The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Naomi25]

Yes!

God reserved the right to put every name in the Lamb's book of life.

He also gave humans permission to remove themselves from the Lamb's book of life.

God predestined every single last soul.

What you claim is that since He knew who would reject, God by your standard, should not have redeemed them in the first place. Neither should He have written their names down. Thank God, He does not go by your standards.

Your own reasoning precludes any of this.
How can names be “sealed” in the book from the foundation of the world BY Christ’s sacrificing work….AND ALSO be removed later?
Do we just assume the ‘sealing’ means absolutely nothing? Because…I think I’d like to see anything in scripture that indicates that a seal, once given, can be rescinded.
Not really getting a vibe from the below verses that a person once sealed, can loose it, give it away, or have it taken away.

Ephesians 1:13-14
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Revelation 7:2-3
Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”

 

[Naomi25]

Morning stars are not stars?

It is well known that early cultures, Israel being one of them, often regarded ‘stars’ as divine beings.
However, should we look at the Genesis creation story through the lense of that understanding? Cultural context can be helpful, but we ought always start with scripture itself:


Job 38:4-7

“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
Who determined its measurements—surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,
when the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

2 Peter 1:19
And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts,

Revelation 2:27-28
and he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father. And I will give him the morning star.

Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

Okay, what does scripture tell us about this topic?
That indeed ‘morning star’ can refer to a divine being…in these texts we see them referring to Christ, and other divine beings.
However…let’s look, again, at Genesis.

Genesis 1:14-19
And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years, and let them be lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth.” And it was so. And God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars. And God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening and there was morning, the fourth day.

Are we to suppose that when Genesis tells us God is making the sun (an actual object), the moon (an actual object) and the stars (also actual objects)…and he is making them for specific reasons (for signs and season, for days and years, to give light upon the earth, to rule over the day and over the night and to separate the light from the darkness)…why should we see this describing an angelic host? The best reading of the passage is to let it say what it is: God created the sun, moon and stars that we observe in the sky.
We see “God saw that IT was good.” Not…’saw that THEY were good’.
Also, we must consider two other points that are not inconsequential; going on the above verses, we have in Job…a clear reference to both ‘morning stars AND sons of God’ being present AT the foundation of the world…not being present several days in. AND, we have the phrases clearly pointing to Christ. And I’ll trust that you believe he has been eternal, like the Father and MUST have been present at the laying of the foundation of the earth…

 

[Ronald D Milam]

OK, so that would be another conflict to me. The beast has power to overcome everyone, but he cannot harm them until the end of their ministry. That means I would have to overlook the meaning of one of those two passages. Either the beast is given that power or he's not, but it's not, yes, and no.

No it doesn't Rev. tells you NO ONE CAN HURT the Two-witnesses which counteracts that other verse, but at the same time these are not human beings, they have already received their Glorious bodies. And THE SAINTS are used as a general term for Israelis anyway, the Christians in Revelation are usually called Martyrs. Never noticed that?

Rev. 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, AND with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Moses and Elijah are not Saints by this time, they were not Saints at the Transfiguration. They are men transported into the presence of God and given their glorious bodies. The Anti-Christ doesn't kill them, the Scarlet Colored Beast (Apollyon) does.

 

[Timtofly]

Matthew 12:32
And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Mark 10:29-30
Jesus said, “Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life.

Luke 20:34-36
And Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:6
Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away.

Ephesians 1:21
far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

Hebrews 6:5
…and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,

We can see a clear distinction between ‘this age’ and ‘the age to come’. ‘This age’ is always describing things of this earth; fallen, temporal things. Foolish wisdom, earthly possessions, marriage.
The only things that are seen as constant between the two ages, is ‘not being forgiven for speaking against the Holy Spirit’, and ‘Christ’s rule and authority over every power, dominion and name’.
If we consider the ‘age to come’, we see that ‘the age to come’ is talking about eternal things: eternal life, no marriage, because we are like the angels, heavenly wisdom, heavenly power.

You are still not pointing out which age. When did it start? When will it end?

The words "this age" and "the age to come" are meaningless without context.

Now you think we will be like the angels?

But not like the angels at creation?

This is the point we will never agree on.

The current age started at the foundation of creation and angels and humans were there from the start. Angels signified by stars. Humans signified as sons of God.

Only two beings outside of God's Trinity. Then the animals. There are no 3rd or 4th type of beings.

 

[Timtofly]

No. What I quoted you saying is found in #720. You said:



As far as the other thing I am supposed to have quoted…
You may have written that, but it was NOT what I was referring to. In point of fact, here is how the conversation went.

You:
#720 - Every human ever conceived is written in the Lamb's book of life.

Me:
#774 - I’m sorry…didn’t you say - “Every human ever conceived is written in the Lamb's book of life.” in post #720

You:
#821 - I said in principle. I did not say they were.

Me:
#856 - Ah…no. No you didn’t say “in principle”. Here is what you said: “Look at it as the Lamb's book of life.
Every human ever conceived is written in the Lamb's book of life.”

You:
#888 -
This is what you quoted: “Obviously. The branch cut off would indicate that for thousands of years many of Israel would have to be removed from the Lamb's book of life on principle alone.”



You can see that during the whole conversation I was not…never was, “quoting” from a part (wherever it may lie) where you said “on principle alone”. I have only EVER been quoting and referring to what is a clear and obvious statement from you in which you did NOT clarify it was ‘in principle’.

Then perhaps start from the very first quote of mine, because you lost me in this find a quote game. All I do is arrow back from quotes inside of quotes.

If you do not want to start from some beginning point, that is fine. I can only go back arrows. It is hard doing even that.

You cannot take being "cut off" as literal, only in principle. But a name removed from the Lamb's book of life is literal and permanent. No going back.

Also the tree is Christ, not some "forefathers", you did not get the forefathers reference for America, but I guess Australia never had any.

The "tree" is representing the Atonement of the Cross. Not the faith of some ancient ancestors.

 

[Timtofly]

Your own reasoning precludes any of this.
How can names be “sealed” in the book from the foundation of the world BY Christ’s sacrificing work….AND ALSO be removed later?
Do we just assume the ‘sealing’ means absolutely nothing? Because…I think I’d like to see anything in scripture that indicates that a seal, once given, can be rescinded.
Not really getting a vibe from the below verses that a person once sealed, can loose it, give it away, or have it taken away.

The unsealing is the 7 seals in Revelation 6 and 8. Only the Lamb was found worthy to open the book. Those seven seals did not "seal people" as in universal salvation. It was sealed as proof, God or no one else, would tamper with the names written in it.

It was the Cross and Atonement that was predestined. One's individual choice to receive the gift of Salvation is not predestination. Salvation is not forced on some, and then fails to covers others.

 

[Timtofly]

It is well known that early cultures, Israel being one of them, often regarded ‘stars’ as divine beings.
However, should we look at the Genesis creation story through the lense of that understanding? Cultural context can be helpful, but we ought always start with scripture itself:


Job 38:4-7

“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
Who determined its measurements—surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,
when the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

2 Peter 1:19
And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts,

Revelation 2:27-28
and he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father. And I will give him the morning star.

Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

Okay, what does scripture tell us about this topic?
That indeed ‘morning star’ can refer to a divine being…in these texts we see them referring to Christ, and other divine beings.
However…let’s look, again, at Genesis.

Genesis 1:14-19
And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years, and let them be lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth.” And it was so. And God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars. And God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening and there was morning, the fourth day.

Are we to suppose that when Genesis tells us God is making the sun (an actual object), the moon (an actual object) and the stars (also actual objects)…and he is making them for specific reasons (for signs and season, for days and years, to give light upon the earth, to rule over the day and over the night and to separate the light from the darkness)…why should we see this describing an angelic host? The best reading of the passage is to let it say what it is: God created the sun, moon and stars that we observe in the sky.
We see “God saw that IT was good.” Not…’saw that THEY were good’.
Also, we must consider two other points that are not inconsequential; going on the above verses, we have in Job…a clear reference to both ‘morning stars AND sons of God’ being present AT the foundation of the world…not being present several days in. AND, we have the phrases clearly pointing to Christ. And I’ll trust that you believe he has been eternal, like the Father and MUST have been present at the laying of the foundation of the earth…

God said bright lights. God did not say "objects in the sky".

They are all lights if you are going to go strictly with the Genesis account. The angels are for signs and for seasons, day and night that is their job. No beings were created before creation itself.

It is like saying a doctor was there from the very start of your life. No he was not, even if he delivered you. He was there nine months later. Yet no one argues over the 9 months part. Why 6 literal 24 hour days, when it comes to God's creation? Shall we say supposition? Making up facts? Speculation.

It is clear to me that the foundation of the world was the first 6 days. Otherwise Genesis 1:1 is a start and there was nothing, no created beings, in that phrase, "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Besides laying a foundation is symbolism. If you think the earth is a planet in a solar system, what is a foundation? At least a flat earth has a foundation, but I doubt you would take that as what the verse claims. What about the verse that says the earth hangs on nothing? How is that a foundation? Morning stars and sons of God are figures of speech like "setting a foundation."

 

[Naomi25]

You are still not pointing out which age. When did it start? When will it end?

The words "this age" and "the age to come" are meaningless without context.

How…is this not obvious?
This age = temporal (definition - of or relating to time as opposed to eternity, of or relating to earthly life)
The Age to Come = things eternal.

Which obviously means that we can classify ‘this age’ as relating to the fall up unto Christ’s return, as that is the time frame both humans and this current world has been under the influence of sin.
And that ‘the age to come’ is from Christ’s return …forever.

.
Now you think we will be like the angels?

But not like the angels at creation?

Again, you seem to be missing the obvious.

Jesus is drawing a direct comparison between what we shall be, and what the angels are, in the sense of whether we marry or not. In other words, he is saying that ‘they don’t marry…we won’t marry’, in THAT way we will be alike. But to say that ‘because we both don’t marry we are therefore angels’ is a logical fallacy called affirming the consequent.

And no…still not ‘angels’ before the fall. It doesn’t say that, so I’m not gonna believe that.

.
This is the point we will never agree on.

The current age started at the foundation of creation and angels and humans were there from the start. Angels signified by stars. Humans signified as sons of God.

Only two beings outside of God's Trinity. Then the animals. There are no 3rd or 4th type of beings.

Who on earth is claiming there are 3 or 4 types of ‘beings’?
God, heavenly beings (which I am reluctant to simply call ‘angels’ because ‘angel’ is simply ‘messenger’, and while some heavenly beings were certainly messengers, that is by no means all of them; there are cherubim, seraphim…watchers), and humans.
Humans were never the same as heavenly beings…they were always human. Fallen human after the garden, but human no less. That is why heavenly beings are not said to have ‘the image of God’.

Here’s a question…IF humans were ‘angels’ to begin with…and that’s what ‘God’s image’ was…AND if we then assume that ‘angelic’ beings share that image…indeed, were the very same as what we USED to be….WHY are the ‘fallen angels’ not simply men…like ‘fallen men’ apparently become??

 

[Naomi25]

Then perhaps start from the very first quote of mine, because you lost me in this find a quote game. All I do is arrow back from quotes inside of quotes.

If you do not want to start from some beginning point, that is fine. I can only go back arrows. It is hard doing even that.

Why would I want to go back to your first quote. The question at hand was not your very first quote to me. It was the statement I focused on…a statement you seemed to contradict, which is why I was focusing on it.
I have no idea of your computing situation, but claiming I was speaking to a statement of yours that I have NEVER been referring to is just a tad dishonest…which is why I laid out the chronology of it.

.
You cannot take being "cut off" as literal, only in principle. But a name removed from the Lamb's book of life is literal and permanent. No going back.

Again…I’m not really sure you’re grasping the true function of the analogy. Or any analogy, for that matter. How’s about ‘the Lamb that was slain’…can’t take either ‘Lamb’ or ‘slain’ literally…only in principle??

“Analogy -a comparison between one thing and another, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification”

So, the comparison would be between ‘the tree’ and ‘Israel/Church’…for the purpose of explanation or clarification.
So…when we are told that some of the ‘natural branches are cut off’, we understand that while we don’t take ‘branches’ to be literal, we DO understand the image and POINT being made…they certainly were cut off.
Indeed, Jesus outright says:

Matthew 21:43
Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.

Unbelieving Jews have been removed from ‘the tree’…had the tree ‘taken away from them’. Different imagery used, but the same purpose behind each one.
However, the metaphor allows for a return, in both principle AND fact.

However…there is still no real text that says a person WILL be removed from the book of life after being placed there.

So…

.
Also the tree is Christ, not some "forefathers", you did not get the forefathers reference for America, but I guess Australia never had any.

The "tree" is representing the Atonement of the Cross. Not the faith of some ancient ancestors.

Nope.

Romans 11:17
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,

‘Some of the branches broken off’ = unbelieving Jews.
‘Wild olive shoot grafted in’ = believing Gentiles.
‘Nourishing root’ = Christ.
‘Olive tree’ = faithful Patriarchs (Israel)

And we have no need to bring in other references or representatives…the image Paul uses is fine and adequate for the task.

 

[Naomi25]

The unsealing is the 7 seals in Revelation 6 and 8. Only the Lamb was found worthy to open the book. Those seven seals did not "seal people" as in universal salvation. It was sealed as proof, God or no one else, would tamper with the names written in it.

This assumes that the scroll with the 7 seals IS the Lamb’s book of life. Which has not been proven by you.
Most scholars agree that the ‘scroll’ is God’s overall redemptive purpose and plan for the earth. This is why John weeps bitterly when no one could be found to open the book. It means that God’s redemptive purposes would not be achieved. Salvation and final Glorification would not take place. We would be stuck, in our sin.

IF, however, the scroll is the Lamb’s book of Life. And until it is opened, every name ever thought of under the sky is in there and cannot be removed…wouldn’t that have the opposite effect of weeping? Wouldn’t it actually be a cause for joy? At that moment, everyone was safe and well ‘in the book’.

Again, your logic doesn’t add up, and you have not proved anything via scripture.

.It was the Cross and Atonement that was predestined. One's individual choice to receive the gift of Salvation is not predestination. Salvation is not forced on some, and then fails to covers others.

Really? You seem to be missing a clear chunk of Ephesians 1:

Ephesians 1:3-6, 11-14
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved….
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.


We can quite easily see that these passages speak of us as individuals being predestined. Being chosen. And being sealed as the guarantee of that inheritance. All according to God’s will.
The MEANS by this was done, is the atonement and cross. But it is quite specific.

 

[Naomi25]

God said bright lights. God did not say "objects in the sky".

I’m sorry. But where did I say “objects in the sky”? And where did God say “bright lights”?
If I said them in a previous post, it is good to provide the post#. As it is, I cannot see ANY of that in the post you are replying to.
Or what you point is.

.
They are all lights if you are going to go strictly with the Genesis account. The angels are for signs and for seasons, day and night that is their job. No beings were created before creation itself.

Oh, are you entirely serious?
Where on EARTH does the bible tell us ANGELS are for ‘signs and seasons’?
You know what ARE for signs and seasons…?
The sun, moon and stars.
I think you are so desperate to ram ‘creation of the heavenly host’ in anywhere in the Genesis account, that you have abandoned common sense.

.
It is like saying a doctor was there from the very start of your life. No he was not, even if he delivered you. He was there nine months later. Yet no one argues over the 9 months part. Why 6 literal 24 hour days, when it comes to God's creation? Shall we say supposition? Making up facts? Speculation.

Except…the text says ‘day’, doesn’t it? That’s generally what ‘there was evening, then morning, the next day’ means, does it not? It is not supposition when it’s stated outright in the text. It’s call “reading the text”.
Now…I don’t mind people who want to speculate that the days weren’t ‘literal’, and that we have an ‘old earth’ rather than a ‘young earth’.
But it IS all just speculation. It cannot be proven as fact.
The book of Genesis is not apocalyptic text. It’s not prophecy. It’s not poetry. By and large, it’s historic. Not, I’d say, strictly scientific history, because no one gave a hoot about scientific process back then, but historic nonetheless.
Which MEANS, that unless we can provide direct proof from other parts of scripture to suggest something like “the creation account was pure fantasy and only there to provide a rough framework to tell us God made stuff”…then YOU, my friend, are the one concocting unprovable theories.

It is clear to me that the foundation of the world was the first 6 days. Otherwise Genesis 1:1 is a start and there was nothing, no created beings, in that phrase, "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Besides laying a foundation is symbolism. If you think the earth is a planet in a solar system, what is a foundation? At least a flat earth has a foundation, but I doubt you would take that as what the verse claims. What about the verse that says the earth hangs on nothing? How is that a foundation? Morning stars and sons of God are figures of speech like "setting a foundation.".

Oh. Well as long as it’s clear to YOU. As long as YOUR sure the ‘laying the foundation’ includes the full 6 days.
We’re all good then.
Except…didn’t you just say that it’s preposterous to consider the 6 days literal?

And…of course ‘morning stars’ and ‘sons of God’ are figures of speech. The question at hand is what that speech stands for. Something I have shown you text for, but you…?

You know…I’m starting to get the feeling that you have no real scripture to prove yourself correct and me wrong. I mean….I keep asking for it, and I rarely get anything but your opinion. Opinion on texts that don’t say what you hope they do. And opinion as your rebuttal for the texts I have given.
You DO understand your opinion doesn’t equal 2 cents unless you have the text to support it. You could at least try.

 

[Taken]

Here’s a question…IF humans were ‘angels’ to begin with…and that’s what ‘God’s image’ was…AND if we then assume that ‘angelic’ beings share that image…indeed, were the very same as what we USED to be….WHY are the ‘fallen angels’ not simply men…like ‘fallen men’ apparently become??

Humans were never Angels.
Angels ARE created “spirits”.
Angels were created WITH, the knowledge of Gods TRUTH.
Humans ARE creations that “HAVE a spirit”.
A Humans “natural” spirit, IS, his truth in his Heart.
A Humans “natural spirit”, that IS “born again”, becomes a spiritual spirit, having been “GIVEN” Gods Truth.

Human spirits can become “LIKE” Angel spirits.....both having the Knowledge of Gods TRUTH IN THEM.
Being LIKE something, does not mean BECOMING that something.

BOTH Angels AND Humans HAVE “FREEWILL”.
Angels CAN Freely “KEEP” the Knowledge and Belief of Gods TRUTH...or
....Reject Gods Truth, and decide for themselves WHAT “their” Truth shall be.
Lucifer...was a Heavenly holy Angel, given great beauty, and given great power....and......he BELIEVED “HE” could RISE ABOVE GOD, be greater than God.
....That IS A LIE. Lucifer ONLY has the limit of Power, the greatness of Power, that God GIVES him. Because Lucifer believed he COULD rise above God...he effectually ...was KILLING Gods WORD of TRUTH....and that is WHY, he is CALLED the first MURDERER....the first to KILL the Word of God....and the First to be cast OUT/DOWN of his first Estate, ie Heaven...thus;
~ his name changed...from Lucifer to Satan
~ his status changed..from Holy to Evil
~ his estate changed..from Heaven to Earth
~ his reputation changed..from true and faithful servant of God to corrupt, conniving, liar, murderer, deceitful, evil, enemy of God.

Earthly men DO NOT BEGIN their natural LIVES....holy or faithful
Earthly men ARE OFFERED by the Grace of God, A WAY, by, through, Gods WORD/Jesus, to become ENLIGHTENED, to Gods Knowledge, and Gifted with Gods FAITH, for Hearing Gods WORD.
Earthly men ARE OFFeRED by the Grace of God, A WAY, by, through, of Christ, to become FORGIVEN, by the authority of the Lord;
To be soul SAVED (restored to good as it was when God gave it to man), (ie PSS 23:3),
and become spirit QUICKENED (receiving Gods Seed, via the Baptism of the HS, OF the Lamb of God, delivered to a man via, the Power of God, (ie Christ).
THEN is a man....become “LIKE” the Holy Angels of God.
THEN is a man....in his “LIKENESS” of Gods Holy Angels....Prepared and Able, to BE “LIKE” Gods Holy Angels “SERVANTS”....meaning a Converted man...
HAS all the “tools” so to speak....TO BE a “holy faithful SERVANT of God”...
(To which Gods has promised REWARDS for any man, WHO DOES “use his tools”....and actually SERVE GOD....by “SERVING other men”, according TO Gods WORD.....
Same concept as Jesus taught....Jesus came AS A SERVANT OF GOD...to SERVE MEN ON EARTH...by speaking Gods word to others, by helping others in distress, by giving without receiving from others, etc. ALL for Gods glory...(not glory for the man giving)....but FOR Gods Glory.

 

[No Pre-TB]

I guess we run in different circles then. To me, it's a straw man anyway, because I don't argue that. But I realize you are responding to your understandings of "pre-trib", not mine.

I've heard it, only, very infrequently. I hear the Rev. 4:1 rapture frequently, for example.

It goes to a "plenary inspiration" thing. Whether Paul knew or not is moot, God knows.

Much love!

Haha. It’s funny you said that Marks. For me, it’s just the opposite. I hear the Pre-TB Rev 4:1 rapture too, but less frequently nowadays. And you’re right, it depends on what circles we’re in.

 

[Taken]

Haha. It’s funny you said that Marks. For me, it’s just the opposite. I hear the Pre-TB Rev 4:1 rapture too, but less frequently nowadays. And you’re right, it depends on what circles we’re in.

Sure....we are in a TIME of “SORROWS”....The whole world is being oppressed by the acts of wicked men...sitting in their government power seats...standing on their soapbox, preaching the world wide FEAR of physical Death and THEY the Savior, the Peace giver, the Safety providers....while silencing, muzzling the Godly Believers.....and if you don’t go along....the Threats, the Control over buying and selling, the carting off to confinement compounds and prisons, the confiscation of the peoples wealth, the prohibition of travel, the demand to accept their poison injections (which BTW, the same govt officials are partners with the poison lab developers, and sharing in the $$ of each vial bought by borrowed funds, the people will be taxed to death to repay)....

AND OF NO SURPRISE...to LESS OFTEN be HEARING Gods Word OPENLY SPOKEN........PEOPLE FEAR the Consequence of Wicked world govt power sitters. Have you not noticed....Masking ones mouth is silencing....Distancing people is silencing...Removing people from social internet platforms is silencing...Sequestering People is silencing...Preventing Travel is silencing....People being in-prisoned ...etc. etc. ... silencing and controlling goods and services....silencing and confiscating the people’s wealth supposedly “secured” in banks....HA! AND the endless TRACKING....of WHO is and WHO is not.....bowing Down in FEAR of their Threats....and the mysterious Deaths...
Surely you are not Surprised to be hearing LESS and LESS talk ABOUT God...? It’s been 50+ years in the making of using every trick in the book, to REMOVED God from the thoughts of men and the lips of men....
Today, it’s a collusion of every world nation on board...and finally THE US jumped ON BOARD, when the frauds slithered into the People House in DC.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Sure....we are in a TIME of “SORROWS”....The whole world is being oppressed by the acts of wicked men...sitting in their government power seats...standing on their soapbox, preaching the world wide FEAR of physical Death and THEY the Savior, the Peace giver, the Safety providers....while silencing, muzzling the Godly Believers.....and if you don’t go along....the Threats, the Control over buying and selling, the carting off to confinement compounds and prisons, the confiscation of the peoples wealth, the prohibition of travel, the demand to accept their poison injections (which BTW, the same govt officials are partners with the poison lab developers, and sharing in the $$ of each vial bought by borrowed funds, the people will be taxed to death to repay)....

AND OF NO SURPRISE...to LESS OFTEN be HEARING Gods Word OPENLY SPOKEN........PEOPLE FEAR the Consequence of Wicked world govt power sitters. Have you not noticed....Masking ones mouth is silencing....Distancing people is silencing...Removing people from social internet platforms is silencing...Sequestering People is silencing...Preventing Travel is silencing....People being in-prisoned ...etc. etc. ... silencing and controlling goods and services....silencing and confiscating the people’s wealth supposedly “secured” in banks....HA! AND the endless TRACKING....of WHO is and WHO is not.....bowing Down in FEAR of their Threats....and the mysterious Deaths...
Surely you are not Surprised to be hearing LESS and LESS talk ABOUT God...? It’s been 50+ years in the making of using every trick in the book, to REMOVED God from the thoughts of men and the lips of men....
Today, it’s a collusion of every world nation on board...and finally THE US jumped ON BOARD, when the frauds slithered into the People House in DC.

Since you quoted my reply to Marks, I’ll respond back to you. I’m a Christian. I don’t deal with conspiracy theories or fear tactics. And if you think by seeing things, this is the end? Christ said in Matthew 24, the end is not yet.

 

[Taken]

Since you quoted my reply to Marks, I’ll respond back to you. I’m a Christian. I don’t deal with conspiracy theories or fear tactics. And if you think by seeing things, this is the end? Christ said in Matthew 24, the end is not yet.

I did not say...the end.
We are in “last days”.... which began When Jesus began His ministry ON Earth.
Heb 1:
[2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

We have been “warned” it will be a time of sorrows.
Mark 13:
[8] For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.


We have been “warned” perilous times shall come in the last days.
2 Tim 3:
[1] This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

We have been “warned” HOW TO AVOID Gods Great Wrath that shall come down from Heaven upon the whole earth and it’s inhabitants.
Acts 3:
[19] Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

We who have become Converted ARE SAVED FROM....(not THROUGH the WRATH....FROM the Wrath to Come. )
Romans 5:
[9] Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

HOW we are SAVED FROM THE WRATH is knowledge revealed IN Scripture...
Being raise UP off the face of the Earth.....nothing new....It is the SAME WAY Noah Was Saved from Gods Wrath upon the Earth, when God Destroyed the Entire face of the Earth and it’s inhabitants on the Earth with a Flood....Noah was raised UP above the face of the Earth....IN the Clouds, 20 feet above the mountain tops.

Nothing new under the Sun....what was SHALL be Again.
Ecc 1:
[9] The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

Then shall be the beginning of the END....Beginning with the Opening of the SEALS....and revealing of the man of sin. And the WRATH OF THE LAMB...Rev 6.

 

[marks]

For example…from my perspective, you’ve been arguing that Abraham was saved because he believed ‘you are going to have more children then you can count’ (a quote from #808), and that it was ‘offering sacrifices’ (quote from #810) that somehow explained salvation through faith AND works.
I’ve tried to argue (in #842, #843) that it was more than faith in a single promise, but in the promise of a coming Messiah that would save elected people. Indeed…all OT people who are redeemed exhibited the same sort of faith.

Hi Naomi,

We're on the same page in the complications of our conversation. I enjoy our dialog, and I wouldn't like to see it end, but I do want it to be fruitful

Did Abraham have the promise of a coming Messiah? Are we told that? What we are told is that God told Abraham that he's be the father of multitudes, and Abraham believed in God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.

I'm trying to point to 2 things in this. When __________ believed in God when God said ____________, it was counted for righteousness.

And you can fill in the blanks, Abraham, promise of children; Israelites, sacrifices will cover sins; you and I, Jesus died and rose again.

In each case, we believe the message God gave to us, believing in Him, Himself. God is the same, faith in Him is the same, but the message has changed over the years.

Genesis 15:1-6 KJV
1) After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2) And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3) And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4) And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5) And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6) And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

This was the promise. And he believed in the Lord, and He counted it to him for righteousness.

Abraham believed in the same Jesus we believe in, but the promise given, it wasn't about redemption from sin, or a coming Savior/sacrifice. We'll see more about that later on Mount Moriah, but not yet.

It wasn't faith in a promise of a coming Messiah that saved Abraham, according to the text, it was when Abraham believed in God as God was making promises of descendants.

Many I hear preach that Abraham was saved by "looking forward to the coming Messiah", but that's not in the passage, something else is. It's not about the children. Its about Abraham believing in this Being Who is visiting him, and promising Him.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I am also unlikely to view your interpretation that salvation by faith will be done at some point future, in which case salvation will only come through works.

My view is determined by the wording of the sheep/goats judgment. You seem to feel the wording shouldn't be accepted at face value because of your view. Is that fair to say?

Much love!

 

[marks]

But…all in all, I’ve thoroughly enjoyed chatting with you about these issues, and don’t mind in the least that we have…just as we started…conflicting ideas!

Ditto!

Much love!

 

[marks]

I confess I’m confused by this. As someone who likes to take each text at ‘face value’, I would wonder how you see these texts at all referring to the angels.
Angels are not mentioned…indeed, we could even say that the words used here, for ‘firmament’ is not meant to be understood as ‘heaven’

Only in Psalm 104 are angels mentioned.

I'm matching creation to Psalm 104, the color coding to show the same things. So when in Psalm 104:4, where creating angels in mentioned, I see this being after the firmament is stretched out, before the foundations of the earth were laid, as Job tells us they were shouting for joy as they were laid. Therefore, angels created on day 2 or 3 of creation. It's a minor matter. Although maybe not to the angels!

Much love!