The Pre-Trib Rapture

[CadyandZoe]

IF post-trib rapture, then yes. PRE-TOJT Departure would be no.

Why? I still don't get it. Revelation 7 says that we all go through the GT. According to that chapter, the idea of a pretribulation rapture is meaningless. Perhaps the pre/post debate has redefined the GT?

I think post-tribbers believe it is the "last (7th trumpet) sound of an angel."

So they believe that the trumpet judgments are the GT? Where did they get that idea?

 

[CadyandZoe]

If anyone wants to notice this.......and you are "into" end times study.

Notice.

In REV Chapter 6, Jesus comes for His Church, and in Chapter 19, He comes back with His Bride/Church, Body of Christ.
So, where were all the born again from 6-19?

Now what is happening on earth?

Also, do not read into those verses ISRAEL as the body of Christ, and you will be way ahead of the rest.

I don't see what you see in chapter 6. Please Help me understand how you concluded that Jesus comes for his church in Revelation 6. I don't see that.

 

[n2thelight]

In REV Chapter 6, Jesus comes for His Church, and in Chapter 19, He comes back with His Bride/Church, Body of Christ.
So, where were all the born again from 6-19?

Revelation 6:2 "And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."

The above is not ,I repeat, not Christ it's satan when he comes pretending to be

The rider of this white horse is not the rider of the white horse who comes with a rainbow around his head, and a rainbow around the throne he leaves. This "bow" in the Greek is a cheap fabric, or imitation, In the Greek it's called "toxon"

"bow" - 5115 toxon (tox'-on); from the base of 5088; a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric): KJV-- bow.

In the nineteenth chapter we will see the true Christ coming in all his glory, and then this first rider of the white horse will go to the pit. The first rider of the white horse does not come in war, for no arrows are mentioned; he will come in religious peace.

 

[Taken]

I don't see what you see in chapter 6. Please Help me understand how you concluded that Jesus comes for his church in Revelation 6. I don't see that.

Jesus’ Church has willingly given their life, their soul, their spirit....unto Gods care.

The First Great Tribulation was all about WRATH upon the Earth.
The Last Great Tribulation shall be all about WRATH upon the Earth.
Why would such a person, Fully In Committed Belief, made WHOLE, body, soul, spirit, be subject to Wrath?

Observe WHO’S wrath appears FIRST... Why would a man IN Christ suffer the Wrath of the Lamb? Did you not confess belief in the Lamb of God?
What about men WHO believe in God, but NOT the Lamb of God?
Yes, they suffer the Lambs Wrath, for having Heard, and rejected the Lamb.

Rev 6:
[16] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

What about the wrath of the devil? Is a Converted man IN Christ appointed to suffer the devils wrath? Did God not promise to KEEP a Converted man in His hand?
Rev:12
[12] Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

What about Gods Wrath? Is a Converted man IN Christ appointed to suffer Gods Wrath?
Rev 16:
[1] And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

See post 677...How and Why Noah was not subject to Gods Wrath and neither are the Converted “IN” Christ.

 

[Taken]

I don't see what you see in chapter 6. Please Help me understand how you concluded that Jesus comes for his church in Revelation 6. I don't see that.

To be clear, Jesus is not COMING TO EARTH to rescue Christ’s Church.
Jesus’ Angel calls up Christ’s Church.
The Lord descends from Heaven to meet Christ’s Church in the clouds.
Christ’s Church meets the “Lord” in the clouds.

It is Son of Man (humbled) who came to Earth.
It is Son of Man (with power) who returns to Earth.
The Rapture is about the Lord, meeting His Church, in the clouds, not the Son of Man returning to Earth.

 

[Taken]

Why? I still don't get it. Revelation 7 says that we all go through the GT.

If you are ON the face of the Earth during the Tribulation, you will experience the Tribulation, death and destruction.
Same as all the people ON the face of the Earth during the First great Tribulation......review...they all died....only Noah and his family were saved, risen up above the face of the earth.

According to that chapter, the idea of a pretribulation rapture is meaningless. Perhaps the pre/post debate has redefined the GT?

Which is for you to say.......You bodily being crucified with Christ, soul saved, spirit quickened, is “meaningless”....God still has a vendetta Against you, for your body, Not believing in Him, your soul, Not believing in Him, your spirit, Not believing in Him....thus you wholly (body, soul, spirit) shall suffer Wrath.
Scripture teaches the complete opposite.

So they believe that the trumpet judgments are the GT? Where did they get that idea?

The NEXT great Tribulation is a series of Judgements, (7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 vials) that increase bit by bit....Against corrupt men, Against corrupt angels....
During the NEXT great Tribulation men have an opportunity to Become made whole....body, soul, spirit......or not.
Some men ARE already made whole....body, soul, spirit...and are NOT subject to wrath during the Tribulation.

 

[CadyandZoe]

If you are ON the face of the Earth during the Tribulation, you will experience the Tribulation, death and destruction.
Same as all the people ON the face of the Earth during the First great Tribulation......review...they all died....only Noah and his family were saved, risen up above the face of the earth.

I still don't get it. If the saints have been raptured, how then do they experience the tribulation?

Which is for you to say.......You bodily being crucified with Christ, soul saved, spirit quickened, is “meaningless”....God still has a vendetta Against you, for your body, Not believing in Him, your soul, Not believing in Him, your spirit, Not believing in Him....thus you wholly (body, soul, spirit) shall suffer Wrath.
Scripture teaches the complete opposite.

I'm not following you. I was wondering if the Pre/post trib debate has redefined the GT. It seems like it has, which means the debate is on the wrong track. Jesus predicts a Great Tribulation unlike the world has ever seen. Then John, in the book of Revelation, says that the saints go through it. What tribulation are you talking about?

The NEXT great Tribulation is a series of Judgements, (7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 vials) that increase bit by bit....Against corrupt men, Against corrupt angels....
During the NEXT great Tribulation men have an opportunity to Become made whole....body, soul, spirit......or not.
Some men ARE already made whole....body, soul, spirit...and are NOT subject to wrath during the Tribulation.

So then, in your view the seals, trumplets, and vials are the GT? And all of these take place AFTER the rapture? Explain.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The First Great Tribulation was all about WRATH upon the Earth.
The Last Great Tribulation shall be all about WRATH upon the Earth.

What's the difference?

But let's get back to my question. I asked about the seventh seal, which some people believe is coincident with the rapture of the church. It that is the case, then how do you say that the church is gone during the seals? I don't get that.

Why would such a person, Fully In Committed Belief, made WHOLE, body, soul, spirit, be subject to Wrath?

Isn't this a problem for your view? You have quickly taken the conversation away from tribulation to wrath. As I suspected, you seem to have changed the definition of GT to wrath. Obviously God would not bring his wrath on believers. But according to Revelation 7, believers experience tribulation, so the wrath and the tribulation are two different things, no?

 

[CadyandZoe]

To be clear, Jesus is not COMING TO EARTH to rescue Christ’s Church.
Jesus’ Angel calls up Christ’s Church.
The Lord descends from Heaven to meet Christ’s Church in the clouds.
Christ’s Church meets the “Lord” in the clouds.

It is Son of Man (humbled) who came to Earth.
It is Son of Man (with power) who returns to Earth.
The Rapture is about the Lord, meeting His Church, in the clouds, not the Son of Man returning to Earth.

But I still don't see any of that in Revelation 6.

 

[Truther]

Pretrib is not even found in the bible. It's a man made invention. The bible teaches a rapture after the GT.

The rapture is after the Great Tribulation has ended, after Christ's second coming begins, after the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

The resurrection only happens at the second coming and the second coming can only happen after the trib has ended, and since the verses tell us the rapture happens AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these verses decisively prove the rapture is post-trib not pre-trib.

It's that simple.

Christ also spoke of the rapture but used the wording of saints being gathered together, and no surprise, placed it after the end of the Great Tribulation.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation (great tribulation has ended) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven(second coming reference): and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming (second coming reference) in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect (*another way to speak of the Rapture) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

*(also see 2nd Thessalonians 2:1 for the same language regarding the Rapture ie: a gathering)

Timing of the gathering/rapturing is exactly the same in these two passages. In both we have saved Christians being moved from one place to another and in both that happens after the tribulation has ended and when the second coming has commenced.

The elect from the 4 winds are the trib saints, not the saints that are caught up unsuspectedly as a thief.

Funny, Jesus says he will return to a sleeping bride situation.

Not as the wrath of God is being poured out in Rev 6 and Rev 16.

When the catching away happens, half of the bride will be left behind because of complacency.

This is not at all the scene of the great tribulation.

Wake up.

 

[n2thelight]

The elect from the 4 winds are the trib saints, not the saints that are caught up unsuspectedly as a thief.

So these tribes saints are those who come to Christ after this rapture, may I ask how when rapturist claim the Holy Spirit will not be here?

 

[Truther]

So these tribes saints are those who come to Christ after this rapture, may I ask how when rapturist claim the Holy Spirit will not be here?

Yes, these saints at the end of the tribulation are likely beheaded already.

They are found resurrected in Rev 20.

They joined the church that previously returned with Christ in chapter 19.

They Holy Ghost will take the saints and will be immediately replaced by wrath being poured out on the earth.

 

[Taken]

I still don't get it. If the saints have been raptured, how then do they experience the tribulation?

A saint, is one who is Dead, Saved, Quickened.
A Converted person is accounted a saint.
Pray FOR (not TO) the saints.
Remember, Jesus was crucified for His Belief?
Historically, saints have been killed for their Beliefs. Continues today, especially Middle East.
They experience tribulation, FROM men.

Gods Great Tribulation is promised pay back of sorts.
Remember God said VENGEANCE is His?

Throughout the Great Trib. God sends “TRIBESMEN of ISRAEL”, to Preach Christ Jesus to them. First, 2 Witnesses IN Jerusalem, Gods holy city, 3.5 years. The 144,000 and a Lamb, on My Zion, Gods holy mt., 3.5 years. (An over lap of time). They already believe IN God, and 2,000 yrs ago started believing in Christ Jesus, (12 Apostles), but were persecuted for their beliefs, and reverted to OT beliefs, waiting on their Messiah. And have continued being persecuted. (Tribulation from men.)

Mean time for the past 2,000 years, Many Gentiles have been be Converting, Believing In the God of Israel, crucified with Christ, soul saved, spirit quickened....are not OnLY with God, but are “IN” Christ. Gods Spirit “IN” them...ie MADE WHOLE. They are different than all other men ON Earth.
They are are NOT subject to the Great Wrath OF the Lamb, the devil, of God, that shall take place upon the whole world.
Wrath is a consequence for DISBELIEF...disbelief in the Lamb, disbelief in the devil, disbelief in God....The Lamb, the devil, God....ALL have great Power during the Trib., to Kill, those who REJECT each of THEM.
Their Wrath is occurring all through out the Trib.
Those WHO convert during the Wrath, are Accepting the Lamb, Accepting God, and the Devil being rejected Shall Kill their body’s....but their souls and spirits shall be saved. Their body’s shall be raised in Glory during the first Resurrection.

I'm not following you. I was wondering if the Pre/post trib debate has redefined the GT. It seems like it has, which means the debate is on the wrong track. Jesus predicts a Great Tribulation unlike the world has ever seen. Then John, in the book of Revelation, says that the saints go through it. What tribulation are you talking about?

Yes, the Last Great Trib shall be Horrible. So was the First Great Trib. How many were SAVED FROM the First Great Trib,? Eight. Why? Because they Believed in God. How were they saved? Risen up ABOVE the face of the Earth.
Why? Because Destruction was ON the face of the Earth.
Why are those IN Christ Saved from the Last Great Trib? Because they Have already laid down their bodily life, become soul saved, become spirit quickened. What more does one need to do to satisfy God? Are they NOT LIKE NOAH? Didn’t God raise Noah UP Above the Face of the Earth to Save him from WRATH upon the Earth? God has promised the SAME to all Converted men, His Spirit IN them, NOT subject to Wrath. Lifted UP above the face of the Earth while Destruction is UPON the Earth.

So then, in your view the seals, trumplets, and vials are the GT? And all of these take place AFTER the rapture? Explain.

Yes.

 

[Taken]

But I still don't see any of that in Revelation 6.

The whole big picture of the NT, is Salvation BEFORE PHYSICAL Death.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

@CadyandZoe, this "key" of Right Division, may or may not be helpful;
Please be VERY Richly Encouraged and Edified In HIS Word Of Truth!:

Please see/re-visit post #554 and, possibly #565

GRACE And Peace...

 

[Taken]

What's the difference?

First trib...8 were entered into the arc 7 days Before the Trib Began.
During the Trib. Flooding they were raised above the face of the earth...
Last trib..?? How man shall be raised up Before the 7 years of Trib Begins ?? I do not know how many, but I do know WHO...those Converted IN Christ.

But let's get back to my question. I asked about the seventh seal, which some people believe is coincident with the rapture of the church. It that is the case, then how do you say that the church is gone during the seals? I don't get that.

In brief...
Rapture...a Quick rising up Above the face of the Earth before the Trib, applies to the Church. The Church is NOT those who “go to a church”. The Church is with-IN a person, WHO was forgiven for their disbelief, crucified with Christ, soul saved, spirit quickened, Gods Spirit IN them....made WHOLE, and Kept WITH the Lord God, BY Gods Power (Spirit) IN them. IN the clouds, above the face of the Earth during the Trib. With their Lord, Waiting to Go to Christ’s Kingdom ON Earth.

The Seals & Trumps affect those ON Earth who are NOT Converted.
Those ON Earth who become Converted DURING the Seals & Trumps...become soul saved, spirit quickened, and their Body Physically Killed. Their Body’s shall be raised AFTER the Trib and AFTER Christ’s 1,000 yrs reign. Then the First resurrection.

The Vials which come last during the Trib, affects those ON Earth who ARE LEFT, ie THOSE... “WITH SATAN”....Their tribulation is the greatest. They will BEG to bodily die, and can not. This IS Gods Great Vengeance, for Anti-God and Anti-Christs having persecuted and caused tribulation for Believers FOR centuries.

After the Vials which contends with the “men”, then Gods Holy angels contend with Demonic angels, celestial war, battle. And the demonic angels are “in-prisoned” in hell for 1,000 yrs, while Christ’s Kingdom is on Earth with His saints, occupying Christ’s Kingdom....and a remnant of mortals live outside of the Kingdom ... the Throne in Jerusalem, (ie King Davids everlasting Throne), and the Kingdom (the Land Promised to Abraham and his faithful heirs)....todays ISRAEL nation, parts of present Iraq, ... ie Middle East.

After 1,000 years, Satan and his Demonic angels are released, to again reek havoc on the mortals. Over the 1,000 yrs Some mortals generationally maintained BELIEF in the Lord God....while other drift away, became well to do, and lived in the pleasure of their wealth....<—- They will be particularly favorable to AGAIN join up with Satan (as history repeats itself). Then shall the Son of Man RETURN “with power”.... Defeat Satan and his demonic angels, once and for all. Men Against the Lord God, shall not be saved, their Body's killed and their souls join the unsaved in hell. The Judgement.
Rising up of all the Body’s in Glory of the saved, their saved souls and quickened spirit (in heaven) rejoin their glorious body...then Judgement for the unsaved...the Gods Breath of LIFE in their souls returns to God, and their body and souls destroyed. Remembered no more.

Isn't this a problem for your view? You have quickly taken the conversation away from tribulation to wrath. As I suspected, you seem to have changed the definition of GT to wrath. Obviously God would not bring his wrath on believers. But according to Revelation 7, believers experience tribulation, so the wrath and the tribulation are two different things, no?

WRATH is centered ON GODS ANGER. Remember God, a Jealous God? Remember God Teaching men from the beginning....men WITH HIM...He protects and Keeps WITH Him....and men who Reject Him are on their own, and BTW have to deal with Satan’s evilness, cunningness, and Wicked men?

All throughout history we have testimony of the Effects of generations of men WHO, were WITH God, and WHO, were WITHOUT God....
The flood, the Israelites Bondage, the introduction of the Gentiles being Offered Salvation, the Offering of Gods Salvation to ALL men, by, though, of Gods Christ Messiah (BEFORE their physical death.)
The DIVISION of men....SHALL END. God has revealed His Plan to once and for all SEPARATE ALL men, ALL demonic angels.....FROM All men WITH Him, and ALL His Holy angels...AND renew the Earth and Heavens to Absolute Holiness and Perfection.

Over 6,000 years....God has watched men and His holy Angels, over and over and over REJECT HIM.... Can you get...Fed up? Ready to get to getting with those who heartfully desire to be WITH Him?

All who go through the trib....have rejected God or His Christ Messiah...and many shall be saved DURING the trib....they belong to God...He will raise them after Christ’s 1,000 yrs reign of those who converted IN Christ.

 

[marks]

And by that I mean…only given to those who are ethnically Jews.

Well, there is the place where is says the seed of Israel remaining a nation, it just seems so clearcut to me.

I'm only on line right now for a few minutes, I'll need to return to this on Monday.

God bless!

Much love!

 

[marks]

I’m having a crappy week and my thoughts are all over the shop.

I'm sorry to hear that! I'm having a difficult day myself, so I don't want to shortchange you.

Much love!

 

[Naomi25]

Do you believe a christian or church flying the occultic "inverted pentagram" and having it in a place of worship is corrupted?

The symbol used claimed to be the star of David, specifically the Hexagram better known as the star "Remphan" Acts 7:43, and is straight out of the occult, luggage brought back from Babylon

I clearly stated I wasn't judging a persons salvation, and once again the star "Remphan" has absolutely no place in christian observance or use "None"

I have a few thoughts about this…
First…a pentagram, even an inverted one, has five points. The ‘star of David’ is a six pointed star.
Stephen’s reference to the ‘star of Remphan’ could have, historically, been either, because he did not say if the star was five or six pointed.

My next thought is that people are often confusing certain symbols and what they mean or come from. Today, an inverted cross is usually seen as a Satanic symbol. In point of fact, it was first used by those wishing to honor the Apostle Peter, who was crucified up side down. Not Satanic at all.
We also have the LGBTIQ community using the rainbow as their symbol…and we all know who used that first.
Or…what about halal meat? We all know why that particular food is prepared and labelled that way. Goodness, I expect many Christians have eaten halal products and had no idea they were doing it…who checks the label? Would that mean they were eating food given (or prepared) for idols? Or would it be just eating meat? In Christ we have tremendous freedom.

When it comes to certain Jewish aspects, like the flag, how do we assign meaning to it that the Jews themselves do not? They are not displaying the flag as a blatant showing of a different god. They assign different meaning to it…meaning of their heritage and decent.
And we also know, thanks again to Paul…that it was not sinful for Jews to continue observing many of their cultural beliefs. It was not sinful to continue circumcision. Or to attend Synagogue, or even abstain from certain foods. The sin was in labelling anything else sinful, and thinking these observances would save.

 

[Naomi25]

Well, there is the place where is says the seed of Israel remaining a nation, it just seems so clearcut to me.

I'm only on line right now for a few minutes, I'll need to return to this on Monday.

God bless!

Much love!

Perhaps we might get somewhere if I ask you HOW you actually view these passages…especially in light of the OT texts you are presenting.

Romans 9:6-8
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

Galatians 3:16
Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.

Galatians 3:28-29
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.