The Rapture: Too Good to Be True?

[Timtofly]

Agreed. The implications of those teaching this to others will undo any kind of seed they tried to plant. So, IF the Pre-Trib rapture does NOT happen...what will those who were taught that we would escape all the bad things think then? Probably that said person telling them this, is a liar and that there is NO Jesus coming back. I wish people would just be PREPARED either way.

The tribulation is bad because all will die. After death it is too late to be prepared. Current tribulation is bad because people die by the thousands and by the millions. I don't think those "left behind" are going to question the fact when people are dying by the billions. The error is on the point, "surely people will not die".

 

[Timtofly]

I see no requirements of believers in scripture other than belief and obedience, but scripture clearly defines the saints who come out of the great tribulation as part of His church and as those who will live and reign with Him in His kingdom.

I don't see how the word "church" fits in this phrase. The church is in Paradise. If not, who is in Paradise then? Are you saying the church only applies to those currently alive on earth, and not those currently already in Paradise?

 

[michaelvpardo]

I don't see how the word "church" fits in this phrase. The church is in Paradise. If not, who is in Paradise then? Are you saying the church only applies to those currently alive on earth, and not those currently already in Paradise?

The saints that are martyrs of the great tribulation are identified as those who will live and reign with Christ for a thousand years. Are you saying that the church doesn't live and reign with Christ, but are judged in the second resurrection?

 

[Timtofly]

If we're saved to be His witnesses and salt and light to a dying world, why would we be yanked off the planet when we're needed the most? That's just crazy.

Those billions who had to physically die over the last 4,000 years are asking the same thing, no? All thought they were being "yanked away", just when they thought they were needed the most. How is this generation any different, even if it is the last? Only Moses was yanked away, when literally, had he not disobeyed God, would have been used to defeat all those giants on the other side of the Jordan. No one is being yanked away. When time is up, it is up. One is not to take God's timing so personally.

 

[Timtofly]

I quoted those Bible passages because of your denial about the earth STILL existing after Christ's return.

The 'false' doctrine of Amillennialism believes that the new heavens and a new earth (NHNE) begins on the day of Christ's future return. It does not! Amillennialism was a leaven doctrine that began in the 2nd century A.D. It was not held by the 1st century Church fathers.

The NHNE will ONLY begin AFTER... the future "lake of fire" destruction. There CAN be no more 'death' in the NHNE timing. That's another simple Biblical way we can know the lake of fire destruction is PRIOR... to the NHNE timing.

Here I thought you were Amil. Are you saying you are not? I have constantly portrayed the 1,000 years come after the Second Coming. I have disagreement with you, because you lump the Second Coming at one single event like Amil do. Those pre-tribbers you hate with a passion, are only half wrong. You are 100% wrong. The Second Coming is the 6th Seal, and only the 6th Seal. Armageddon happens after Satan's 42 months, but is not the Second Coming. Those pre-trib people place the Second Coming at the wrong time.

 

[Timtofly]

I have no clue what you believe about these things because you said one thing and supplied verses in support of the exact opposite (regarding who the church is) and still have no explanation of how the church could be raptured before the great tribulation, yet be on Earth to be beheaded by the Antichrist for their testimony.

The church is not beheaded for their testimony. The whole point is that this is not the church. The church is still in Paradise. This is lost souls making a profession of faith in the very act of being beheaded. They were saved because, now they are dead. They were not Christians nor saints until the instant they lost their head. This is not accepting Christ to live. This is literally crucifying the flesh to become saved. Now we repent and accept the Atonement. During Satan's 42 months, the alter call is literally having one's head chopped off to become a follower of Christ.

 

[Timtofly]

The saints that are martyrs of the great tribulation are identified as those who will live and reign with Christ for a thousand years. Are you saying that the church doesn't live and reign with Christ, but are judged in the second resurrection?

No, I am saying the church has been in Paradise since the resurrection in 30AD. Their judgment was the Cross, and Jesus received that judgment, not His church.

Do you think Paradise empties and comes to earth at your pre-trib rapture?

The church who has been in Paradise since the Cross, remain there until after the 1,000 year reign. They come down in the New Jerusalem. That is Paradise after the New Heavens and New Earth. Some here claim those currently in Paradise are dead, and waiting for the resurrection at the GWT, after the 1,000 years, to have life.

 

[Keraz]

The whole church in Paradise see everything on earth, no?

No.
That idea is in your imagination and is never stated in the Bible.

Why do you want to remain on earth instead of joining them?

Because that is our destiny and our great privilege; to be His people here on earth. Earning our rewards by proving our faith and trust in Him.
Escaping to a supposed 'paradise', is a false dream.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Those billions who had to physically die over the last 4,000 years are asking the same thing, no? All thought they were being "yanked away", just when they thought they were needed the most. How is this generation any different, even if it is the last? Only Moses was yanked away, when literally, had he not disobeyed God, would have been used to defeat all those giants on the other side of the Jordan. No one is being yanked away. When time is up, it is up. One is not to take God's timing so personally.

Moses wasn't yanked away. He was forbidden to cross over Jordan for striking the rock at Meribah a 2nd time, instead of just speaking to it, failing to hallow God, and breaking the type of Christ revealed in striking the rock. He died on Mt. Nebo and was buried by God.

 

[michaelvpardo]

The church is not beheaded for their testimony. The whole point is that this is not the church. The church is still in Paradise. This is lost souls making a profession of faith in the very act of being beheaded. They were saved because, now they are dead. They were not Christians nor saints until the instant they lost their head. This is not accepting Christ to live. This is literally crucifying the flesh to become saved. Now we repent and accept the Atonement. During Satan's 42 months, the alter call is literally having one's head chopped off to become a follower of Christ.

So the church doesn't live and reign with christ for a thousand years, just the martyrs, and the church is judged at the 2nd resurrection?

 

[Timtofly]

No.
That idea is in your imagination and is never stated in the Bible.

Because that is our destiny and our great privilege; to be His people here on earth. Earning our rewards by proving our faith and trust in Him.
Escaping to a supposed 'paradise', is a false dream.

Hebrews 12:1

"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,"

Who is that great cloud of witnesses other than all those listed in Hebrews 11? That was 2,000 years ago. Millions of redeemed have joined them since the Cross.

 

[Timtofly]

Moses wasn't yanked away. He was forbidden to cross over Jordan for striking the rock at Meribah a 2nd time, instead of just speaking to it, failing to hallow God, and breaking the type of Christ revealed in striking the rock. He died on Mt. Nebo and was buried by God.

You don't think we today are constantly not disobeying God? I still am not seeing how leaving this earth, you call it being yanked away too soon.

 

[michaelvpardo]

No, I am saying the church has been in Paradise since the resurrection in 30AD. Their judgment was the Cross, and Jesus received that judgment, not His church.

Do you think Paradise empties and comes to earth at your pre-trib rapture?

The church who has been in Paradise since the Cross, remain there until after the 1,000 year reign. They come down in the New Jerusalem. That is Paradise after the New Heavens and New Earth. Some here claim those currently in Paradise are dead, and waiting for the resurrection at the GWT, after the 1,000 years, to have life.

There is no pre-tribulation rapture. The rapture occurs after the 1st resurrection and after the son of perdition is revealed, according to the scriptures.

 

[Timtofly]

So the church doesn't live and reign with christ for a thousand years, just the martyrs, and the church is judged at the 2nd resurrection?

I already told you the church was judged at the Cross. What other judgment do you need?

Israel reigns with Christ on earth per Daniel 9:24.

 

[Timtofly]

There is no pre-tribulation rapture. The rapture occurs after the 1st resurrection and after the son of perdition is revealed, according to the scriptures.

Then why did John see the Second Coming way before chapter 13? John gives the same Second Coming in Revelation 6 that Jesus did in Matthew 24.

 

[michaelvpardo]

You don't think we today are constantly not disobeying God? I still am not seeing how leaving this earth, you call it being yanked away too soon.

I said no such thing. How do you justify making an argument from things people don't say? Isn't that just arguing against your own imagination?
Try answering questions that are asked instead of putting words in other people's mouths and your own thoughts in their heads. All you're doing is answering your own misunderstanding of someone else's communication. That's extremely dishonest.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Then why did John see the Second Coming way before chapter 13? John gives the same Second Coming in Revelation 6 that Jesus did in Matthew 24.

Probably because the book of the Revelation is not all sequential. But like a newspaper story, describes the entire event and then goes on to separate visions about the parts of the event.
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. Revelation 6:12-14
Do you really believe this all occurs before the fall of Babylon the great? Revelation is a series of visions, not one continuous sequential vision. It can't be.

 

[michaelvpardo]

I already told you the church was judged at the Cross. What other judgment do you need?

Israel reigns with Christ on earth per Daniel 9:24.

So you reject the Bema seat judgment that Paul taught?

 

[michaelvpardo]

Hebrews 12:1

"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,"

Who is that great cloud of witnesses other than all those listed in Hebrews 11? That was 2,000 years ago. Millions of redeemed have joined them since the Cross.

You think paradise is an invisible place around us full of people? Are they resurrected in glorified bodies?
Do they sit and eat with Abraham as souls without bodies?

 

[michaelvpardo]

The church is not beheaded for their testimony. The whole point is that this is not the church. The church is still in Paradise. This is lost souls making a profession of faith in the very act of being beheaded. They were saved because, now they are dead. They were not Christians nor saints until the instant they lost their head. This is not accepting Christ to live. This is literally crucifying the flesh to become saved. Now we repent and accept the Atonement. During Satan's 42 months, the alter call is literally having one's head chopped off to become a follower of Christ.

This is very imaginative. So the call to repentance throughout the judgements has nothing to do with the gospel and that multitude of saints that have been washed in His blood aren't Christians at all?
All I have to do to live and reign with Christ is have my head lopped off and I'm instantly perfected?
Who wouldn't prefer that to a life of struggles, trials, and arguments with folks who don't understand scripture?