The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Ronald D Milam]

10 actually IS a specific number.

The only point at issue between you and I is whether it means what it says, or whether it means something else. How long was Jesus in the heart of the earth? How may disciples? It goes on and on. We don't need to though.

Much love!

Yes, it specifically means COMPLETENESS. The 10 Commandments is a STAND IN for ALL of God's laws. In Rev. 2:10 we see this.

10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

So, the church of Smyrna will have tribulation 10 days, DO YOU NOT GET THIS ALSO? The Church of Smyrna will have troubles for the whole complete Church Age period.

The 7 Eyes and 7 Spirts a d 7 Churches are all completion also. They are divine completion however. God SEES ALL God is OMNIOPOTENT, and God has 7 representing His COMPLETE Church Age Period on this earth.

Thus anytime, and on mean anytime we get 7 x 10 its an added emphasis on God's Completion Plans. Whenever God says 7000, or 1000 or 10,000 x 10,000 He is is telling us this is His COMPLETION PLANS and He s nit going to allow Satan to know the number thereof, nor is He going to bog down our minds by saying 1,239,942 He is just going to use the number 10, or 10 x 7. or 10,000 x 10,000. Its kind of odd what you cant understand God is always using perfectly rounded numbers, :) but yet you can't understand those numbers have a meaning, I mean there is never a 1,572 kind if number, its always a number that comes out as 10 x something. But yet you don't get it. That's on you brother. And by the way, the Universe is 13.7 billion Years old and created in "7 days", which means 7 YOWMS which means 7 Time Periods.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Did Paul count himself to be harpazod when he said a falling away must happen first and the man of sin must be revealed knowing neither had happened but will in its own time?

Depends: first person = "WE which are alive and remain"? or:

second person = "YE which are alive and remain"?​

Paul wrote in First Person, but we should read it as Second Person? Why not read it the way written, as First Person?

Amen! The Way "It Is Written," as we should ALL Scripture:

Part I Great GRACE Departure

Thus, "WE" is Paul Including himself in, his, And (IF we "follow Paul as OUR
pattern" = 1 Timothy 1:16; 1 Corinthians 4:16, 11:1), Also, our Expectation
of an Imminent Departure, meaning:

"could Occur At ANY Moment, NO signs needed," Correct?:

Now, this would Eliminate the interpretation of "falling away" as being
"great apostasy," ie:

"Great Departure from the faith" and "the Wicked one being
revealed" BEFORE "The Day Of CHRIST," which the Thessalonians
erroneously thought (And were troubled by "false words/letters"?),
was "at hand" (meaning they were "left behind"), Correct?

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto Him, That ye be not soon shaken in
mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from
us, as that The Day Of CHRIST is at hand. Let no man deceive you by
any means: for That Day shall not come, except there come a falling
away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"
(2 Thessalonians_2:1-3)​

Can this Elimination be Further Clarified By Scripture? Let's see:

"Departing from the faith"? CHRIST, Through Paul, Revealed:

1Ti_4:1 "Now The Spirit Speaketh Expressly, that in the latter times some shall
depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"

So, Precious friend, @marks and I would probably both ask the same question
here: How is this a GREAT (Many?) "departure from the faith (apostasy),"
When God Said: "some"?

You do know that Scripture Says "that a GREAT apostasy
Already Occurred in Paul's day," Correct?:

2Ti_1:15 "This thou knowest, that ALL they which are in Asia be
turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes." Correct?

Wait, "Great apostasy" already occurred, and Paul is telling The Thessalonians
that another "small apostasy" has to occur? Will the "post-tribbers" now Change
their theology? But, that's not necessary, since, now, This does make sense:

"falling away" = Great GRACE Departure, from the earth, to Heaven,
Where It Is: "The Day Of CHRIST (Day Of LIGHT!)." Can this be
Scripturally Confirmed? We believe so:

1) Paul's Entire outlook for The Body Of CHRIST, Is Heavenly!
(Romans - Philemon) vs Israel's outlook/hope is for the earth!

2) Paul Clearly tells us to be "looking, watching, and waiting" For The HOLY
ONE, The LORD JESUS CHRIST! vs "looking for the Wicked man of sin"

3) The Day Of CHRIST is NOT "the same as" The Day Of The LORD!
ie: .......LIGHT........... Is NOT "the same as" ............Darkness!

continued Biblical Confirmation in Part II...

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Part II Great GRACE Departure

1) Paul's Entire outlook for The Body Of CHRIST, Is Heavenly!
(2 Corinthians 5:1-2; Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 1:20: Ephesians 2:6;
Philippians 3:20; Colossians 1:5; 2 Timothy 4:18)

2) Paul Clearly tells us to be "looking, watching, and waiting"
For The HOLY ONE, The LORD JESUS CHRIST!
(2 Thessalonians 2:1; Romans 8:18-19; Romans 8:23; Romans 8:25;
1 Corinthians 1:7; Ephesians 6:12-18; Philippians 3:20; Colossians 4:1-3;
1 Thessalonians 1:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:5-11; Titus 2:13)

3) Day Of CHRIST vs Day Of The LORD!
----------------- { Also The Day Of God! }:

Obeying God's Command In 2 Timothy 2:15, we have This!:

According To the preaching of JESUS CHRIST, In The Revelation
Of The Mystery! (Romans - Philemon!) = "The Day Of CHRIST!"

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

According to God's "Prophetic" Program in: Daniel,
Matthew, And Revelation! = "The Day Of The LORD!"

q: WHY would anyone In The Body of CHRIST,
"Today, desire" The Day Of The LORD?:

When God Inspired HIS "prophet" Amos to pen THIS!:

"WOE Unto you that desire The Day Of The LORD!
To what end is it for you?...

...The Day Of The LORD Is Darkness, and not light...Shall not
The Day Of The LORD be Darkness, And Not light? Even Very
Dark, And No brightness in it?" (Amos 5:18, 20)

continued Biblical Clarification in Part III...

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Part III Great GRACE Departure

Day of CHRIST vs Day Of The LORD!

E-x-p-a-n-d-e-d For Clarification!:

According To the preaching of JESUS CHRIST, In The Revelation
Of The Mystery! (Romans - Philemon!), "The Day Of CHRIST!" =

The "Judgment Day" Of The Heavenly (see 1 above) Body Of CHRIST,
who Will Be Taken Home To Heaven { LIGHT! }, For "shame... and/or:
...rewards, rejoicing, And reigning!" (1 Corinthians 3:8-15) Amen?:

“That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit
or by word, nor by letter as from us, as that The Day Of CHRIST is at
hand." (2 Thessalonians 2:2)

“Who Shall Confirm you Unto the end, that ye may be blameless
In The Day Of our LORD JESUS CHRIST!" (1 Corinthians 1:8)

“To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh,
that the spirit may be saved In The Day Of The LORD JESUS!"
(1 Corinthians 5:5)

“As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing,
even as ye also are ours in the In The Day Of The LORD JESUS!"
(2 Corinthians 1:14)

“Being confident Of This Very Thing, That HE Which Hath Begun A
Good Work In you, Will Perform It Until The Day Of JESUS CHRIST!"
(Philippians 1:6)

“That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye
may be sincere and without offence till The Day Of CHRIST!"
(Philippians 1:10)

“Holding forth The WORD Of Life; that I may rejoice in
The Day Of CHRIST that I have not run in vain, neither
laboured in vain." (Philippians 2:16)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

According To "Prophecy!":

The Day Of The LORD / "earthly" Israel / nations! in judgment /
wrath / battle / destruction / terror / DARKNESS / horror / pain! =

--------------------- Time Of JACOB's Trouble!!:

“The Day Of The LORD!” is common throughout the Old Testament.
The prophets referred constantly to it. In the New Testament,
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, Paul, and Peter referred to It! Some of
the Many Passages are the following:

Isaiah 2:11-12, 17, 13:4-6, 9, 13, 34:8; Jeremiah 46:10; Ezekiel 13:5, 30:3;
Joel 1:15, 2:1, 11, 31, 3:14; Amos 5:18, 20; Obadiah 1:15; Zephaniah 1:7, 14;
Zechariah 14:1; Malachi 4:5; Matthew 24:1-51; Acts 2:20; Romans 2:5;
1 Thessalonians 5:2; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 1:10;

compare: "That Day" in Isaiah 2:11, 17, 20, 3:18.

"That Day" is a time of terror, darkness, and wrath. It is a
“day of visitation” (Isaiah 10:3), a “Day of the Wrath Of
The LORD!” (Ezekiel 7:19), THE “Great Day Of The LORD!”
(Zephaniah 1:14)
-------------
Finally, there is Also: "The Day Of God!":

"Looking for and hasting unto The Coming Of The Day Of God,
wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the
elements shall melt with fervent heat?" (2 Peter 3:12)
---------
Conclusion, only one question: Should God's "children of Light"
(Ephesians 5:8; 1 Thessalonians 5:5) In The Body Of CHRIST,
Really prefer darkness Over LIGHT?

Thus, we believe, with Paul, that OUR Departure To Glory Is
IMMINENT (Could happen At Any Moment, No signs required)!
---------
Again, God Admonishes ALL diligent Bible students:

"Prove ALL things; hold fast That Which Is Good!"
(1 Thessalonians 5:21)

Precious friend, we pray this is an Encouragement to you, and
any questions or problems, please let us know.

GRACE And Peace...

 

[Naomi25]

Because there were no personal attack toward YOU, as YOU did toward me.

You may have taken it as a personal attack…I suppose that’s entirely up to you.
However, I would suggest that questioning what and why on earth you would respond as you did was a valid line of reasoning…even if you don’t agree.
When a person seems to purposely side-step the clear intent of a post…even after that intent has been given again…specified again…with biblical verses…then one may be excused for feeling like it’s not the intent or point that matters…it’s a personal sticking point with how things are labelled.

.

I find scripture sufficient to “track down”, who, when, why, an individual is or is not saved, for ones own benefit. It that is a waste of time to you, so be it.

And yet, when I provided plenty of scripture to support my reasons for saying that ‘believers’ are those in Christ…you felt the need/justification to…again…dismiss my clear intent and give me a lecture.
Perhaps you ought to put in your tag line what it is you DO find acceptable to label a ‘Christian’ as. Because if one must always be saying “those who have truly believed in Jesus and publicly confessed to such and has also received the Spirit as proof of that belief”…well…that just gets tiring to write again and again.

Anyway…I’m done with this. Have so much better things to do with my time and energy. Label stuff how you choose…but don’t tell me what I did or did not mean.

 

[Naomi25]

I've been thinking a lot about the comparison to concluding we have a Triune God. Nothing comes out and says that. And there are quite a few places that would seem very much to say otherwise. Yet we've come to conclude our God is Triune, even though no one can even really understand what that means or how that is, still, we embrace, we adore our God in this way, because we have no other sound choice.

We have all these passages which make such clear statements, "The Lord our God is One", "before Abraham was, I AM", so many more, and we simply believe them. We believe they are all true as stated, and in believing them, we know God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, and these are One God. It's debated endlessly, but we know it's true. Because we believe the accuracy of the statements recorded in the Bible.

This is like that to me. Endlessly debated, but when I accept them all as valid Scripture to be read as written, this is how I reach my conclusion of pre-trib timing.

I don't have an issue with Jesus gathering Israel to the land, that was prophesied. I don't have an issue with Jesus gathering the gentiles, and pronouncing judgment on them for their works, because that too was prophesied. Jesus is prophesying with greater detail, adding to what had been prophesied in the OT.

I don't have an issue with Jesus pronouncing some righteous and some wicked based on their works. There's a lot more behind that statement, but simply put, that's not the only thing that looks very different in looking at Scriptures of that time and the current time. Imagine, 2 OT type prophets in Jerusalem, calling down plagues, what will they be saying?

This will be the first prophetic revelation to Israel in 2000 years. Can you imagine? We are saved by the preaching of the Gospel, and all Israel will be saved . . . when they see Him they will mourn for Him as for an Only Son. And the redeemer comes to Jacob . . . no, that's not the only difference at all.

Anyway, I'm hoping this gives you greater insight into how I approach this.

Much love!

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on our respective hermeneutical interpretations.
But thank you for taking the time to chat on it and explain as you have.

 

[marks]

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on our respective hermeneutical interpretations.
But thank you for taking the time to chat on it and explain as you have.

I think we all run into these little "impasses" in our own minds, and each of us looks to the Lord, and considers how to undetstand something. I always appreciate when someone will take this kind of time with me that I can better understand their POV, and I appreciate your kindness!

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

Why not believe what you read?

And besides . . . look at the Biblical numerologists. How many reach the same conclusions? What I've seen over the years are general ideas that sound the same, but when you get into each person's details on how they decode the Bible, they're all over the map.

Much love!

because many are trying to DECODE the bible by carnal wisdom . WE BOTH KNOW that WONT WORK .
Too many like being exalted and looking wise and sounding wise .
I say simply trust in CHRIST and GOD shall reveal what we need to know .
Folks that use carnal wisdom and techniques of men are never gonna truly know the rightly , RIGHTLY divided word
nor will they truly understand other things . I say , as children let us feast upon the bible for ourselves .
You would be amazed at how simple things would have been had we done this for ourselves .
Too many sat under this teaching or that teaching and men twisted scrips to fit their understanding .
It wont work . Let us as children return to the bible . Watch how simple things would be .

 

[Taken]

You may have taken it as a personal attack…I suppose that’s entirely up to you.
However, I would suggest that questioning what and why on earth you would respond as you did was a valid line of reasoning…even if you don’t agree.
When a person seems to purposely side-step the clear intent of a post…even after that intent has been given again…specified again…with biblical verses…then one may be excused for feeling like it’s not the intent or point that matters…it’s a personal sticking point with how things are labelled.

Using Biblical text to support your belief is one thing.
Peppering your response with personal disparaging comments is making your Biblical text convoluted.

 

[marks]

because many are trying to DECODE the bible by carnal wisdom . WE BOTH KNOW that WONT WORK .
Too many like being exalted and looking wise and sounding wise .
I say simply trust in CHRIST and GOD shall reveal what we need to know .
Folks that use carnal wisdom and techniques of men are never gonna truly know the rightly , RIGHTLY divided word
nor will they truly understand other things . I say , as children let us feast upon the bible for ourselves .
You would be amazed at how simple things would have been had we done this for ourselves .
Too many sat under this teaching or that teaching and men twisted scrips to fit their understanding .
It wont work . Let us as children return to the bible . Watch how simple things would be .

That's exactly what I've found. I look into the Bible itself, in through it's words, I find my Creator.

Much love!

 

[Taken]

That's exactly what I've found. I look into the Bible itself, in through it's words, I find my Creator.

Much love!

Yes...the Creator.....Created us without our permission, request, input.
However it is the Creator who is also the Maker....NOW....
we have our options, to ask, to request....that;
He MAKE us, wholly, whole and holy....and WITH us forever.

Praise God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

The Pre-Trib Rapture
OP ^

Amen,
Blessed with Gods sanctification to not be subject to wrath!

Praise and Glory to our Great and Faithful God,
Taken

 

[No Pre-TB]

I'm curious . . . do you equate someone's conclusion that the rapture of the church will be pre-trib, do you equate that with an unwillingness to suffer or die for the sake of Christ? Is that your idea?

Much love!

No, I don't believe that at all. I have spoken to some Pre-Tb believers which equate that theory with an unwillingness (but I wouldn't say its Pre-Tb specific, but really anyone may have that thought), but most believers that I have delt with would still die and/or suffer for Christ. I don't think there is any theory really that a true believer wouldn't do those things for Him. When we talk about the differences of wrath and persecution (tribulation), I think that is the great error. It is not if Pre-TB would say they don't think they may not endure tribulation, as people do in the world today in various countries. But I have met plenty that say we won't endure the "great" tribulation as if that is something different, they call wrath. That gross error using the 2 words as a synonym for each other is incorrect (not a belief of my own, but the actual words are completely different). The word for "great" only means widespread. The difference from having the same tribulations against Christians today in various countries and having it more widespread through much of the globe. But the word never changes. It is still that feeling of being "hemmed in" with a feeling of no escape. Sadly, arguments happen because of the choice of word people use. It can put Pre-TB believers on defense and can put others on the attack. Neither should happen. We should be able to talk peacefully about these issues, what scripture says (even if it goes against our theory) and learn from each other without the feeling of someone's prideful attitude shoving scripture down another's throat. In the latter, no one learns anything with that stumbling block.

 

[No Pre-TB]

This is something else I find a lot, that non-pretribbers will most often hold that Israel and the church the same, while pre-tribbers hold that Israel is a chosen nation to whom God will keep certain promises that do not relate to gentiles, while the church is neither Jew nor Gentile, but a new man.

Much love!

Obviously, you know that answer. Pre-Tb centers around Dispensationalism. Or perhaps the other way around, what really came first? The idea Israel and the Church are separate, and God deals with each separately. On the other hand, the idea that Paul tells us that we are spiritual Jews, of the circumcision, grafted into Israel (we don't supersede Israel) thereby we become part of it. There are not 2 trees, but 1 tree. And we are grafted into an already existing Israel. Not flesh and blood but spiritual Israel, for flesh and blood will not inherit the Kingdom of God. And not all Israel, before we were grafted, was removed and broken off for there was a remnant. We are grafted into them so that the saying "all Israel will be saved" will come true when the fulness of the Gentiles enters. And where we read the saying of Lo-ammi, we became his people who were not his people yet that Ch. spoke of Judah and Israel. More could be spoken on the subject from both parts, but not really a subject I care to discuss right now. I just wanted to reply to your question when I had time. There are plenty of discussions on this topic already all over the forum. I will end with this; it is my opinion one keeps you locked into a specific theory and the other doesn't. And if we are to understand Paul correctly, how do we graft ourselves into an existing tree and still remain 2 separate trees? I won't look for a response to that, just something I think everyone needs to think about.

 

[marks]

No, I don't believe that at all.

That's good to know!

Much love!

 

[marks]

I will end with this; it is my opinion one keeps you locked into a specific theory and the other doesn't.

Why have specific theories? What is it about being "locked into a theory"? Of course that doesn't help! But that's not the issue, we needn't concern ourselves with theories, only what the Bible does and does not say.

I hold that God will restore Israel to their land, all of them redeemed, when Jesus comes. I believe this is a promise made to Israel, and that God will keep it. I believe this because the Bible seems to make a really big deal of God keeping those promises.

Do you believe that God will keep those promises, as written? Or no?

Much love!

 

[marks]

the idea that Paul tells us that we are spiritual Jews, of the circumcision, grafted into Israel (we don't supersede Israel) thereby we become part of it.

And while many do hold this view, Paul didn't actually say that. What he said is often, and often not, interpreted that way, but it's not actually what he said.

Much love!

 

[marks]

And if we are to understand Paul correctly, how do we graft ourselves into an existing tree and still remain 2 separate trees? I won't look for a response to that, just something I think everyone needs to think about.

Isreal is not the tree. Why is there neither greek nor Jew in Christ? There are natural branches, and wild branches. The ones having received covenantal relationship with God, and ones who had not. In Christ all are brought into covenantal relationship with God, but not in the previous way, from the two, He has made one new man. That new man is not an Israelite.

And still, when Jesus comes, He's going to send His angels to regather all of His chosen nation back to their promised land, not leaving a single one of them in gentile lands, Just like He promised.

Call it theory, call it dispensationalism, call it any label you like, I just call it what the Bible says. If it makes someone change their theory, well, I'm alway open to changing my ideas as I learn more of what the Bible says.

Much love!

 

[ewq1938]

That new man is not an Israelite.

He is an Israelite and the tree is a symbol for true Israel, the Israel that believes in God the Father and his Son the Messiah. All believers may join that nation, all being branches from other Olive trees.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Why have specific theories? What is it about being "locked into a theory"? Of course that doesn't help! But that's not the issue, we needn't concern ourselves with theories, only what the Bible does and does not say.

I hold that God will restore Israel to their land, all of them redeemed, when Jesus comes. I believe this is a promise made to Israel, and that God will keep it. I believe this because the Bible seems to make a really big deal of God keeping those promises.

Do you believe that God will keep those promises, as written? Or no?

Much love!

Marks, you’re arguing with me because I used the word theories and yes, we should just follow God’s word. But every theory one follows they say IS God’s word. They all cannot be correct. So when we talk about theories, it’s only in a difference of eschatological sense. It’s not about not following God’s true word.

I believe he always keeps his promise. But how we understand it, we may differ. And on that subject I’m not going to get into here.