a non-eschatological Coming?

[Randy Kluth]

Must be why I don't have many friends.

It is still future. But it does not matter either way. At least I don't claim your eschatological belief will send you to sheol. It will not even leave you "behind". Some people will just be pleasantly surprised. And hopefully not too many disappointed at the Second Coming.

The AoD may or may not happen, but it is still future. What is it called when people look at the past only?

I was writing to ScottA--he tends to get a little threatening when one doesn't agree with him. I wasn't having a problem with you, nor do I necessarily have a problem with him---just trying to tone things down a bit. Our lives don't hang in the balance over whether the AoD is past or future! ;)

What is the AoD called if in the past: the same--the AoD. It's how we interpret it, and not in what it's called.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The AoD is/was not imminent. It was the last thing to happen right before the end. The end means what to you? The end is the last of the Gentile ingathering. There is no church on earth, after the Second Coming.

A lot of NT lingo comes from OT experiences with the nation Israel. Time periods were viewed as periods of desolation, as in when they failed God and they were delivered over to slavery for a time.

The present age is also a time of judgment and desolation for Israel. The Jews have gone through a long age of Diaspora--the worst punishment in their history. But they will recover when this "age of desolation" comes to an end. The desolation began with the destruction of the temple by the Romans. It ended Jewish religion and the Old Covenant of Law.

In the time Jesus said this Israel was still under the Law. At that time, their sins made judgment from God imminent, which is why Jesus focused on readiness spiritually instead of prognostication about when exactly the end would come.

 

[ScottA]

Why do you get so "touchy" when we disagree on something? Can't we have different views of things without being cast into Hell? ;) So what--you think the AoD is the crucifixion of Christ, and I think it is the Roman Army in 70 AD? Someone else thinks it is the Antichrist--so what? Let's just share why we believe what we believe, and let it go--let others decide if our arguments are convincing. Threatening "destruction" upon those who do not accept our interpretations will never convince a fellow Christian that it is God who is speaking to them!

I'm saying this here not because you're being so disagreeable in this particular post, but because in other posts this is what I've seen from you. Makes me kind of hesitate to state that I disagree with you, for fear that things are going to blow up! You do know that to suggest someone is "missing the mark" can be likely accusing them of sin, don't you?

I am all for "discussions" and even thoughts and theories. It is false claims and preaching before knowing the truth that I react to this way.

Much of what I find myself doing here, is not discussion, it's correction. With all the wild and varied claims I am moved in the Spirit...because the time is well advanced. Some draw cold, some get hot. I get firm.

If you don't know something as say so, or pose things as questions, this will never happen again. I promise.

 

[bbyrd009]

The Tower of Babel was designed to confuse. The Gift of the Interpretation of Tongues may the reconciliation of differences by reference to spiritual unity through the word of God. The lesson may be, God doesn't want unity on earth via the Carnal Man. But He can bypass our national and ethnic diversity through spiritual unity, right?

always worked for me anyway :)

i think this is also reflected in sheep and goats, which i doubt are correctly labeled by most...ha, clergy, even
he who says that he knows anything, doesn't

 

[bbyrd009]

And based on Scripture, what I believe is true.

a singularly dangerous declaration, imo

Well I won't stand before gods based on your opinion, but what the Word says! If I am missing something- show me, otherwise your prepubescent insults and vagueries mean little.

ah well what i meant was…are you sure your testimony is valid there?

 

[Randy Kluth]

I am all for "discussions" and even thoughts and theories. It is false claims and preaching before knowing the truth that I react to this way.

Much of what I find myself doing here, is not discussion, it's correction. With all the wild and varied claims I am moved in the Spirit...because the time is well advanced. Some draw cold, some get hot. I get firm.

If you don't know something as say so, or pose things as questions, this will never happen again. I promise.

Yes, I understand--I've been on chat forums like this for about 20 years now. The biggest problem I have is with the emotionalism involved in disagreement--lots of insulting commentary. But that comes with the territory. It seems I'm getting "cancelled" every time I turn around, simply for stating my honest opinion. I think the Lord's trying to teach me wisdom, but I'm just not getting my foot into the shoe yet. ;)

As long as you don't feel you're God's "prophet" to everybody else, we won't have a problem from my pov. But for your sake I can only do the best I can. I'm not a scholar, but I'm pretty well-informed, or if I don't know something, I can learn things pretty quickly.

I've been studying Bible Prophecy for about 50 years, so obviously, my views on various subjects have changed numerous times. It's a process of growth in Christ, as well as some "trial and error." Take care....
Randy

 

[Randy Kluth]

always worked for me anyway :)

i think this is also reflected in sheep and goats, which i doubt are correctly labeled by most...ha, clergy, even
he who says that he knows anything, doesn't

I have a whole "book" of comments on that subject. Not a literal book, but a *lot to say.* ;)

 

[ScottA]

Yes, I understand--I've been on chat forums like this for about 20 years now. The biggest problem I have is with the emotionalism involved in disagreement--lots of insulting commentary. But that comes with the territory. It seems I'm getting "cancelled" every time I turn around, simply for stating my honest opinion. I think the Lord's trying to teach me wisdom, but I'm just not getting my foot into the shoe yet. ;)

As long as you don't feel you're God's "prophet" to everybody else, we won't have a problem from my pov. But for your sake I can only do the best I can. I'm not a scholar, but I'm pretty well-informed, or if I don't know something, I can learn things pretty quickly.

I've been studying Bible Prophecy for about 50 years, so obviously, my views on various subjects have changed numerous times. It's a process of growth in Christ, as well as some "trial and error." Take care....
Randy

Thanks Randy.

But I wouldn't rule out prophets. If God can make a donkey talk... Not that l am claiming to be one, I'm not. My salvation prayer to God was rather for "answers"...and He answered and I was caught up in the Spirit. He still gives gifts, "some prophets." Mine was knowledge. As a result, I do not dabble in opinions, but freely give that which has been given to me.

 

[bbyrd009]

opinions are all i got :)

 

[Randy Kluth]

Thanks Randy.

But I wouldn't rule out prophets. If God can make a donkey talk... Not that l am claiming to be one, I'm not. My salvation prayer to God was rather for "answers"...and He answered and I was caught up in the Spirit. He still gives gifts, "some prophets." Mine was knowledge. As a result, I do not dabble in opinions, but freely give that which has been given to me.

Yes, I believe in the gift of prophecy, and not just as the Pentecostals usually use it. We are to speak as "the oracles of God" when so inclined. It does take time, though, to know when we are being moved by the Lord and when we just *think* we're being moved by the Lord. ;)

I've had it very rough in the last few years in the area of *knowing* God's prophetic word to me. This is true particularly in the area of politics. I believed a lot of "prophets" who claimed Trump was going to win the election in the U.S. That didn't happen. I don't doubt the sincerity of these Christian leaders, but quite frankly, they were wrong!

I also many years ago followed David Wilkerson's "visions." Apparently many of his "prophecies" didn't come true, although many of them did. This is very confusing to me. It may be that he had an initial legitimate vision that was real, and then later began to get "too comfortable" with stating prophetically only what he believed the Bible taught.

When Wilkerson began to declare America was "Mystery Babylon," I wrote a letter to him and challenged him on that. He got a little defensive in his reply, stating that he was not saying America was the literal fulfillment of Mystery Babylon in the Revelation, but was only a "kind of Mystery Babylon" in the Revelation.

There are way too many puffed up proclaimers of what God's prophetic word is, as if what they believe Bible prophecy teaches is in fact "prophecy." There is a difference between expressing our conviction of what Bible prophecy says and actually prophesying. Do you agree?

 

[Randy Kluth]

opinions are all i got :)

Yea, we're to "study to show ourselves approved." That means God wants us to use our minds, and not just give us answers to a test by kibitzing. ;) God never made speaking to us a means of living life by paranormal automatic writing and the like. He speaks to our conscience and informs us what His love is so that we may choose how to apply that love with our family and neighbors.

There are times when God may direct us more specifically, as opposed to just exercising free moral judgments. For example, we may be enlightened about who we were created to be, and so choose the right jobs to do. We may obtain understanding about relations with others, their weaknesses and needs, and so choose to help or to defer. Or God may simply, for His own reasons, direct us to go to Africa as a missionary.

But on an everyday level, He just wants us to be His kids, so He can take pride in our decisions, as we look to His love as a motive for our every decision. So I agree--most everything, though having a prophetic spirit behind it, is not essentially "prophecy." That has a place, but is much less common. Most often we are giving responsible, informed beliefs about what the Scriptures say, and are not actually "prophesying." As we get more mature in the faith, I would expect, though, to be able to hear God better in our judgments of what God's word says.

 

[ScottA]

There are way too many puffed up proclaimers of what God's prophetic word is, as if what they believe Bible prophecy teaches is in fact "prophecy." There is a difference between expressing our conviction of what Bible prophecy says and actually prophesying. Do you agree?

I do.

I call this the limit of "belief", as compared with "knowing." Again, opinions are just what people do not know, but only believe.

Believing is great--but right or wrong, it is the evidence of one being on a path to just what it is they believe. That is why it is important to begin with the elementary principles of Christ, that by believing, we are in His care for the gaining of all truth by the Holy Spirit of whom He sends. To the contrary, it is speculations, conjecture, and following those who dabble in them, that are often dangerous side trips leading to destruction.

And we see so much of it

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yes and no. Yes, interpreting dreams is not the same thing as interpreting tongues. But no, I do believe dreams were given as a gift to edify Israel.

Paul used the OT example of Israel's capitulation to enemies with foreign tongues to explain that NT tongues is the capitulation of our own carnal selves to heavenly language. We turn our carnal selves over to God so that we speak and act like children of God.

So here, the OT example of tongues is indeed very different from the NT version of the same. You're right about that.

but dreams was not given as a gift ministry as the NT gifts are. They simply occurred as God desired. Teh gifts in the NT are to be continously used as one has opportunity.

Well trhere is tongues of angels and a prayer tongue, but by far the super majority of tongues as exemplified in Scripture were to speak foreign languages to give the good news!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Initial Birth Pains that herald the 70 AD judgment. Roman stirrings and signs of divine displeasure.
4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

these cannot be birth pains for the 70 Ad destruction of the temple. Why?

1. Nothing in verse 4 happened! the first century saw the ME and Europe basking under the Pax Romana.

2. Verse 9-13 This did not happen even yet! Verse 9 has been true of believers in all ages of the church age, but 10 is unfulfilled, 11 is ongoing but not consequential prior to 70AD, 12. The church was growing rapidly and on fire! Teh gospel of the kingdom has not been prfeached yet. this is not the gospel of salvation and is not to save souls, but is a witness to the world that Jesus is returning. This happens during the 70th week of Daniel.

The fall of the Temple by the Roman Army, the AoD. (same as Matt 24.15-27)
20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

this occurred in 70 Ad but not by the AOD. He has yet to appear. When you look closely, the fleeings in Luke and Matthew are for two different reasons and two different conclusions.

Christ comes with his Kingdom to end the Jewish Punishment of the NT Age. (same as Matt 24.29-31)
25 “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken.
27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

Not to end the punishment but to save the nation! that is the fulfilment of teh New Covenant in Jer. 31.

The answer to *when* the Temple will fall--in this generation. (same as Matt 24.32-35)
29 He told them this parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30 When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near.

32 “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass awa

This is for when Jesus would return, not for 70 AD. 70 Ad the kingdom to come was not near by anystretch of th eimagination.

The answer to *when* Christ will come--it is not known. Judgment cannot be anticipated except through righteous living. (same as Matt 24.36-51)
34 “Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. 35 For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

These verses are about the rapture. For the rapture will hand in a moment , in the blink of an eye! Jesus return will not be like a thief in the night, but like lightning in MAtt. and every eye will see Him in REv. 1

Hope these help you ponder the Scriptures.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

ah well what i meant was…are you sure your testimony is valid there?

Before teh throne of God? Absolutely! It is the testimony of Gods extraordinary grace and mercy that took me from teh depths of sin and led me to His paths of righteousness.

 

[bbyrd009]

Before teh throne of God? Absolutely! It is the testimony of Gods extraordinary grace and mercy that took me from teh depths of sin and led me to His paths of righteousness.

well, im referring to your testimony though right; and it is after all about yourself?

what I believe is true

 

[Ronald Nolette]

well, im referring to your testimony though right; and it is after all about yourself?

No it is about what god can do in an individuals life! Just because it concer45ns my own life does not negate that the glory belongs to HIm!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Bbyrd quotes this:

↑
what I believe is true


A terrible cut and paste job to place my words out of their context to try to slander a believer.

 

[bbyrd009]

Bbyrd quotes this:

↑
what I believe is true


A terrible cut and paste job to place my words out of their context to try to slander a believer.

?
either your testimony here is “what i believe is true,” or it is not, yes? So im not getting where any slander comes in at all, sorry

 

[Ronald Nolette]

?
either your testimony here is “what i believe is true,” or it is not, yes? So im not getting where any slander comes in at all, sorry

Well my personal testimony is true, but you cut and pasted the "what I believe is trtue " statement from somewhere else for some unknown purpose.

And my personal testimony is not a case of something I believe or not- it is history.