROVE your claims......that ALL OF GODS WORKS ACCOMPLISHED “IN” A SAVED and CONVERTED MAN ..... CAN Become “UN-DONE”...!!

Get to getting...PROVE Gods WORKS IN A MAN, CAN become UN-DONE!

No OSAS Scripture? I know!