a non-eschatological Coming?

[bbyrd009]

Daniel 7 says that Jesus is going to heaven on the clouds not coming to the earth

zing!

 

[amigo de christo]

How could Christ establish His Kingdom on earth without coming to earth? You have misunderstood and misrepresented Daniel 7 (which ties into the rest of the book of Daniel. There is no such nonsense as a "non-eschatological" coming.

Not only that LOOK at what it leads and will lead too . THEM to believe that CHRIST had came to the earth
and is working through men to build this end time we are one world for peace and safety .
GUESS WHO is gonna do that . A hint , WHEN we say CHRIST , PUT AN ANTI in front of that .
IF folks dont realize there truly is a literal second coming
then they can and do fall for a lie by which men , kings and a king can lead the world right into .
Let us stay glued to the bible . THE early church LOOKED forward to HIS SECOND COMING
and event paul makes very clear in two places . AND notice , PAUL was already SPIRIT filled
and when HE spoke of a second coming , IT was future and it was very literal . For he too
spoke of those who had already fallen asleep , which meant they were already dead
THEN HE SPEAKS about not sorrowing and that BOTH WE and THEM shall be caught up UNTO THE LORD at HIS COMING .
ENOCH ITS SO REAL and the true lambs LOOK FORWARD TOO IT . JESUS even said and warned
say not in your hearts MY LORD delays HIS COMING . MANY already have . WE WONT GO DOWN THAT ROAD .
SO allow me to tell everyone , what i KNOW you already KNOW
THE COMING OF JESUS DRAWS NIGH . ITS real and its coming . It has not yet happened , BUT SOON WILL .

 

[Marty fox]

How could Christ establish His Kingdom on earth without coming to earth? You have misunderstood and misrepresented Daniel 7 (which ties into the rest of the book of Daniel. There is no such nonsense as a "non-eschatological" coming.

Regardless Daniel 7:13 clearly states that Jesus is going to heave not to the earth as He approaches the ancient of days (the Father) and entered into His presence.

The Kingdom established on the earth is Jesus and the Holy Spirit living inside of us while we are on the earth. I believe that Daniel 7:13 happened when Jesus ascended back unto heaven in Acts chapter 1

 

[Randy Kluth]

I had no idea what you believed or did not believe . I was simply responding to the other person .

Okay. I was just concerned that my views get so far out ahead of me that I won't know how to respond anymore! ;) te entiendas?

I am curious though about one thing . And its very important you answer this question .
Please tell me you do realize that the social all inclusive gospel is a lie and deadly dangerous .

Of course I realize that. Declaring the importance of social justice is entirely biblical. But to do so to the neglect of Salvation is heretical. It's Pelagianism, which is an historical heresy. I'm not spouting liberal theology, amigo!

You can put my heart a bit at ease by letting me know . That is one super fast spreading gospel and its a lie from hades too .
Just in case you have not heard of it , its all tied into the big UNITY we are one movement .
Its blended into it . Its more on the liberal side but the conservative churches have sucked it up and bought it as well .
I truly dont know whether or not you believe it . I am simply letting all that has breath know its false and to flee it
and anyone attached to it . Warn the peoples and let us point them to the biblical Christ and all bible sound doctrine .

We are on the same page. Gracias! :)

 

[Marty fox]

Not only that LOOK at what it leads and will lead too . THEM to believe that CHRIST had came to the earth
and is working through men to build this end time we are one world for peace and safety .
GUESS WHO is gonna do that . A hint , WHEN we say CHRIST , PUT AN ANTI in front of that .
IF folks dont realize there truly is a literal second coming
then they can and do fall for a lie by which men , kings and a king can lead the world right into .
Let us stay glued to the bible . THE early church LOOKED forward to HIS SECOND COMING
and event paul makes very clear in two places . AND notice , PAUL was already SPIRIT filled
and when HE spoke of a second coming , IT was future and it was very literal . For he too
spoke of those who had already fallen asleep , which meant they were already dead
THEN HE SPEAKS about not sorrowing and that BOTH WE and THEM shall be caught up UNTO THE LORD at HIS COMING .
ENOCH ITS SO REAL and the true lambs LOOK FORWARD TOO IT . JESUS even said and warned
say not in your hearts MY LORD delays HIS COMING . MANY already have . WE WONT GO DOWN THAT ROAD .
SO allow me to tell everyone , what i KNOW you already KNOW
THE COMING OF JESUS DRAWS NIGH . ITS real and its coming . It has not yet happened , BUT SOON WILL .

Why do you think that I don't believe in a literal second coming I do I have never said that I don't?

 

[Marty fox]

How could Christ establish His Kingdom on earth without coming to earth? You have misunderstood and misrepresented Daniel 7 (which ties into the rest of the book of Daniel. There is no such nonsense as a "non-eschatological" coming.

Why do you think that I don't believe in a literal second coming I do I have never said that I don't?

 

[amigo de christo]

Okay. I was just concerned that my views get so far out ahead of me that I won't know how to respond anymore! ;) te entiendas?



Of course I realize that. Declaring the importance of social justice is entirely biblical. But to do so to the neglect of Salvation is heretical. It's Pelagianism, which is an historical heresy. I'm not spouting liberal theology, amigo!



We are on the same page. Gracias! :)

Well then pelagiansim has filled most all of christendom now and the RCC led in it .
My advice is , we run from that false table of unity and cling ONLY to the one true gospel that saves .
I truly have never seen a delusion both so large and now moving so fast .
Did you know that even within the so called evangelical realm about seventy percent no longer
believe in having to beleive in CHRIST to be saved and that GOD is fine with all religons .
Yeah , my advice is WE NEVER GO DOWN that false road . THUS i remind and often ask many questions .

 

[amigo de christo]

Why do you think that I don't believe in a literal second coming I do I have never said that I don't?

Oh i never said you did or did not . I was just reminding Enoch is all .

 

[Randy Kluth]

Your claim the great tribulation seen in Matthew 24:21 is fulfilled over centuries in the church age 1900 years and counting, this is a big smile to say the least!

That is precisely what Jesus said. You only have to read it, and ignore what people today *want* to believe it says! I know all this--I've been reading prophecy books for 50 years. I know what I'm talking about. Leave your smiles somewhere else until we finish the conversation. If you still feel like smiling then, okay.

Daniel's Abomination of Desolation seen in Matthew 24:15 & Daniel 9:27 is a future event and hasn't taken place anytime in history as claimed

Do you know the difference between an assertion and a suggestion? If you declare the AoD absolutely had not taken place as a fact, you are ignoring the Church Fathers and many other scholars who declare that the AoD was fulfilled in history! And you would then be ignoring all of the evidence put forward to prove that. Is that what you wish to do? Because if that's what you wish to do, there is no further basis for a discussion--your mind is made up.

When this Abomination takes place, the great tribulation starts, and the human man that starts it, will be present on earth to witness the second coming and his final judgement in destruction by the Lord at the "Consummation" (The End)

If the AoD is not a "human man," but instead the *Roman Army,* then indeed the Tribulation began with the destruction of the temple and the defeat of Jerusalem by the Roman armies.

To claim "The Great Tribulation" represents history over the past 1900 years and counting isnt found to be supported by scripture

Again, the Scripture absolutely declares that the Great Tribulation is the "Jewish Punishment" that began with the fall of the temple in 70 AD and ends at the termination of the "times of the Gentiles." This indicates the Great Tribulation lasts throughout the entire NT age, and represents the Jewish Diaspora.

We need go no further if you don't address these points. Are you open to more information, or closed-minded to all but what you presently believe?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Well then pelagiansim has filled most all of christendom now and the RCC led in it .

There are always bits of heresies in the historical Church. But this doesn't mean the official position of the Church sanctioned Pelagianism--the opposite is true! Pelagianism was declared a heresy by the historical Church!

There is even a bit of "pelagianism" in our own lives as Christians, because sometimes we try to justify our religious statements as "from God" when they're not. Ultimately, we have to repent of our self-justification and sin--these are just facts of life. We're sinners, and need to regularly be cleansed by our confession.

My advice is , we run from that false table of unity and cling ONLY to the one true gospel that saves .
I truly have never seen a delusion both so large and now moving so fast .
Did you know that even within the so called evangelical realm about seventy percent no longer
believe in having to beleive in CHRIST to be saved and that GOD is fine with all religons .
Yeah , my advice is WE NEVER GO DOWN that false road . THUS i remind and often ask many questions .

I agree--it's the time of religious apostasy, predicted in the Bible. However, God always maintains for Himself a remnant of faithful ones. You and I would sign up for a true statement of Salvation by Christ's atonement alone.

However, to prove that we have received Christ within we need to evidence that by showing forth the works of Christ in our lives, whether that is in interpersonal relationships or in our interactions with society at large.

 

[bbyrd009]

ok, but id be careful about that wise in his own eyes deal eh

well, if you dont trust your own eyes (pun intended) then bam (“by all means;” im tryna make it a thing :)) ask your bro, and see what he says, sure! Working up, the mystery you mention is the subject i am attempting to broach today…and i hope you get that i would love a literal return as much as the next believer, only i am convinced now that that is the obscuring, as we even get a hint of in English; Christ “comes, appears, is revealed,” and every eye will see Him (as opposed to “all eyes”), we must come to see Him as He is, and i could go on, Why have You forsaken Me? is even a big clue imo (I will never leave you nor forsake you) BIBLE VERSES ABOUT I WILL NEVER LEAVE YOU NOR FORSAKE YOU but Death, More Abundantly is, after all, what most believers seek i guess
daughters of Jerusalem, do not find love until you are ready

even Why do you stand there looking up into the sky? You will see Him come down the same way you saw Him go up, so obviously Jesus is as “returned” as He ever will be, right? They saw Him come down, just like Scripture says!

 

[amigo de christo]

There are always bits of heresies in the historical Church. But this doesn't mean the official position of the Church sanctioned Pelagianism--the opposite is true! Pelagianism was declared a heresy by the historical Church!

There is even a bit of "pelagianism" in our own lives as Christians, because sometimes we try to justify our religious statements as "from God" when they're not. Ultimately, we have to repent of our self-justification and sin--these are just facts of life. We're sinners, and need to regularly be cleansed by our confession.



I agree--it's the time of religious apostasy, predicted in the Bible. However, God always maintains for Himself a remnant of faithful ones. You and I would sign up for a true statement of Salvation by Christ's atonement alone.

However, to prove that we have received Christ within we need to evidence that by showing forth the works of Christ in our lives, whether that is in interpersonal relationships or in our interactions with society at large.

Works without FAITH IN CHRIST IS DEATH
And faith without works is dead too . FOR if one truly from the heart believes in Christ
the evidence is seen IN THEIR FRUITS . FOR THE SPIRIT is at work in them working that which is WELL PLEASING TO GOD .
And ps , SIN AINT WELL PLEASING TO GOD .
I used to lip the name of CHRIST yet loved my sin . TALK about death faith .
Oh and how i see dead faith in many within christendom itself .
I think many have long forgotten something , WHO WE OBEY IS WHOSE WE ARE .
WHO we serve is whose we are . JESUS Dont lead us INTO SIN , rather we are made dead to SIN to live unto RIGHTEOUSNESS .
BY their FRUITS YE SHALL INDEED KNOW THEM .
AND lest any man think i am being hateful , TRY and remember i used my old self as an example to prove dead faith .
NO , many dont have true faith at all , and their fruits do prove it .
I will leave us with a pure and true reminder from one of the first apostels ,
LET ALL WHO NAME THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST DEPART FROM INQUITY . THEY knew how to keep a church safe
for they WERE LED of the SPIRIT and JESUS KNOWS HOW TO KEEP A CHURCH SAFE .
But many have departed from the pattern and teachings o Christ and the apostels . AND HAVE WRECKED THEMSELVES BIG TIME .

 

[Randy Kluth]

Works without FAITH IN CHRIST IS DEATH
And faith without works is dead too . FOR if one truly from the heart believes in Christ
the evidence is seen IN THEIR FRUITS . FOR THE SPIRIT is at work in them working that which is WELL PLEASING TO GOD .
And ps , SIN AINT WELL PLEASING TO GOD .
I used to lip the name of CHRIST yet loved my sin . TALK about death faith .
Oh and how i see dead faith in many within christendom itself .
I think many have long forgotten something , WHO WE OBEY IS WHOSE WE ARE .
WHO we serve is whose we are . JESUS Dont lead us INTO SIN , rather we are made dead to SIN to live unto RIGHTEOUSNESS .
BY their FRUITS YE SHALL INDEED KNOW THEM .
AND lest any man think i am being hateful , TRY and remember i used my old self as an example to prove dead faith .
NO , many dont have true faith at all , and their fruits do prove it .
I will leave us with a pure and true reminder from one of the first apostels ,
LET ALL WHO NAME THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST DEPART FROM INQUITY . THEY knew how to keep a church safe
for they WERE LED of the SPIRIT and JESUS KNOWS HOW TO KEEP A CHURCH SAFE .
But many have departed from the pattern and teachings o Christ and the apostels . AND HAVE WRECKED THEMSELVES BIG TIME .

Well yea, preach it! The true Gospel message can be summed up in our personal relationship with the Lord. If it isn't a real relationship, then our religion is dead! What I've discovered is that to the degree I let sin into my life, to that degree my relationship with the Lord dies.

It isn't that He's so strict with me, but that anything that is unlike Him cannot allow Him to be there, except in the form of grace extending out to us His love. If we really love Him, we will get rid of things that make Him have to extend His grace out to us in our sin! Much better to see Him extend His love out to us in our obedience and in our righteousness!

 

[amadeus]

When you walk through the fire of oppression, you will not be burned up; the flames will not consume you

Unless there is nothing good in you. Remember the three Hebrews and the soldiers of Nebuchadnezzar...[Daniel 3] Where was the good?

ha…in the fourth figure in the fire?

Yes, but what about the three Hebrews? What was in them that made them answer the king of Babylon as they did?

"Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter.
If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.
But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up." Dan 3:16-18

Was not their vision good?

They had seen the Light, the only One who is good according to Jesus. So, any man who sees the Light must have at least a dab of good in him, right? The Hebrews could certainly see [as God counts seeing] better than the strongest soldiers of Nebuchadnezzar who threw them into the fire. The soldiers were blind!

Are Christians blind when they will not step out in faith because they cannot believe God? On the one hand, they speak of an all- powerful God, but then they deny His ability to overcome in them the very desire to sin. They speak of after a while or of after the dirt has been shoveled in their faces upon natural death. Too late to overcome then!

God did not so limit Himself. It is man who so limits God by his lack of belief, his lack of faith!

 

[Truth7t7]

That is precisely what Jesus said. You only have to read it, and ignore what people today *want* to believe it says! I know all this--I've been reading prophecy books for 50 years. I know what I'm talking about. Leave your smiles somewhere else until we finish the conversation. If you still feel like smiling then, okay.



Do you know the difference between an assertion and a suggestion? If you declare the AoD absolutely had not taken place as a fact, you are ignoring the Church Fathers and many other scholars who declare that the AoD was fulfilled in history! And you would then be ignoring all of the evidence put forward to prove that. Is that what you wish to do? Because if that's what you wish to do, there is no further basis for a discussion--your mind is made up.



If the AoD is not a "human man," but instead the *Roman Army,* then indeed the Tribulation began with the destruction of the temple and the defeat of Jerusalem by the Roman armies.



Again, the Scripture absolutely declares that the Great Tribulation is the "Jewish Punishment" that began with the fall of the temple in 70 AD and ends at the termination of the "times of the Gentiles." This indicates the Great Tribulation lasts throughout the entire NT age, and represents the Jewish Diaspora.

We need go no further if you don't address these points. Are you open to more information, or closed-minded to all but what you presently believe?

You gave "Total Disregard" to the claim that the figure seen will be present on earth to see the second coming, final judgement, "consummation" (The End)

The fact presented represents a future event, with your claim of a historical fulfillment in 70AD figure or Roman Armies being "Big Smiles" again!

Daniel's (Little Horn)

This "Future" figure will be present on earth to see the (Second Coming) of Jesus Christ and final judgement, as this figure will be slain by Jesus Christ and cast into the lake of fire (Future) unfulfilled

"Future" (Second Coming, Final Judgement) Below

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

This "Future" figure will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[ewq1938]

Well that is not what Gods Word says and what history has shown. 70 AD was when the Luke portion about Jerusalem was fulfilled!

Nope. Christ said one generation would see all the things he described which includes the second coming and gathering of the saints. None of that happened in 70AD which means none of Luke's Olivet Discourse has yet happened.

 

[ewq1938]

ah well that is Jesus, yes? Wasn’t the Second Adam made a life giving spirit?

No. How can a spirit die on the cross? Christ's spirit was incarnated into a physical body, died on the cross and resurrected physically as well.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You gave "Total Disregard" to the claim that the figure seen will be present on earth to see the second coming, final judgement, "consummation" (The End)

Disagreement is not "Total Disregard." But you've answered my question--you're closed-minded. I try to state my views hypothetically, out of respect for those who hold a different opinion. I only state facts as something I see as "objectively obvious to all."

Still, what I see as "objectively true for all" I say with respect for those who do not see it that way, until I find that they are not willing to look at something objectively true due to their own preferences. Flat Earthers are like this, and I won't discuss the planet Earth with them.

 

[Truth7t7]

Disagreement is not "Total Disregard." But you've answered my question--you're closed-minded. I try to state my views hypothetically, out of respect for those who hold a different opinion. I only state facts as something I see as "objectively obvious to all."

Still, what I see as "objectively true for all" I say with respect for those who do not see it that way, until I find that they are not willing to look at something objectively true due to their own preferences. Flat Earthers are like this, and I won't discuss the planet Earth with them.

Its "Objectively Obvious" that the figure seen below, will be present to experience the second coming and final judgement, the "Consummation" (The End)

It's not uncommon for those that have predetermined biases to disregard the "Objectively Obvious" to maintain their bias, it's a human element within man called pride

Jesus Is The Lord

Daniel's (Little Horn)

This "Future" figure will be present on earth to see the (Second Coming) of Jesus Christ and final judgement, as this figure will be slain by Jesus Christ and cast into the lake of fire (Future) unfulfilled

"Future" (Second Coming, Final Judgement) Below

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

This "Future" figure will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Its "Objectively Obvious" that the figure seen below, will be present to experience the second coming and final judgement, the "Consummation" (The End)

Yes, we agree that Antichrist, the "Little Horn" of Dan 7, precedes the 2nd Coming. In fact, the 2nd Coming of Christ takes place to be an end to Antichrist. We agree on that much.

We do *not* agree that it is "objectively obvious" that the AoD is the Antichrist. Nothing in the Olivet Discourse in any way suggests that the AoD is the Antichrist, the "Little Horn" of Dan 7.

On the contrary, Jesus said the AOD takes places in his own generation, which makes it seem impossible to me that he be the Antichrist. At the very least, it is questionable. And the lack of any statement in the Discourse that he is the Antichrist makes it questionable, and the opposite of "objectively obvious" to all.

In stating that Antichrist is destroyed at Christ's Coming therefore has nothing to do with our disagreement, nor anything to do with my concern about your saying things as fact and "objectively true." You should therefore just state "it is your opinion that..." Unless you have more information, that's all it seems you have--your opinion. Nothing wrong with that, but that's all it is.