Timtofly
Well-Known Member
I’m sorry…didn’t you say - “Every human ever conceived is written in the Lamb's book of life.” in post #720
How is it then ‘obvious’ that really they are not? You are making contradicting arguments.
Besides…Rev 13:8 tells us that ‘all on earth will worship it (the beast from the sea), everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb…”
So…it would seem that if your name is in the Lamb’s book, its been there since the foundation of the world. And we also clearly see not every name is written there….indeed many a person…many a Jew…has passed on without knowing Christ.
So…I honestly have no idea what point you’re attempting to make.
I said in principle. I did not say they were.
You keep using the olive tree symbolism as if it is literal.
Revelation 13 does not say a name has not been there.
"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
The first thought:
"whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb"
Of course their name is not there. The Lamb's book of life is now opened. When a person receives the mark, their name is instantly removed. That is what Revelation 13 is about.
The second thought:
"of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
The Cross, the act of Atonement itself sealed in every name and the Lamb's book of life as well as the Atonement was a done deal before creation.
God did not just make up a book and place names He foreknew into it. The Atonement itself was the done deal, and every one was covered equally. No favoritism, no foreknowledge of who is who to get placed.
Now of course God also knew then, who would be removed at the GWT. But that is not the same thing as only saving some and not others.
There was never a time when a person's name was not in the Lamb's book of life. All a name can do is remain there. A name cannot remove itself, nor add itself.Okay…two points: first, it’s not MY metaphor, it’s Paul’s.
Second: ‘remain in the Lamb’s book of life’..? We’ve been over this…either you’re in it from the foundation of the world, or you’re not.
The book of life idea, has no need to supersede or take over the tree metaphor. The book is talking about final salvation; who is there, who is not there.
The tree metaphor is for establishing how two peoples have become one, uniting under the promises God made to Abraham. And for demonstrating that Jewish individuals might be grafted back in. But even if this happens, they have not been ‘in the book’ then removed, only to be back in the book. If those who are to be saved is known AT the foundation of the world, their names have always been in the book. If it was known that they will NOT be saved, then their names were never in it…Jew or Gentile.
Never has nor will a name been added as an after thought.
No, the Lamb's book of life is literal and physical. It is not a metaphor. The Olive tree is a metaphor and not literal. God never removed names and then placed them back into the book of life, so I agree on that point.
Once again all names ever to be conceived, even abortions are in the Lamb's book of life. Not one name was ever left out. After the 7th Seal is opened, then the Lamb's book of life will be opened and names will start being removed at that point. The last names removed are at the GWT, for those in sheol. They have been there for thousands of years, yet still in the Lamb's book of life, because they were sent to sheol before the Lamb's book of life was opened.
Before the 7th Seal, no changes could ever be made. No names added, no names removed. The physical act of God Himself on the Cross in 30AD sealed every name ever to be into the Lamb's book of life, yet that book was actually sealed and the Atonement granted before God created current creation. God would not hold any one with respect as to their personal salvation. It would be their choice and theirs alone. No coercion, no fate, no decree on who is who.
Now Paul comes along and claims in Christ life is an olive tree, and Israel, Jacob, was a natural branch. Seemingly God is now a respector of one person and one nation, a natural branch in Christ. So metaphor, not literal. God hated Esau for Esau's personal decision. God blessed Jacob for Jacob's personal decision.
History concludes national Israel continually made horrible decisions and paid the price over and over again. God did not come along and just say, "enough is enough, I will cast Israel off and now only allow Gentiles". That was Paul's metaphor to get thick headed Israel to see their plight of their own undoing. God has always allowed Gentiles and Israel to equally come to God to accept the Atonement by faith.
Some complain about dispensational teaching and the olive tree metaphor is the NT's biggest dispensational teaching if there ever was one. Many have run with it to extremes. Some who run with this dispensational thought, do so, while trashing dispensationalism, and are being hypocritical.
BTW, I am not saying Paul is wrong, nor judging dispensational thought. It is a metaphor.