The Rapture: Too Good to Be True?

[michaelvpardo]

The Trumpets and Thunders are the final harvest. All of Adam's flesh will die, all 8 billion currently alive, one way or the other. It is the end of the 6,000 years of sin given to Adam and his descendants. This is the end. The church has had near 4,000 years to win the lost. That was not going to keep going on forever. Since Abraham, God has reached out to lost souls. This is the last generation.

Again, nonsense and fantasy. There is absolutely nothing in scripture that says all flesh will die in the judgment at Christ's return. On the contrary, the scriptures describe men being "as rare as the gold of Ophir " after the judgment and a Gentile population who will be ruled by God and punished with rain being withheld for failing to observe the feast of tabernacles (Zechariah 14.)

Your doctrine simply ignores multiple passages of scripture, and does violence to others by tearing them out of context to support a fiction.

 

[michaelvpardo]

So the army waiting at Armageddon to be destroyed is who or what? Jesus' Second Coming will surprise even those of the church waiting for Armageddon, evidently.

Very imaginative, but absent a sound hermeneutic.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Nope, 1 day. You don't think Satan has this figured out and is waiting for the go ahead from God?

No one knows how long the Trumpets and Thunders will take. John does not tell us. We are only given one 5 month period. Every one has been taught not to look for Jesus, but look for an AC. Can you give me one verse in Revelation that tells us to do that?

At the 6th Seal Jesus comes as Prince to sit on His glorious throne in Jerusalem. The one the FP and Satan will have during the 42 months. That throne is set up by God, not humans. And the 7th Trumpet is when this is all decided. But Jesus as Prince will have already sat in judgment over the sheep and goats, before Satan's 42 months. Revelation 11:1-2

"And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."

The Temple and throne is already set up before the 7th Trumpet even sounds. It was set up at the 6th Seal. When the 7th Trumpet sounds, God will either declare the harvest over, or extend it for 42 months. This extension is Daniel 9:27. The week of days of the 7th Trumpet is this set of 7. By Wednesday, Satan will know if he gets that 42 months of utter desolation where he and the FP will set up the AoD. It will not take him long to take over. Revelation 13:5-8

"And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

This is the only time of utter desolation per Daniel 9:27.

None of this has anything to do with the rapture fantasy. It's Tim LaHaye 's fiction.

 

[michaelvpardo]

There is no "Second Resurrection."

Produce any verse that clearly states "Second Resurrection."

Why would Jesus destroy all sinners and all wickedness if He planned to raise it/them back up anyway?

Matthew 24:29-31 only speaks of Jesus gathering His elect. Nothing at all about raising any sinful dead.

Isaiah 13:9-11 tells us Jesus destroys the world and all sinners.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 tells us that He raises the dead in Christ first, then those who are still alive at that time are caught up to Him in the sky. No mention at all of raising of the wicked.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 tells us when Jesus comes, He destroys everything and takes vengeance on them that know Him not. Nothing about raising them again after.

You can't carry, and serve, a doctrine that is based on a single passage.

You have stated this yourself.

Seriously? Have you read the book?
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. Revelation 20:5
How do the dead live again without a second resurrection?
It's not rocket science and why identify a first resurrection if there were no other resurrection. When your ability to reason is compromised by false doctrine, you suffer from strong delusion.

 

[GEN2REV]

Seriously? Have you read the book?
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. Revelation 20:5 How do the dead live again without a second resurrection?

You make this kind of condescending comment and all you're doing is repeatedly returning to the exact same 'loner' passage in Rev. 20. Literally the ONLY place in scripture where your doctrine is built-up from.

How can the dead live again? SIMPLE.

They are raised at Jesus' coming. No need whatsoever for an additional resurrection; and nothing in scripture anywhere that indicates there will be one.

It's not rocket science and why identify a first resurrection if there were no other resurrection.

I can't answer that question and it makes zero difference that I can't. The absolute FACT of the matter is that there is found nowhere in scripture any identification an additional resurrection but the sole event at Jesus' return.

When arguing for other points, you will happily embrace the truth that a single verse/passage does not a doctrine make.

When your ability to reason is compromised by false doctrine, you suffer from strong delusion.

Eggg-zactly!!!

God bless.

 

[Timtofly]

Armageddon is the name of the final battle, taken from the name of the hill Megiddo, but not the actual place He returns. Zechariah 14 tells us He returns to the Mount of Olives where He ascended from per Acts 1.

The one and ONLY return of Jesus is per the Zechariah 14 Scripture on the "day of the Lord", and that's it. That is when He gathers His Church also on that last day of this world. He does NOT come prior to the great trib. He showed His coming is AFTER the tribulation in His Olivet discourse which directly parallels what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Thessalonians 5. And that is... the 6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial timing, the time of the 'wrath' of 1 Thessalonians 5:9 which is God's Wrath on the last day.

I do allow for the "dragon" 42 months reign of Revelation 13. That happens on the FIRST part of the 6th Seal, which is about the stars of heaven falling to earth in relation to the 'untimely figs'. An untimely fig is a fig that grows in winter and falls off in the spring; it's an early fig. It represents the false-Messiah and his that come first, before Jesus returns. Starting at Revelation 6:14-17 is about Jesus' coming on the last day. The 42 months of the dragon's reign happens on that first part of the 6th Seal, and on the 6th Trumpet, and 6th Vial (the real meaning of 666).

No, Armageddon is written, because that is where the battle happens. You have the wrong place and time for the Second Coming.

If you pretend the 42 months happen in the first 4 Seals, your Chronological twist and turns are even worse than your 666 and 777.

How does Satan set up Christ's glorious throne and is allowed to sit on it before Jesus as Prince even gets to? So you place chapter 13 before chapter 6? Should chapters 17 and 18 then go before 4 and 5? Why has no one re-written Revelation yet so their chronology will make sense? They obviously think John was either writing in code to confuse Satan or someone. Yet no one has attempted to write it in the order they think it should be. Would that not make more sense to come to a consensus and just write Revelation "correctly" since this is the end times and people really need to know modern human's understanding instead of John's actual eye witness account?

 

[Timtofly]

I'm not assigning or even teaching anything, just addressing obvious disbelief.

You brought up the objection knowing it was not written about in Revelation, as a misdirection to your own messed up chronology of Revelation as John wrote it down. What does unbelief have to do with anything? I am supposed to accept your private opinion over John's written testimony?

You call my points error. Yet you have to turn Revelation upside down and shake it around a couple of times to get it to work for you. Yet you will not even point out yourself in Revelation where the bema seat is mentioned?

 

[Timtofly]

Again, nonsense and fantasy. There is absolutely nothing in scripture that says all flesh will die in the judgment at Christ's return. On the contrary, the scriptures describe me being "as rare as the gold of Ophir " after the judgment and a Gentile population who will be ruled by God and punished with rain being withheld for failing to observe the feast of tabernacles (Zechariah 14.)

Your doctrine simply ignores multiple passages of scripture, and does violence to others by tearing them out of context to support a fiction.

Matthew 13 is fiction? Have you removed that chapter from your copies of the Bible?

 

[Timtofly]

None of this has anything to do with the rapture fantasy. It's Tim LaHaye 's fiction.

Nope, it is the totally opposite of Tim LaHaye.

Your eschatology is Tim LaHaye's fiction and chronology.

 

[michaelvpardo]

You make this kind of condescending comment and all you're doing is repeatedly returning to the exact same 'loner' passage in Rev. 20. Literally the ONLY place in scripture where your doctrine is built-up from.

How can the dead live again? SIMPLE.

They are raised at Jesus' coming. No need whatsoever for an additional resurrection; and nothing in scripture anywhere that indicates there will be one.
I can't answer that question and it makes zero difference that I can't. The absolute FACT of the matter is that there is found nowhere in scripture any identification an additional resurrection but the sole event at Jesus' return.

When arguing for other points, you will happily embrace the truth that a single verse/passage does not a doctrine make.
Eggg-zactly!!!

God bless.

And all you do is stand on a fiction with 1 verse about the resurrection and gathering of the saints twisted to a false doctrine of cultic origin, while denying the plain meaning of scripture that contradicts your childish understanding.
Am I condescending? You bet I am. Grow up!

 

[michaelvpardo]

You brought up the objection knowing it was not written about in Revelation, as a misdirection to your own messed up chronology of Revelation as John wrote it down. What does unbelief have to do with anything? I am supposed to accept your private opinion over John's written testimony?

You call my points error. Yet you have to turn Revelation upside down and shake it around a couple of times to get it to work for you. Yet you will not even point out yourself in Revelation where the bema seat is mentioned?

Sorry, I just understand and believe the word of God, while you apparently believe only yourself.

 

[GEN2REV]

And all you do is stand on a fiction with 1 verse about the resurrection and gathering of the saints twisted to a false doctrine of cultic origin, while denying the plain meaning of scripture that contradicts your childish understanding.
Am I condescending? You bet I am. Grow up!

Oh all that insulting and condescending talk is just tactics they teach your team as an attempt to take people out of their center.

Doesn't work on me.

Just like sales training. "Get 'em emotional and you'll gain control over 'em."

Not so much. Scripture talks here.

What is the 1 verse you claim I'm standing on? I have a feeling it's more than one verse.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Oh all that insulting and condescending talk is just tactics they teach your team as an attempt to take people out of their center.

Doesn't work on me.

Just like sales training. "Get 'em emotional and you'll gain control over 'em."

Not so much. Scripture talks here.

What is the 1 verse you claim I'm standing on? I have a feeling it's more than one verse.

Maybe not, but the Holy Spirit has clearly confounded your ability to write cogent sentences. At least you can hit the edit button and rewrite something comprehensible.

There is only one verse that mentions any kind of rapture event and that is in first Thessalonians, in context the passage is about the resurrection.
Show me any verse that supports your fantasy and I'm able to give you a correct interpretation in context. There are no verses that support a pre-tribulation rapture that are not taken out of context. I'm sorry that you've based your faith on a false doctrine rather than Christ's death and resurrection, but that isn't my problem now, is it.
Have a nice life. Maybe I'll see you at the Bema seat of Christ (or maybe not.)

 

[Keraz]

People posting here should be much more careful about what they promote.
What I see here is a lot of confusion and wrong conclusions.

The problem of all the different ideas and theories, comes from God Himself, as He has made it very difficult for those who are wise and learned to understand the truths of prophecy.
Matthew 11:25 ...Father; You have hidden these things, [judgment and prophecy] from the wise and learned, [those brainwashed in Bible Colleges and seminaries] and revealed then to babes. [to the uneducated and open-minded people] Also Isaiah 29:9-12 says how people will be locked into their false beliefs.

God has done this in order to make what will happen a surprise to most and a great test of faith for everyone.
What we must keep in mind, is to stay firm in our faith and trust in the Lord for protection thru all that must happen, until Jesus Returns.

 

[michaelvpardo]

People posting here should be much more careful about what they promote.
What I see here is a lot of confusion and wrong conclusions.

The problem of all the different ideas and theories, comes from God Himself, as He has made it very difficult for those who are wise and learned to understand the truths of prophecy.
Matthew 11:25 ...Father; You have hidden these things, [judgment and prophecy] from the wise and learned, [those brainwashed in Bible Colleges and seminaries] and revealed then to babes. [to the uneducated and open-minded people] Also Isaiah 29:9-12 says how people will be locked into their false beliefs.

God has done this in order to make what will happen a surprise to most and a great test of faith for everyone.
What we must keep in mind, is to stay firm in our faith and trust in the Lord for protection thru all that must happen, until Jesus Returns.

Amen Keraz. Some people actually believe that they have eternal life through scholarship. The Pharisees certainly did.

I've found a local Baptist church where the Spirit of Christ is moving in the congregational worship. I had breakfast with the pastor yesterday and he's unoffended by differences in opinion, so I can serve with joy in the body and leave mature souls to argue with the carnal kiddies here. God bless your service and may He keep you close to Him in the trials to come. Amen

 

[GEN2REV]

Have a nice life. Maybe I'll see you at the Bema seat of Christ (or maybe not.)

Oh, don't be so dramatic, Michelle.

We'll be in agreement on a different thread topic by tomorrow.

I have a real church to minister to

Goodness, I hope not. You're teaching doctrines here based on single lone passages with no scripture to support them. You could do a lotta damage spreading that to an entire congregation.

I say hold off a while.

Sometimes it's better to wait.

James 3:1

 

[GRACE ambassador]

doctrines here based on single lone passages...Sometimes it's better to wait.

Amen! That is why I "took my time" (18 months) and found All the related
Passages of the Pre-TOJT Great GRACE Departure To GloryLand.
(The study has 18 sections...)

Also, I am a little hesitant to post it here, as it seems Most are only interested
in the quick (McDonald's-type meal of) a few lone passages, eh?

GRACE And Peace...

 

[GEN2REV]

Amen! That is why I "took my time" (18 months) and found All the related
Passages of the Pre-TOJT Great GRACE Departure To GloryLand.
(The study has 18 sections...)

Also, I am a little hesitant to post it here, as it seems Most are only interested
in the quick (McDonald's-type meal of) a few lone passages, eh?

GRACE And Peace...

Right.

What is TOJT?

 

[michaelvpardo]

Amen! That is why I "took my time" (18 months) and found All the related
Passages of the Pre-TOJT Great GRACE Departure To GloryLand.
(The study has 18 sections...)

Also, I am a little hesitant to post it here, as it seems Most are only interested
in the quick (McDonald's-type meal of) a few lone passages, eh?

GRACE And Peace...

Do you reject the two resurrections as well?

 

[Davy]

No, Armageddon is written, because that is where the battle happens. You have the wrong place and time for the Second Coming.

If that were true, then it would mean you are completely IGNORANT of the Zechariah 14 Scripture which shows the 'battle' on the "day of the Lord" that He fights involves His feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives, where He ascended from per Acts 1! So you ought to quit playing around, and check your preachers out, or at least open up Zechariah 14 and READ it!

If you pretend the 42 months happen in the first 4 Seals, your Chronological twist and turns are even worse than your 666 and 777.

The 42 months of the reign of the "dragon" is about the latter half of Daniel's symbolic "one week" (Daniel 9:27). It is also the 42 months the Gentiles are given to tread the holy city, per Revelation 11, on the 6TH TRUMPET - 2ND WOE period. It is also the 1260 days God's two witnesses are given to prophesy against the beast in Jerusalem before they are killed. Jesus comes on the 7th Trumpet - 3rd woe per that Chapter.

So go ahead, PROVE that Jesus does not come, with God's cup of wrath, on the 6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial. You like to do a lot of mouthing, so back it up with Scripture!