Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Ferris Bueller]

I do not believe true Christian ministries are reaponsible for any reprobate's destruction! Evil begets evil. A born again Christian has God guiding him and has prepared good works for him to do. The lost are lost, not by our doing.

I think that if a well meaning but misguided Christian worker teaches the new OSAS (not Calvin's OSAS) that says Christians can choose to live in a life of sin in unbelief and still be saved when Jesus comes back, because salvation is not by works, and the people that worker ministers to do that, that worker will have no reward for his labor in the field and building of God. Because people who live that way are not born again. There's no reward waiting for the worker who raises up people in the church through false and misguided doctrines, like the new OSAS, that cause them to not be genuine believers. The worker himself may be saved, provided he himself has not fallen victim to his own misguided doctrine, but only as one barely escaping the flames of judgment.

 

[Taken]

The old OSAS - Calvin's OSAS - taught that if this sure work of God wasn't happening in you then you weren't even saved to begin with. The new revised version of OSAS says you are saved even if the sure work of God is not happening in you, just as long as you believe.

Also @kcnalp

OSAS is not a NEW concept.
Agree...IF a mans “BELIEF” in Jesus, IS NOT A HEART_FULL Confession...
That man has NOT receive Salvation, According to Gods WAY!
That man CAN fall away....and there ARE NUMEROUS men...themselves CLAIM, they once BELIEVED, but no longer BELIEVE. They were NOT saved, and then “unsaved”.
Gods Spirit DID NOT DWELL IN them, and then Leave them.
Gods Spirit DWELT WITH them, and then Left them.

Once SAVED is expressly about Having Been Converted, Forgiven and Baptized IN the Spirit, the Spirit of God resides “IN” that man and that man “IN” Gods Spirit and FOREVER that man “IS” with the Lord God Almighty.
That man “IS” Sav-ED.

THAT ^^ is expressly accomplished, WHEN a man Performs the SERVICE of COMMITMENT, (Rom 12:1). (Rom 10:10) Declaring His HEARTFUL BELIEF IN GOD, IN Jesus IS the Christ, and ARE forgiven. (Mark 4:12)
THAT man, Called “IN” Christ, SHALL BE CALLED UP, “RAPTURED”, WHEN Christ Gathers HIS Church unto Him, BEFORE THE TRIBULATION.
(IN Christ, raised TO MEET Lord, in the air. (1 Thes 4: 16 & 17)
(ALREADY DELIVERED from the Wrath to come. (1 Thes 1:10)
(NOT subject to WRATH. (1 Thes 5:9)

THEREAFTER, THAT MAN, while ALIVE IN HIS FLESH, is prepared to “DO” Works that Glorify Gods Great Name, and SHALL BE REWARDED, for Works that “DO” Glorify Gods Great Name.

“AN” “uncommitted Believer”, WHILE believing; has GODS Spirit IS WITH that man; but not IN that man. “IF” that man “CONTINUES” (endures) believing unto the day of his Physical Bodily Death; at the time of his Physical Bodily Death, he SHALL BE SAVED THEN.
That man AT ANY TIME, can BE influenced by EVIL spirits, WICKED men, Fall Away from Believing and BE CALLED, Having Fallen From Faith, and WILL NOT be SAVED at his physical death.

An “uncommitted Believer”, SHALL be subject to the days of the TRIBULATION, ( REV 6:16) for NOT HAVING COMMITTED to a Declaration of Heartful BELIEF that JESUS IS the CHRIST. They WILL experience the first portion of the Tribulation, which IS precisely, the WRATH of the Lamb, for not having Declared committed Belief in the Lamb of God, or accepted, according to His Way; Salvation Before physical death.

After the Wrath of the Lamb, ensues the Wrath of the Devil. (Rev 12:12)
The Devil, Satan, himself also Angry against men who DO NOT BELIEVE “IN” ‘him”, being the Almighty God. ANGRY at MEN who will NOT acquiesce TO “him”. Satan will be Angry that men BELIEVE in the Heavenly Almighty God, and WILL seek them out to KILL THEM.
Men WHO KEEP their Belief IN the Heavenly God and Jesus, SHALL BE KILLED....martyred...Bodily killed and RECEIVE Salvation at time of their bodily Death.
THEY SHALL BE Bodily RAISED UP, AFTER Christ Jesus’ 1,000 yrs reign, ie God will Bring THEM, WITH GOD, ie FIRST RESURRECTION, after the Tribulation, after the 1,000 yrs reign.
(Resurrected CLAIMED BY GOD. (1 Thes 4:14)

A HUGE DIFFERENCE between “BELIEVER”, (who CAN FALL AWAY) and “Committed CONVERTED Believer”. (Who CAN NEVER FALL AWAY).

A BELIEVER WHO CONTINUES believing unto his bodily death SHALL be Saved.

A Committed Converted Believer IS SAVED, having ALREADY Voluntarily by his own Freewill GIVEN HIS BODILY LIFE unto Death, Died unto Christ, Crucified with Christ Jesus!

* Mans WORKS DO NOT SAVE a man.
* Mans SERVICE unto God (according to Gods WAY) SAVES a man.
* Gods WORKS SAVES a man.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[PinSeeker]

Was Paul a Christian?

1 Corinthians 9:27 (NKJV)
27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

Paul does that, KC, because he is saved, and because of God's work in him. This is exactly what we were talking about in this thread. He is making his calling and election sure ~ making it evident both to himself and others ~ not in his own power but in God's, just as he implores the Philippians (and all Christians) to do:

"...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:12-13)​

And this is just after he had said the following:

"...He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." (Philippians 1:6)​

God's grace comes to us free; it is His gracious gift. But then it does demand (among other things) personal responsibility, including obedience, on our part.

You (and you are certainly not alone, as there are a number of other posters here who do the same thing) inadvertently make obedience to be a work that somehow earns us our salvation. That's not true at all. When we are saved, KC, God changes our hearts, which changes the way we see things, think about things, and ultimately do things. Because of our changed hearts, we are no longer in rebellion against God, but want to do things for Him ~ serve Him, obey Him, glorify Him... for His sake ~ because of having been reborn of the Spirit.

Open your eyes to His amazing grace, my friend. Grace and peace to you.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

OSAS is not a NEW concept.

There is a new version of OSAS that is popular today which is different than Calvin's OSAS. Calvin's original OSAS teaching said that the person who falls away was never really saved to begin with. The new OSAS teaching says the person who falls away is still saved no matter what.

 

[Taken]

Paul does that, KC, because he is saved, and because of God's work in him. This is exactly what we were talking about in this thread. He is making his calling and election sure ~ making it evident both to himself and others ~ not in his own power but in God's, just as he implores the Philippians (and all Christians) to do:

"...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:12-13)​

And this is just after he had said the following:

"...He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." (Philippians 1:6)​

God's grace comes to us free; it is His gracious gift. But then it does demand (among other things) personal responsibility, including obedience, on our part.

You (and you are certainly not alone, as there are a number of other posters here who do the same thing) inadvertently make obedience to be a work that somehow earns us our salvation. That's not true at all. When we are saved, KC, God changes our hearts, which changes the way we see things, think about things, and ultimately do things. Because of our changed hearts, we are no longer in rebellion against God, but want to do things for Him ~ serve Him, obey Him, glorify Him... for His sake ~ because of having been reborn of the Spirit.

Open your eyes to His amazing grace, my friend. Grace and peace to you.

Amen!

Rom 8:24
[23] And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
[24] For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
[25] But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Some people can NOT Believe, NOT See by Hearing. They MUST SEE with their EYES, and UNTIL they can SEE with their EYES....they CONTINUE TO “HOPE” what they have Heard IS TRUE.

In the OT God called men “stiffnecked”, because they COULD NOT BELIEVE BY HEARING, and without their own EYES “SEEING”.

I have NEVER SEEN the Lord God...YET I Believe “without” MY EYES “SEEING”. I do not ‘HOPE’ for the WORKS of God IN me, I already TRUST to Believe God IS Faithful, and that I HAVE already DONE according to Gods WAY, and God Being Faithful has already DONE IN ME, according to Gods WAY; Meaning I do NOT HOPE for Gods Salvation, I already HAVE His GIFT of Salvation IN ME, by, through, of His Works.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Ferris Bueller]

“AN” “uncommitted Believer”, WHILE believing; has GODS Spirit IS WITH that man; but not IN that man.

That person is not born again. No inner transformation has occurred. He will not be saved when Jesus returns. You have to be born again to see and enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[Taken]

There is a new version of OSAS that is popular today which is different than Calvin's OSAS. Calvin's original OSAS teaching said that the person who falls away was never really saved to begin with.

That is still TRUE.

The new OSAS teaching says the person who falls away is still saved no matter what.

That is corrupt and FALSE. Don’t know WHO is taking the “credit” for twisting the truth into a lie. But that is ON them. So WHO is taking “that supposed credit” ?
Ludicrous...Fallen from Faith, IS fallen from Belief. No where does Scripture reveal God forces a man who rejects God to be with God.

* Men are either WITH God. WITHIN Christ or AGAINST (without) God.
God is either WITH men, IN men, or AGAINST men.
AND who is WITH God, WITHIN Christ, or AGAINST (without) God, IS ESTABLISHED during individual mens bodily physical life span.
* ANY man “SHOULD” personally know where “he” stands at any time;
with, within or without God, by the freewill choices individual men make.

OT men who believed IN God and His (unnamed word):
received their Salvation ... at Bodily Death, living souls huddled in the comfort side of hell with Abraham and the Tree of Life to sustain them....until they (souls) were raised up to heaven (after Jesus’ soul was raised up from hell, and returned to His body). Jesus being FIRST in all things.

NT men are FREE to Hear, Learn, pick and choose WHAT to believe, WHAT extent (WITH God, WITH Jesus, WITHIN Christ, WITHOUT/Against God) to believe.
WITH God...shall be saved.
WITH Jesus...shall be saved.
WITHIN Christ...are saved, ONCE and FOREVER.
WITHOUT God...are Faithless, are not saved.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I think that if a well meaning but misguided Christian worker teaches the new OSAS (not Calvin's OSAS) that says Christians can choose to live in a life of sin in unbelief and still be saved when Jesus comes back, because salvation is not by works, and the people that worker ministers to do that, that worker will have no reward for his labor in the field and building of God.

Who teaches that gospel to new converts to "Come and receive Jesus as your Savior but don't worry, you don't have to change your lifestyle, you can keep your ways and sin it up!" Who teaches that?
Belief in Christ means you know Him (at least partially enough to trust Him), take Him seriously and do what He tells you to do. If you do not submit to His authority, get off your throne, experience godly sorrow for your sins and honestly seek forgiveness, ask Him to forgive you and obey His commandments with a renewed heart that grows and is nourished daily by His word, then you really do not believe. It can't be just an altar call, a moment of elation without the rest. Pastors offer this altar call after a Spirit-filled sermon that penetrates the hearts of unbelievers and literally drags the person to the altar while they resist, are reluctant and doubtful to go but God draws them powerfully, breaking down their resistance (while Satan is giving it all he's got to discourage them) and they get up and go, in joy and tears. But the invitation to receive the Lord, after the prayers and confessions, it's not over! The Pastor necessitates that the new convert begin their relationship by a commitment of their lives to Christ (which is usually part of the pray), to sin no more (die to their old ways and start a new life), find a good church to attend, attend Bible study regularly, get water baptized and baptized by the Holy Spirit, etc.
I know some people just go up there and think I'm in. They themselves know if they have experienced God living in them and comfirming His presense or not. They know if they believe the gospel or not. They know if they are seriously interested in a relationship. And for some, this half-hearted compromise with God is a start - don't count it as a failure yet. They may attend church even for years, attending for their wives or children, playing the part with a nice Sunday Christianese greeting and smile -a bit pretentious and fake. And this is what you see and condemn quickly; but God is working with them. His word is slowly working. The Word is powerful. It may take years and then something happens that really brings them to their knees. So you really need to cut them some slack. God does. He is patient.
And then there are truly reprobate tares planted by Satan ( but we don't know for sure) - stay away from them, expose them. There is a process. Pray for them, get others involved, the Pastor and if they still persist with their sin, pride and rebelliousness, suspend them from the church. Give them time. Spiritual wars within us are not readily won. Some people are stubborn. But until they die, there is hope. The Bible says encourage one another forty times. It doesn't say condemn one another or judge one another rashly and firmly because they are hypocrites. We were all dirty rags too and hypocrites at times.

 

[ScottA]

Was Paul a Christian?

1 Corinthians 9:27 (NKJV)
27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

OSAS is totally BOGUS!

You are not considering the times.

Paul lived and served on the cusp of the changes brought about by Christ, of Israel on the way out and the gentiles on the way in--those two folds that Christ must bring. He literally addressed both the dead and the living. Was he a Christian? He followed Christ, so yes. But he made it clear that he struggled on the edge, and even was purposefully all things to all men, that he might save some. In which case, using the many things he said without considering every context, the things that only God might sort out--you assume too much. Nonetheless, none of that takes away the fact that "today is the day of salvation" for those who turn completely to God and die to self, and being dead receive new life in Christ and are a new creation born anew of the spirit of God who has no end, except Christ who's end was in the flesh only.

So, no, Once Saved Always Saved is not "bogus", but is the power of God by His own eternal spirit--which you now campaign against, as does Satan. To your own shame, those who are His, born of His spirit, should be advocating for that newness of life which is everlasting--unshakable, just as promised. Do you not realize that you campaign against the Holy Spirit, which without repentance, is unforgivable?

 

[PinSeeker]

Calvin's original OSAS teaching said that the person who falls away was never really saved to begin with.

Well, Calvin said/wrote it, because God did, through John:

"Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." (1 John 2:18-19)

The new OSAS teaching says the person who falls away is still saved no matter what.

Well, I think you're inadvertently confusing what "falling away" really means. In one way, what you say here is a total contradiction of what you said immediately above, that the person who falls away was never really saved to begin with. But if the person is saved, then he or she cannot fall away; he or she is kept from falling away (stumbling) because of God's power.

What you're really getting at here, maybe without even realizing it, is something called antinomianism, which says there are no consequences for sin or disobedience, which is completely false. For those who are saved, there is no condemnation for sin (Romans 8:1), but that in no way dispels the fact that there are still consequences for and of sin. No, God most certainly disciplines those He loves.

Antinomianism has been with us for a long, long time, unfortunately. It is a heresy. Some "OSAS" folks do believe in antinomianism, and they are terribly wrong.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Taken]

You are not considering the times.

Paul lived and served on the cusp of the changes brought about by Christ, of Israel on the way out and the gentiles on the way in--those two folds that Christ must bring. He literally addressed both the dead and the living. Was he a Christian? He followed Christ, so yes. But he made it clear that he struggled on the edge, and even was purposefully all things to all men, that he might save some. In which case, using the many things he said without considering every context, the things that only God might sort out--you assume too much. Nonetheless, none of that takes away the fact that "today is the day of salvation" for those who turn completely to God and die to self, and being dead receive new life in Christ and are a new creation born anew of the spirit of God who has no end, except Christ who's end was in the flesh only.

Amen. Jesus called His days on earth; “THESE LAST DAYS”..which signified, what Scripture teaches; Jesus came among the Jews to Seek and Save Jews presently on the Earth; Sent Jews (Apostles) out to the Jews first, then were sent (disciples 70+ I think it was), among all the Tribes, to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and sent Saul/Paul among the Gentiles (and some Jews present) to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ, revealing Jews would become blinded, to bring in the time of the Gentiles, and then “IN the LAST DAYS”, (Tribulation DAYS), the Jews having rejected Jesus the Christ would be sent Jewish Witness (2) and Jewish Teachers (144,000) and A Lamb, (during the Seals, & the Trumps) ... the last days great revival ... and then the Wrath of God. (Bowls/Vials) upon all left upon the Earth, who reject the Lord God.

So, no, Once Saved Always Saved is not "bogus", but is the power of God by His own eternal spirit--which you now campaign against, as does Satan.

Agree.

To your own shame, those who are His, born of His spirit, should be advocating for that newness of life which is everlasting--unshakable, just as promised. Do you not realize that you campaign against the Holy Spirit, which without repentance, is unforgivable?

Agree. He does not simply “disagree” with those who have “Accepted” Gods great gift of Permanent Once and Forever Salvation now.......BUT absolutely DOES “campaign, advocate” AGAINST men who have “Accepted” Gods assured Gift of Salvation.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I personally don't see the OSAS vs. not OSAS a matter of salvation. You're either really saved or you're not. What one thinks about OSAS doesn't have any bearing on that.

 

[Taken]

I personally don't see the OSAS vs. not OSAS a matter of salvation. You're either really saved or you're not. What one thinks about OSAS doesn't have any bearing on that.

Agree, individual beliefs and understandings differ greatly.
Nothing new, we all are individuals, at different stages/ages, learning at different speeds of occasionally to daily, and many walking different paths, and even those on the same path at different distances.

However there is that conundrum of a difference between “disagreeing” and “promoting” Gods Word of Truth and Promise OF Salvation now and forever;
as being, “a doctrine of demons”!!! <—- referring expressly in this instant to kcnalp own words.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Once Saved, Always Saved?
OP ^

Yes!
Absolutely God Sent His Salvation TO EARTH, for ALL men to reach out and TAKE, Possess, Have and Hold FOREVER, KEPT FOREVER by the Power of God, unto ALL men that TAKE Gods Salvation.

Not a big mystery ...
If a man has NOT reached out and TAKEN the Gift of Salvation God has given that man....duh....that man does not possess Gods gift given that man.

Not a big mystery ...
If a man HAS reached out and TAKEN the Gift of Salvation God has given that man....duh...that man DOES posses His Gift of Salvation FOREVER.

OOPS...UNLESS a man think God liar!

 

[BloodBought 1953]

I know what Christian salvation is. Do you? It's believing in and confessing Jesus. OSAS is not in the Bible.

Apparently your Bible has some serious omissions....

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Lawlessness is the sign of an unbeliever, not a believer. Remember?

“ Not Believing” is the sign of an Unbeliever .....All Believers “ lawlessness” is Forgiven , and actually it’s even better than “ that! “ —— they are forgotten....That’s a great Thing for both me AND you! There is much “ lawlessness “ in your life as well as mine.....I thank God for his Grace—- how about you?

 

[BloodBought 1953]

If you are not struggling with sin you are not saved.



“All those that *BELIEVE * in me already HAVE Eternal Life and shall NEVER be Condemned, They have already passed from Death unto Life ——- unless, of course they don’t struggle with sin — THAT changes everything that I just said!”

That last part there? I made that up....

Struggle or no struggle ( and I believe that a struggle will usually take place ! ) , The criteria for Salvation is Resting in Paul’s Gospel Of Grace —- as I have said many, many times— when it comes to Salvation, the old hymn that is sang mindlessly in Church pews Sunday after Sunday has it correct—— it really is , “ Nothing But The Blood Of Jesus”......

 

[BloodBought 1953]

That is how you examine yourself to see if you are in the faith and have the Holy Spirit inside of you and are ready to stand before Jesus at the coming judgment.


Unbiblical . Paul’s Test was this—- can you say that “ Jesus is Lord”........it is impossible to say that and mean it unless you have the Holy Spirit in you .....ya know, you just can’t go around and make stuff up because it sounds good.....Facts * DO* exist.....

 

[BloodBought 1953]

1 Corinthians 3:8-15 is about loss of reward for your planting and watering according to whatever ministry you have been entrusted with and are to be faithful to. Lack of faithfulness and success in that calling will result in loss of reward when Jesus comes back, and so the minister of the gospel should be careful how he builds. He himself may be saved, but, because of his failure he will only be saved as one escaping a burning house. The passage has nothing to do with a person being able to live the unrepentant life of an unbeliever and still be saved when Jesus comes back. John said the person who does that is not a child of God.

Once again, your “ Theory” might sound good....it just ain’t Biblical....you just pull stuff out of thin air and act like it’s true because you say so....NOBODY has EVER came away with the same “ take” that you have in regard to these verses...you continue to just think whatever you want to think...
L

 

[BloodBought 1953]

OSASers are the most judgmental people on earth! I think it's against forum rules.

I just pass on what Paul says......I guess he was “ judgmental” also ......btw, have you read Galatians yet? Please do so and then return and show me where I am wrong....