Timing of Eze 37 and 38 pre Trib?

[dad]

excuse me my friend, My whole post was about the gog attack that Jesus puts down.

I am very focused. Are you?

You offered Matthew 24. You thought that was about the invasion attempt by Gog?

 

[dad]

If you do not understand the Seals are a part of the 70th week then that's on you. I shan't even waste the effort to try and inform you on that. Everything after Rev. 4:1 is the HEREAFTER.

So after the seals, after the sixth seal we see that the 144,000 are sealed. Did you think the Tribulation witnesses were sealed after the tribulation? If so, don't use the word informed.

No one is "playing with numbers" this has been my calling for over 37 years, I am an expert on these things. I am writing a book on End Time Eschatology as we speak.

There are lots of experts on making stuff up. Numbers do have significance, and we do not even fully understand it all. However, imagining some supposed significance of numbers that destroys the actual numbers given and waves it away is ignorance, not significance.

 

[dad]

I am talking about in the narrative of Revelation.

The harvest happens in the Trumpets and Thunders. Even in the opening of the 4th Seal. Jesus is already here during the harvest.

OK, let's look at that.

Revelation 6:7
And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
Revelation 6:8
And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Where do you get the idea Jesus has already returned when the pale horse rides? Not from the bible apparently.

The Second Coming is not 42 months after the harvest is already over. The Second Coming is before the harvest starts.

What harvest? You offered the fourth seal and that is unconnected to any harvest of Jesus returning.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You offered Matthew 24. You thought that was about the invasion attempt by Gog?

I offered matt 24. Because In Ezek the prophet said they were in the mountain.

Matt 24 shows them leaving jerusalem and going to the mountain AFTER the AOD. so it fits. Up until the AOD. Israel is not in the mountains, they are in the cities..

 

[Timtofly]

OK, let's look at that.

Revelation 6:7
And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
Revelation 6:8
And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Where do you get the idea Jesus has already returned when the pale horse rides? Not from the bible apparently.

What harvest? You offered the fourth seal and that is unconnected to any harvest of Jesus returning.

You are not paying attention. The Second Coming is the 6th Seal. There is still a harvest in the 4th Seal. But only 25%. There is still 75% of the harvest after the Second Coming. Do you think the church should make up more than 25% or less than 25% of the world's population? Should more souls be spared or all of mankind just be sent to the Lake of Fire?

 

[dad]

The tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God begins.

If that were true, then we have the 144,000 Tribulation witnesses being sealed after this.

Here is the coming of Jesus at the sixth seal, when He sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.
Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

If the wrath of God is that last seven years, then what does it tell us they were cast into? Here is the setting from Rev 14

Revelation 14:8
And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Revelation 14:9
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Revelation 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Here we have people warned not to get the mark. No need for that warning AFTER Jesus returns! We also see that that great trading power that corrupted the world and gets destroyed is now gone so that the beast and the ten kings can start to rule. That is not after He comes!

So you say that the Jews will be a witness in the tribulation period. That's truth and as we CAN PROVE, the tribulation is over at the 6th seal by the cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars that are in Matt 24 and the sixth seal. Then you say that the Jews are not chosen for a flight somewhere. The Word says that they are.

What is your point? Yes the people from the tribes God chooses will be a witness and protected in the Tribulation, of course.

Rev 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

At that time, the plagues are not poured out on earth yet.

Revelation 15:8
And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.


So we have people in heaven here and this is before all Israel gets saved in the end on earth. They include saved jews of course. The song of Moses was about being delivered. Very similar to that end time, so what a great hymn to sing.

Those that are raptured from the earth at the sixth seal, just before the wrath of God are singing the Song of Moses. They are Jews that took a flight and are in heaven for the marriage supper.

The only folks of Jewish lineage that are at the Marriage Supper are those who are saved before it happens. Of course they are Raptured also. The 144,000 are not even sealed yet by the sixth seal. So if you think Jesus has returned to earth (your idea of what the Rapture is apparently) you cannot be correct.

Jacob had two brides.

He also had 12 sons, so?

The fig tree has two harvests.

Well, when we see blooms start we know one of them is near!

God will regraft Israel into the olive tree during the 70th week of Daniel.

The timing of when they are saved is the end of that seven years.

This is why the Church is not mentioned after Rev 5 unless they are in heaven.

That makes no sense. You say that because Israel is saved in the Tribulation, that is why the church is not mentioned? I think the reason is because the Bride is not on the earth in this time.

All you have to do is read what the word says. When it says we are not appointed to wrath, that means we will not be here during the wrath of God. And neither will His other bride.

Chapter and verse for the other bride? If you mean saved Israel in the end, or the saved gentiles of that same period, they are supposed to be there on earth. It would be ridiculous and inappropriate to say they should not be!

 

[dad]

excuse me my friend, My whole post was about the gog attack that Jesus puts down.

I am very focused. Are you?

Why focus on Matt 24 then?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Why focus on Matt 24 then?

why do you think I focused on matt 24? I mentioned it. How is that focusing on it?

 

[dad]

You are not paying attention. The Second Coming is the 6th Seal.

Then explain why the 144,000 are not even sealed yet??

There is still a harvest in the 4th Seal. But only 25%.

What makes people being killed a 'harvest'? Do you think the Nazis made a harvest too?

There is still 75% of the harvest after the Second Coming.

Are these good or evil people?

Do you think the church should make up more than 25% or less than 25% of the world's population? Should more souls be spared or all of mankind just be sent to the Lake of Fire?

No idea what that is supposed to refer to or mean.

 

[dad]

why do you think I focused on matt 24? I mentioned it. How is that focusing on it?

Show us where it talks about the invasion of Eze 38?

 

[Timtofly]

Then explain why the 144,000 are not even sealed yet??


What makes people being killed a 'harvest'? Do you think the Nazis made a harvest too?


Are these good or evil people?


No idea what that is supposed to refer to or mean.

So when the wheat is put in the barn and the tares burned up, that is not symbolic of death, but still walking around on earth? The church is constantly seeing a harvest, not because men repent. The harvest is that soul entering the city in Hebrews 11, Abraham saw, not built by hands. That is physical death. That is shedding Adam's flesh and blood. That is entering the eternal body that is from God, permanent and incorruptible. The harvest is either eternal life or eternal damnation. The harvest is not people walking around on earth holding church in human built buildings.

The church is removed first and glorified. Then while Jesus is on earth, the 144k are the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom on earth. The sheep in Matthew 25 are firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom on earth. The wheat in Matthew 13 is the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom. The Millennium does not start out with billions of lost souls. They are already dead in their eternal damnation. It starts out with the remnant like Noah and 7 other humans. God did not use any of those prior to the Flood. Why would God change that fact at the Second Coming judgment of fire that destroys man's works from off the earth?

 

[Keraz]

Yet we know the 6th seal is speaking of second coming events.

Absolutely not!
The Sixth Seal is the Lords Day of vengeance and wrath, the Return is at least 7 + years later.

People who conflate the Sixth Seal, Revelation 6:12-17 with the glorious Return; Revelation 19:11.... are messing around with the Book of Revelation. Not advisable.

 

[ewq1938]

In more than one place in the bible, Satan falling is connected with stars. There is a difference, I would think, between flying somewhere and 'falling'.

You have not addressed the issue of how the sealing of the witness is AFTER the sixth seal.

There is no issue about that.

 

[ewq1938]

The Sixth Seal is the Lords Day of vengeance and wrath, the Return is at least 7 + years later.

No.

 

[Keraz]

They are metaphorically falling stars/angels. Who else can the stars be in the 6th seal?

When the huge pressure wave of a Coronal Mass Ejection strikes our thousands of satellites, they will be pushed down to crash back onto the earth. They will look like a storm of flaming meteors.

 

[Keraz]

No.

An unsupported opinion that counts for nothing.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Show us where it talks about the invasion of Eze 38?

Did I say it spoke of the invasion?

My friend, You seem to be tryign t nit pic what I said instead of actually sitting down to try to understand what I was saying.

If this is all you are going to do. There is no need to go further.

 

[dad]

So when the wheat is put in the barn and the tares burned up, that is not symbolic of death, but still walking around on earth?

There is no barn or wheat in Rev 6. Your verse talked about some people being killed in the Tribulation.

The church is constantly seeing a harvest, not because men repent. The harvest is that soul entering the city in Hebrews 11, Abraham saw, not built by hands. That is physical death. That is shedding Adam's flesh and blood. That is entering the eternal body that is from God, permanent and incorruptible. The harvest is either eternal life or eternal damnation. The harvest is not people walking around on earth holding church in human built buildings.

Whatever it is, it would need to relate to the thread somehow.

The church is removed first and glorified. Then while Jesus is on earth, the 144k are the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom on earth.

So no 144,000 witnesses in the Tribulation according to you.


However, we see that this 144,000 are BEFORE the ten kings and Antichrist are ruling. That is not after the tribulation! These kings destroy Babylon.
16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.


See, here is the verse from Rev 7 that comes after the 144,000

8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

After Babylon falls we still see the beast in power.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

After Babylon is destroyed the merchants are still trading, buying and selling.

11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The sheep in Matthew 25 are firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom on earth.

I see nothing about 'firstfruits' in Matt 25?

The wheat in Matthew 13 is the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom

Verse that says first fruits?

The Millennium does not start out with billions of lost souls.

Who said it did? However there are untold numbers of saved people. How would you know who will be here?

It starts out with the remnant like Noah and 7 other humans.

Says who? He will rule the nations! Not some living room full of people.

 

[dad]

Did I say it spoke of the invasion?

My friend, You seem to be tryign t nit pic what I said instead of actually sitting down to try to understand what I was saying.

If this is all you are going to do. There is no need to go further.

Here is what I replied to

You -- "
I offered matt 24. Because In Ezek the prophet said they were in the mountain.

Matt 24 shows them leaving jerusalem and going to the mountain AFTER the AOD. so it fits. Up until the AOD. Israel is not in the mountains, they are in the cities."

You referred to Eze, I assume 38 or 39. Then you talk about Matt. You would need to be clear.

 

[dad]

When the huge pressure wave of a Coronal Mass Ejection strikes our thousands of satellites, they will be pushed down to crash back onto the earth. They will look like a storm of flaming meteors.

Too much sci fi?