The Pre-Trib Rapture

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Timtofly

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I’m sorry…didn’t you say - “Every human ever conceived is written in the Lamb's book of life.” in post #720
How is it then ‘obvious’ that really they are not? You are making contradicting arguments.
Besides…Rev 13:8 tells us that ‘all on earth will worship it (the beast from the sea), everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb…”
So…it would seem that if your name is in the Lamb’s book, its been there since the foundation of the world. And we also clearly see not every name is written there….indeed many a person…many a Jew…has passed on without knowing Christ.
So…I honestly have no idea what point you’re attempting to make.

I said in principle. I did not say they were.

You keep using the olive tree symbolism as if it is literal.

Revelation 13 does not say a name has not been there.

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

The first thought:

"whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb"

Of course their name is not there. The Lamb's book of life is now opened. When a person receives the mark, their name is instantly removed. That is what Revelation 13 is about.

The second thought:

"of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

The Cross, the act of Atonement itself sealed in every name and the Lamb's book of life as well as the Atonement was a done deal before creation.

God did not just make up a book and place names He foreknew into it. The Atonement itself was the done deal, and every one was covered equally. No favoritism, no foreknowledge of who is who to get placed.

Now of course God also knew then, who would be removed at the GWT. But that is not the same thing as only saving some and not others.

Okay…two points: first, it’s not MY metaphor, it’s Paul’s.
Second: ‘remain in the Lamb’s book of life’..? We’ve been over this…either you’re in it from the foundation of the world, or you’re not.
The book of life idea, has no need to supersede or take over the tree metaphor. The book is talking about final salvation; who is there, who is not there.
The tree metaphor is for establishing how two peoples have become one, uniting under the promises God made to Abraham. And for demonstrating that Jewish individuals might be grafted back in. But even if this happens, they have not been ‘in the book’ then removed, only to be back in the book. If those who are to be saved is known AT the foundation of the world, their names have always been in the book. If it was known that they will NOT be saved, then their names were never in it…Jew or Gentile.
There was never a time when a person's name was not in the Lamb's book of life. All a name can do is remain there. A name cannot remove itself, nor add itself.

Never has nor will a name been added as an after thought.

No, the Lamb's book of life is literal and physical. It is not a metaphor. The Olive tree is a metaphor and not literal. God never removed names and then placed them back into the book of life, so I agree on that point.

Once again all names ever to be conceived, even abortions are in the Lamb's book of life. Not one name was ever left out. After the 7th Seal is opened, then the Lamb's book of life will be opened and names will start being removed at that point. The last names removed are at the GWT, for those in sheol. They have been there for thousands of years, yet still in the Lamb's book of life, because they were sent to sheol before the Lamb's book of life was opened.

Before the 7th Seal, no changes could ever be made. No names added, no names removed. The physical act of God Himself on the Cross in 30AD sealed every name ever to be into the Lamb's book of life, yet that book was actually sealed and the Atonement granted before God created current creation. God would not hold any one with respect as to their personal salvation. It would be their choice and theirs alone. No coercion, no fate, no decree on who is who.

Now Paul comes along and claims in Christ life is an olive tree, and Israel, Jacob, was a natural branch. Seemingly God is now a respector of one person and one nation, a natural branch in Christ. So metaphor, not literal. God hated Esau for Esau's personal decision. God blessed Jacob for Jacob's personal decision.

History concludes national Israel continually made horrible decisions and paid the price over and over again. God did not come along and just say, "enough is enough, I will cast Israel off and now only allow Gentiles". That was Paul's metaphor to get thick headed Israel to see their plight of their own undoing. God has always allowed Gentiles and Israel to equally come to God to accept the Atonement by faith.

Some complain about dispensational teaching and the olive tree metaphor is the NT's biggest dispensational teaching if there ever was one. Many have run with it to extremes. Some who run with this dispensational thought, do so, while trashing dispensationalism, and are being hypocritical.

BTW, I am not saying Paul is wrong, nor judging dispensational thought. It is a metaphor.
 

Timtofly

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Are you, perhaps, referring to this passage?

Revelation 7:9
After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands
,

Tell me…why should we assume that this ‘great multitude’ is not the saints already in heaven?
I mean…have we not had about 2000 years of ‘Saints’ who have died in Christ? I wonder what number they might be?

The fact is, this passage does not require us to understand it as ‘the church’ being raptured. Indeed, it only demands this interpretation when we force an already held doctrine onto it.
And if we take it ‘just as its written’, it does not mention the church or a rapture. It simply lists believers of every nation and tribe being there. Which their currently is….
It is the whole church after the Second Coming. From Abel in the Garden, to those alive at the Second Coming instantly restored to being sons of God.

It is not a specific group from a specific time frame.

The Second Coming and rapture happened in the 6th Seal. That is why the whole complete, glorified church is mentioned in chapter 7 between the 6th and 7th Seal.

The 144k are still on earth, not glorified, but sealed, and are eternally sealed even after the 7th Seal is loosed and names start being removed. Those 144k can never be removed. I do not think they ever physically die either. When they were sealed, they lost Adam's corruptible flesh and were given permanent incorruptible physical bodies. God would not seal anyone to remain in Adam's fallen flesh and blood to eternally be a sinner.

These 144k are the firstfruits and Christ the Prince's disciples for the future 1,000 year reign on earth. Just like Paul and the disciples were the firstfruits of the NT congregation for the next 1990+ years.
 

Timtofly

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Spare me your disdain. The idea that women do not have the same inherent value afforded to all humanity is both unbiblical and absurd. And pretending like I’m wringing my hands like a soy boy over it is misleading. Should I not be bothered by your blatant heretical claims, it would prove my own faithlessness towards scripture.




I accept it just fine. But your ducking of logic here astounds me.
Follow me: there are two strong cases to be made for Eve also sharing the ‘image of God’. The first is: she is made from Adam. Far from dismissing the notion, it proves it. If Eve is a subset of Adam, she must, logically, share his attributes. And if Adam is made in God’s image, Eve also fundamentally shares it.
The other reason is one of ‘kind’. God creates things in ‘their kind’. Mankind is made up of male and female. Again, it is absurd to assume God created ‘mankind’ and then created Eve as a different ‘kind’.


I’ve not claimed symbolism here. What I claim is your proclivity to take a text and insert ‘facts’ into it that is simply not there.
The bible tells us God made Adam, and placed him in the garden. It also tells us that he made Eve, to be his helpmate, and told them both to multiply and fill the earth.
Your insistence that Adam was first taken out of a whole group of other folks…which made him lonely….is simply NOT in the text.
Since you have not understood a word I posted and claim I am making up stuff and then totally misrepresenting my point, then I will just remain misunderstood.

I have not made the claims you are falsely accusing me of.

The Scriptures say Adam was lonely.

"And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him."

"And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him."

How can man be lonely here when on the 6th day, they were not.

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

The Garden did not include all the seas and ocean. It did not include the whole earth and dominion of the whole earth. The Garden was a separate planting after the 7th Day of rest. God would not tell Adam to fill the earth, but then place him in a certain location and ask him to stay there by himself after the fact. Adam was by himself until Eve was taken out of Adam.

That is not making stuff up nor inserting thought into Scripture. It is a logical and valid interpretation. You obviously have a totally separate interpretation.
 

Timtofly

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Now, now. If we’re taking scripture at face value, then I’m sorry….humans created on Day 6 is NOT them being present at “the laying of the foundations of the earth”.
Let’s remember what happened on Day 1 - “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.”
Day 6 is not Day 1.
The angels were created on day 4, also not the laying of the foundations on day one if you are so hyper literal.

In fact 4 is more removed from 1 than it is to 6 mathematically. 2 days apart is still the same time period.
 

Ronald D Milam

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Go your way, Daniel! This is sealed. . . . there shall be 1290 days . . . blessed is he that waits, and come to 1335 days.

Dan. 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. 5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river,(2 Angels one is Gabriel) and the other on that side of the bank of the river.(Jesus)

6 And one said to the man clothed in linen(Jesus), which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?(Key)

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen(Jesus), which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he(Anti-Christ seen in Daniel 11:36-45 is the HE) shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

So, Jesus (man in linen) answers the angel's question, HOW LONG SHAL IT BE TO THE END OF THESE WONDERS? (The things/WONDERS which Daniel was shown in Dan. 11:36-45) and Jesus answers that when he (Anti-Christ of Dan. 11:36-45) scatters the power of the holy peoples (Israel at the END TIMES as verse 4 describes, as does verses 1 and 2), then there will be a time, times and half [time] or there will be 1260 days until as Jesus says, ALL THESE THINGS ARE FINISHED !!

Let me simplify this, Jesus swears that from the time the Anti-Christ conquers Israel until all of the wonders Daniel was shown in Dan. 11:36-45 comes to an end, there will be 1260 days. Well, how long does the Beast rule for? 1260 days right? What ends his rule? Jesus' Second Coming when he kills the Beast and False Prophet and casts them both into hell (Dan. 7:11 and Rev. 19:20). So, the 1260 days starts with the Anti-Christ conquers Jerusalem/Israel (and THE MANY or the whole Mediterranean Sea Region) and his rule then ends when Jesus returns.

So, why do people change the SYMMETRY with the 1290 and 1335? Daniel asks the EXACT SAME QUESTION that the angel asked unto Jesus in verse 8, WATCH:

Dan. 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? (exact same question, KEY) 9 And he said, (1)Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many (2)shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and (3)none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

1.) Daniel is told he will not understand, no one will, until the very end times as in NOW !!
2.) Those many made white are the Church we are tried and true in Christ Jesus.
3.) We will understand because we have the holy spirit, the wicked will never see these things.

CONTINUED............
 
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Ronald D Milam

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ONLY NOW WE CAN UNDERSTAND THE BELOW

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, AND the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

What was the question the angel asked Jesus (man in linen) ? HOW LONG SHALL IT BE UNTIL THESE WONDERS END? What question did Daniel ask Jesus? The exact same question, see verse 8 above, then I said what shall be the END OF THESE THINGS (Dan. 11:36-45).

Do you see it yet? If the angels question of when will these wonders end was met by Jesus telling him the Anti-Christ has 1260 days to rule as the Beast before his rule ends, by what we now know is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ (Daniel was not privy to that info) then why should the other two numbers not be of the exact same symmetry? Two dates that are ended by Jesus' Second Coming. The first being 1290 days until Jesus' Second Coming ends all of these things Daniel was shown in Dan. 11:36-45 and the 2nd number, unlike the first is a BLESSING, which comes 1335 days before all of "those things" come to an end. God knows how to give riddles that cant be understood until He is ready for it to be understood.

So, one is the AoD (1290) and the other is THE BLESSING (1335). Both are a set number of days until all of these wonders end, or until the Second Coming changes everything as we know it. The end of the Age of man. Now the only problem we have is figuring out what the AoD and THE BLESSING is. One happens 30 days (1290) before the Anti-Christ comes to power, the other, which is the Blessing happens 75 (1335) days before the Anti-Christ comes to power and 45 days before the AoD is brought to pass. No one will ever understand the end times until they understand this TIMING God has given us. I didn't just accept this, we must try the spirits at every turn, to see if they be of God. As a matter of fact I resisted this, until I proved it was correct.

My first though was, this can't be Lord, it seems you gave me this but was it the liar giving it to me, so I have to try this and this means the AoD can not be the Anti-Christ who only comes to power 30 days later, at the 1260, and I thought, like all others, that the Anti-Christ has to be the one who places the AoD and who takes away THE SACRIFICE. That's the Men's Tradition we all understood, but is that rally the case? No, in Rev. 13 we see the False Prophet gets the masses to make an Image of the Beast. Looking back in history we can see these same TWO TYPES in Antiochus Epiphanes IV and in a man named Jason (real name Yeshua) who bribed Antiochus in order to be named the Jewish High Priest, having his pious High Priest brother Onias III killed. He then welcomed with open arms Antiochus into the temple of God to sacrifice a pig unto Zeus. He then mandated that the Jews all be Hellenized (he wanted them to worship the Greek gods also and to accept the "refined" Greek culture), this led to the infamous Maccabean Revolt. (Shadow of the END TIMES).

Now look at Dan. 9:27 it says HE (Anti-Christ) CAUSES the sacrifice to cease...

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease....

He doesn't become the Beast over Israel until the 1260 middle of the week. This AoD happens 30 days before the Anti-Christ even comes to power. He causes this by applying force to Politicians in Israel and via them applying force onto the Jewish high priest. Its a political play, the likes of which Hitler made in WW2, remember, they gave Hitler the Sudetenland as an appeasement. Don't forget, we know the last Beast will be in an AGREEMENT with Israel before he starts conquering them at the 1260, and we know he comes out of the Fourth Beast (E.U.) so, in essence, Israel becomes a part of the E.U. and just like some of these smaller nations in the E.U. now who get up in arms over all of the dictates from the E.U. likewise Israel will be pressured in this manner also. I can see it, most can't see it until they understand the 1290 and 1335, and what it entails in full.

So, the AoD is the False Prophet and not the Anti-Christ hey? Well, I set out to prove this understanding wrong, the AoD has to be the Anti-Christ I thought to myself, old habits die hard. So, off I went to prove this could not be the case and at every turn it was proven to be factual. I looked at the AoD........AND the taking away of the Sacrifice. I wondered why that was placed in the same verse, was PETA like agents angry about Meat Sacrifices I wondered. Why would a Jewish High Priest in Israel be angry with a Meat Sacrifice. That made no sense in a way, but then it hit me, I saw it, the AoD defiles the temple, how can that be unless it has first been cleansed? And why would Jesus (Man in Linen) even be speaking about that which is an ABOMINATION itself in the end times? A meat sacrifice after the one and only sacrifice by Jesus would be seen as an end time abomination unto itself !! Only when we understand the 1335 BLESSING does the 1290 fully come to be understood and I chased that down, but staying here, I was like, the 1290 must then be a Jewish High Priest forbidding Jesus Worship in the Temple (taking away THE REAL Sacrifice) and then placing an Image of the Beast to come (in 30 days) who will be the head of a Gentile Nation (the E.U.) both at the exact same time, thus its in the same verse, AND Jason did the exact same thing (chills hit me) I thought to myself.

Then In was like, Ohhhh, if the Jews have already repented by the time of the 1290, I should be able to see this in the bible, but does this make any sense? Then I saw Zechariah 13:8-9, that 1/3 of the Jews repent and that 2/3 will perish, then I turned the page and the very next verse is Zechariah 14:1 and says the Day of the Lord has ARRIVED !! And Israel repented just before the DOTL arrived !! Then I turned to Malachi 4:5-6 and it says Elijah will be SENT BACK BEFORE the Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord !! Wow, I thought, that means the Two-witnesses are sent back BEFORE the 1260 event (middle of the week) to TURN Israel back unto God. So, the coming Two-witnesses would therefore be the 1335 BLESSING, could thus be true? I went about trying to prove or disprove this also. I am relentless on FACTS. Does it fit !! Lets see how and why.

1.) The Jews know to flee Judea at the 1290, but why? They do not read Matt. 24, they think of Jesus as a fake/false messiah as we now speak, his name is a slur, they are forbidden from reading the New Testament or accepting Christ Jesus so how do they know to do what Jesus tells them to do? Well, they have to be reading Matt. 24 and the Two-witnesses will return BEFORE the Day of the Lord God's Wrath to preach repentance and salvation via Jesus Christ. Thus 1/3 of the Jews will repent, thus when they see the AoD they will know they need to flee Judea.

2.) Has it not always struck you as odd that God would allow the Anti-Christ to conquer Jerusalem, place the AoD in the temple then after all this God only then gives a SIGN to the Jews to flee Jerusalem? In that case, the Anti-Christ would just kill them all. But they are told by Jesus to FLEE and to not look back, as in something is coming your way very, very soon, go now and do not look back. But if the 1290 was 30 days before the Anti-Christ conquers Jerusalem/Israel, doesn't this make much more sense? God is all knowing He is not going to give Israel a SIGN after they have been conquered, but before, thus what else is a sign good for but for a warning !!

3.) Does it make sense that the Two-witnesses show up 75 days BEFORE the Beast and can that be proven? YES.......Both have 1260 day ordained offices on this earth by God (I am convinced its only to give us a Juxtaposition unto their timelines) and thus if one shows up BEFORE the other then they would also have to DIE before the other. Then I saw it, the Two-witnesses ae shown in Rev. 11 to have died at the 2nd Woe, then we are told behold the 3rd Woe comes quickly. So, indeed, they die 75 days before the Beast dies at the 7th Vial, because they show up 75 days before the Beast conquers Jerusalem/Israel.


1.) The 1335 comes FIRST, the Blessing = the Two-witnesses who show up 1335 days before the Second Coming ends all of these wonders.

2.) The 1290 comes next, the False Prophet will place an Image of the Beast in the temple and stop or FORBID Jesus Worship in the Temple, 3-5 million Jews come unto Christ and start worshiping Jesus in the Temple of God at the 1335, or 45 days before this 1290. The False Prophet stops this. Then places the AoD image, this happens 1290 days before all of the wonders end at the Second Coming.

3. The 1260 happens 1260 days before Jesus' Second Coming ends all of these wonders.
 
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Taken

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And the other thing is . . . the Bible is not a book of facts to learn, it's a means by which we can know God.

Much love!

Yes. Knowing God, requires Gods Gift of Faith, and Gods Faith is given By, Through, Of His Word.

Praise God,
Taken
 
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marks

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1.) The 1335 comes FIRST, the Blessing = the Two-witnesses who show up 1335 days before the Second Coming ends all of these wonders.
I'll need to read this a couple of times, just to confirm on this point, the two witnesses have there ministry at the same time as the time of authority of the beast, during the time between the AOD and the Jesus' coming in glory, is that right?

Much love!
 

marks

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Then I turned to Malachi 4:5-6 and it says Elijah will be SENT BACK BEFORE the Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord !! Wow, I thought, that means the Two-witnesses are sent back BEFORE the 1260 event (middle of the week) to TURN Israel back unto God.
And then also, that Elijah is one of these two witnesses? Is that correct?

Much love!
 

Timtofly

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So you saying Christ will open the 7th seal while here on earth ?
I would say yes. Christ is sitting on a throne in Matthew 25. Christ opens the 7th Seal and starts the final harvest. The sheep and goats are brought first. Now that the Lamb's book of life is unsealed, names will be removed. The Lamb's book of life is the reason for opening the 7 Seals. Not the events mentioned in Revelation 6. If the Seals had a specific time frame, then all would know the timing of the actual Second Coming. All we are told is that events do happen, but not necessarily because Seals were opened.

People will try to associate the Seals historically of course. Some even try to predict the future.
 

marks

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the Anti-Christ
I think many equate "antichrist" with "man of sin". As far as designating end times players, I like to use the Biblical terminology. The man of sin sits in the temple, showing himself as God.

Much love!
 

Taken

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I would say yes. Christ is sitting on a throne in Matthew 25. Christ opens the 7th Seal and starts the final harvest. The sheep and goats are brought first. Now that the Lamb's book of life is unsealed, names will be removed. The Lamb's book of life is the reason for opening the 7 Seals.

I don’t think THE Book of Life and the LAMBS Book of Life are the SAME Books.

I believe ALL natural born of mans seed, humans NAMES are IN THE BOOK of Life, and those NAMES CAN be blotted out for Rejecting God.
(Also being the books, of evidence for a mans Works, and rewards for Works that man did to Glorify God.)

I believe ONLY men who spirits are born again of Gods Seed, NAMES are Entered into the LAMBS BOOK of Life, and never subject to being blotted out.
 

Timtofly

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Matthew 24:21 - For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Daniel 12:1 - And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Matthew 24:29 - Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24:22 - And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Revelation 7:14 - And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 13:1-18 - And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. (Read More...)

Daniel 9:27 - And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 9:24 - Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Mark 13:1-37 - And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! (Read More...)

Revelation 13:5 - And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
There is great tribulation, generational since 30AD. There is tribulation like no other, after the Second Coming.

The Second Coming does not end the GT, it makes it shorter. The Second Coming is after the 1990+ years of great tribulation.

Thanks for those verses, but even you quoted them out of the order They were written in to make a point.

You pieced together an explanation. Not the only explanation out there.

Do you realize there is tribulation even today? Many are being attacked and martyred for their faith, or is that not tribulation as you would define tribulation? What is happening in those 42 months in the last verse you quoted?

The Second Coming is not pre-trib, because there has always been trouble on earth. The Second Coming will always be after some tribulation.
 

Ronald D Milam

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I'll need to read this a couple of times, just to confirm on this point, the two witnesses have there ministry at the same time as the time of authority of the beast, during the time between the AOD and the Jesus' coming in glory, is that right?
You can ask questions I welcome this, everything fits the right timelines. We aren't told specifically that the two timelines are parallel, we are only told that the Two-witnesses are called to have a 1260 day ministry on this earth. We are then told the same thing about the Anti-Christ/Little Horn who is the Man of Sin IMHO, but maybe Paul was referencing something he was not privy to in full, just like Daniel was not given the full understanding. I think there is a reason Daniel was not given the False Prophet angle but John was, this is one of the points I failed to make earlier, I am fasting today and got a little tired so I had to hurry my post up a bit and take a break. Why was Daniel only given a number (1260) but John was given the False Prophet? Daniel never mentions the False Prophet. But why did Jesus (Man in Linen) not tell him?

Because if Daniel had of been told that a coming False Prophet (Jewish High Priest) was going to betray his fellow nation Israel and his brothers, then for the next 500 years, from Daniel time until Jesus/70 AD, the Jewish leaders would have killed every other High Priest suspecting they were this evil False Prophet to come. But John could be told because by the time he wrote the book of Revelation, 70 AD had come and gone, Israel was basically no more until 1948. This is why Daniel was only told about it via a number, the 1290, and we only saw the Anti-Christ as a HE in Dan. 12 also, it pointed back to Dan. 12:36-45, whom Daniel foretold as a Little Horn in Dan. 7:7-8 and in Dan. 8:9. Back to the timelines.

By both of them having 1260 day timelines, we can juxtapose there timelines against each other and figure everything out. That is the only reason God (IMHO) allows the Two-witnesses to die, they (Elijah and Moses as I see it) already have glorious bodies, them dying at the 2nd Woe, tells us their 1260 day clock HAS TO START BEFORE the Beasts 1260 day timeline clock. They die at the 2nd Woe, the Anti-Christ dies at the 7th Vial, thus they MUST NEEDS show up as the coming Two-witnesses before the Anti-Christ becomes the Beast.

So, their ministry starts 75 days BEFORE the Anti-Christ Conquers Israel to become the Beast, and ends 75 days before the Beast gets killed at Jesus Second Coming via the 7th Via (Rev. 16:9)

And then also, that Elijah is one of these two witnesses? Is that correct?
Correct, Elijah and Moses was seen at the Transfiguration. Elijah will be sent back to turn Israel back unto Gid before the Day of the Lord. In Luke chapter 1 Gabriel tells us that John the Baptist came in the Spirit of Elijah (calling unto Repentance).

I think many equate "antichrist" with "man of sin". As far as designating end times players, I like to use the Biblical terminology. The man of sin sits in the temple, showing himself as God.
The Anti-Christ is a CATCH ALL in modern times that Christians use in place of the 30 to 40 names he us give in the bible, the Little Horn, The Wicked One, Man of Sin, The Vile man, The Lawless One, the Man of Perdition, etc.

Daniel 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

He will ultimately rule over all of the Mediterranean Sea Region, Israel and Jerusalem, and he will kill the Saints (general term for Jews) who do not repent and flee Judea, and anyone who becomes a Christian Saint of any race. But that doesn't mean he is THE ONE who takes away the Sacrifice nr places the AoD. As a matter of fact he can't be, the 1260 comes after the 1290. Both things can happen, the False Prophet can take away Jesus Worship, and place an Image of the coming Beast up in the Temple, and ten later AFTER the Anti-Christ Conquers he can sit in the temple, or wield power of it, or maybe Paul sees it as the Anti-Christ sitting in the temple, but Jesus describes it as an IMAGE in Matt. 24, and Paul, like Daniel was not given the full understanding. You see, I think the ASSUMPTIONS are just accepted as facts, instead of looking at other scriptures like I pointed out.

Matt. 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

So, Jesus refers tom WHAT HE TOLD Daniel (as the Man in Linen....SMILE) in Dan. 12 and thus the AoD is something that STANDS WHERE IT OUGHT NOT [STAND], thus I dnt see this as referring to a Man or Jesus would have stated it was a man, I think its a graven image. Now can we see this anywhere else in scriptures? Yes, in Rev. 13.

Rev. 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth(SEE Dan. 9:27) the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

What Miracles? Well, he places an IMAGE of this E.U. President/King/Anti-Christ up in the temple of God (that which stands where it OUGHT NOT STAND) and this False Prophet that comes out of the earth/land/Israel, then makes the Image come ALIVE (Don't ask me how, its a Miracle). But the point is, Jesus spoke of an IMAGE, not a man in the temple, Daniel was told about the 1290 but not told it would be a False Prophet from Israel. John was given the False Prophet, 2nd Beast from the earth (Israel) and told he would place an IMAGE of the fist Beast in te Temple and demand that all men worship the Beast.

Now, dies that sound like Jason?

Jason (High Priest) - Wikipedia


Bible Gateway passage: 2 Maccabees 4:7-10:9 - New American Bible (Revised Edition)

2 Maccabees 4:7-10:9
New American Bible (Revised Edition)

Jason as High Priest. 7 But Seleucus died, and when Antiochus surnamed Epiphanes succeeded him on the throne, Onias’ brother Jason obtained the high priesthood by corrupt means: 8 in an interview, he promised the king three hundred and sixty talents of silver, as well as eighty talents from another source of income. 9 Besides this he would undertake to pay a hundred and fifty more, if he was given authority to establish a gymnasium and a youth center for it and to enroll Jerusalemites as citizens of Antioch.

This is over six chapters via Jason, go read it. By the way, Gymnasium is a Greek word, it was a part of the Hellenistic Culture, men played sports and hung out in the buff (birthday suites) so it was a homosexual community. Jason encouraged this. This is an eye opening history lesson. Jason was indeed the TYPE False Prophet and he lived at the same time as the coming TYPE Anti-Christ Antiochus Epiphanes.

The coming False Prophet will be a sell out Jewish High Priest just like Jason was.
 

marks

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The abomination that makes desolate.

Moses told Pharoah, NO, we can't offer sacrifices in the land, we have to leave it! We're going to be offering "the abomination of the Egyptians", and they'll stone us!

What were they going to do? Sacrifice cows. The Egyptians worshipped cows. The "abomination" was their false god.

Much love!
 

marks

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So, their ministry starts 75 days BEFORE the Anti-Christ Conquers Israel to become the Beast, and ends 75 days before the Beast gets killed at Jesus Second Coming via the 7th Via (Rev. 16:9)
OK, so you have them concurrent. Correct?

Much love!
 

marks

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Elijah will successfully complete his ministry to prepare a people for the Bridegroom. Not to end in death, but the hand them over to the Groom.
 

Timtofly

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I don’t think THE Book of Life and the LAMBS Book of Life are the SAME Books.

I believe ALL natural born of mans seed, humans NAMES are IN THE BOOK of Life, and those NAMES CAN be blotted out for Rejecting God.
(Also being the books, of evidence for a mans Works, and rewards for Works that man did to Glorify God.)

I believe ONLY men who spirits are born again of Gods Seed, NAMES are Entered into the LAMBS BOOK of Life, and never subject to being blotted out.
One book of works separate from the Lamb's book of life, but now you have 3 books?

The Atonement covered the whole world. No need for two separate books of those covered by the Atonement. No one has more Atonement than other humans.
 

Naomi25

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Thanks, @Naomi25 , for the reply. I must confess I do see it as literal, not least because of seeing Jews, Gentiles and the church of God as distinct groups (1 Corinthians 10.32); thus, the rapture by definition relates to the church, whereas the rule on earth in power and glory relates to another aspect of the Lord's coming.
Well, I suppose we can agree to disagree! You may even be right. I don’t see it in scripture, but I’m hardly going to be disappointed if I am, am I?!