The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Naomi25]

Looks like you love to cherry pick what you will believe and what you will disregard. So do you even know what is being spelled out in Romans 11:25-36? It is the future redemption of believing Israel (the twelve tribes, not every Jew). If you turn to Ezekiel and many of the other prophets it is all spelled out in detail.

Cherry pick? Ah…hello? I posted pretty much most of Romans 11 in order to show you that it just does not mention the fact that the ingathering of Jews has to/must occur after a Rapture.

You are attempting to make an argument from silence.

. Why would there be any need to mention that when it is clearly spelled out in other passages?

To start with, I imagine the need for the passage to mention it was because your previous post said it was “spelled out in Romans 11”.
That was a big load of ‘Nope’.
And now it’s ‘on me’ to prove it doesn’t need to be there, because it’s spelled out in other passages? Like it was spelled out in Romans 11, I bet.

.Did you really expect the Bible to be a textbook on theology and eschatology?

No. I expect folks to have to do the work. And back up what they claim.

. The fact remains that God has a specific number of Gentiles in mind in order to complete the Church. And He calls it "the fulness of the Gentiles".

Yes. No one is debating that ‘fact’. All I’m asking from you is to provide ‘the fact’ that when it speaks of fullness of the Gentiles being done, and for the ethnic Jews to be grafted back onto the tree, that it must be in line/timing with the Rapture. That the ‘church’ cannot be here when it is being done.

 

[Naomi25]

It's not biblical. There is not one single verse that says anything about Jesus rejecting Jews suddenly converting and accepting Christ as the Messiah. Not one. It would be awesome if one existed, and even for all non-Christians to suddenly convert but such a concept is not found in the bible.

I’m…not sure I agree with that. In just a straight up ‘it’s happening’ sort of way. We see plenty of Jews who have previously rejected Christ as their Messiah become believers.
And…I think a case can be made from Rom 11. I’m not absolutely dogmatic on it, but it’s how I read it.
What would possibly be the point of “making Israel jealous” if not for the hope that some…maybe even many, would come to faith? Why would Paul contrast unbelieving Jews with a ‘full ingathering’ of them AFTER the ‘partial hardening’ of them?

I do understand people see Rom 11 differently, but that’s how I read it.

 

[Keraz]

You can make of that what you will, but it’s a fundamental mistake to divorce ‘Israel’ and ‘the church’ when everything in the NT makes them one.

ONE Christian people; John 17:20-23, Ephesians 2:11-18, +

It is the fundamental error of the pre- Trib 'rapture' believers to make Jewish Israel to be a separate, special people.

And yes…I expect Romans 11 does paint a picture of ethnic Jews being grafted back onto the ‘tree’ in large numbers…

No; only a remnant, as Isaiah 6:11-13, Romans 9:27 tell us. Those who are Christians NOW.

 

[Naomi25]

Faithless Israel literally has been cut off and cast off, of those who reject Christ. The term Paul used was removal of their branches. That is cutting the branch off and casting it away. It can be reattached which is a spiritual form of resurrection (dead branch alive again and re-grafted) but only if they accept Christ.

Romans 9:6-8
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

“Israel” is continued and represented through Messianic Jews (Christian Jewish believers) and Gentile believers who have been grafted onto the tree with them.
I was not referring to unbelieving ‘Israel’. To be ‘children of Abraham’ once more, they too must be grafted back onto the tree…which means accepting Christ.

 

[Naomi25]

ONE Christian people; John 17:20-23, Ephesians 2:11-18, +

It is the fundamental error of the pre- Trib 'rapture' believers to make Jewish Israel to be a separate, special people.

No; only a remnant, as Isaiah 6:11-13, Romans 9:27 tell us. Those who are Christians NOW.

“NOW” is rather subjective, though, wouldn’t you say? How many Jews are becoming believers in Christ? Do we suppose that between now and Christ’s return, whenever that might be, there would be a steady ingathering of Jews who convert? Might there become more than are converting now?
I don’t think anyone believes that all Jewish people will shake their heads one morning, as if a fog is leaving them, and then accept Christ on the spot. However I believe Rom 11 could very well be teaching us to expect a steady, perhaps increasing number of them coming to Christ right up until the end.

 

[ewq1938]

I’m…not sure I agree with that. In just a straight up ‘it’s happening’ sort of way. We see plenty of Jews who have previously rejected Christ as their Messiah become believers.

Sure but I was speaking about the idea that all Jews globally suddenly accept Christ. That's not found in the bible. Definitely individuals do and have accepted Jesus :)

 

[n2thelight]

There will still be heaven, and there will still be earth.

There will be those who do not reproduce, who are in the resurrection like the angels, and those who do, in whom the word of God, and the Spirit in them will be in their children, and their children's children, and so on.

Much love!

No ,at the return of Christ the flesh age is over, no one will be born during the millennium.

 

[n2thelight]

Jesus Christ returns in fire and final judgement,dissolving this earth by fire (The End) 2 Peter 3:10-13, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8, luke 17:29-30, Zechariah 14:12, Nahum 1:5, Malachi 3:2

This earth will pass away and the new creation in the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, will be revealed at the return of Jesus Christ Revelation 21:1-5

There won't be a Millennial Kingdom on this earth, a teaching found no place in scripture

This earth will never ever be destroyed ,it will be rejuvenated .

The millennium starts the moment Christ feet touch this earth at the Mount of Olives ,so if the millennium is not on earth can you please tell me what happens after Christ arrives here?

 

[Truth7t7]

Romans 9:6-8
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

“Israel” is continued and represented through Messianic Jews (Christian Jewish believers) and Gentile believers who have been grafted onto the tree with them.
I was not referring to unbelieving ‘Israel’. To be ‘children of Abraham’ once more, they too must be grafted back onto the tree…which means accepting Christ.

I disagree, the Messianic tradition (Zionism) plays no part in prophecy fulfillment as claimed

The reversion back to Jewish customs and traditions is exactly the opposite of biblical teachings and admonition in many aspects

The star of David being one example, is nothing more than the occultic (Hexagram) carried back to Jerusalem from the Babylonian Captivity Acts 7:43, that's proudly displayed in Messianic gatherings

Judaism today is bound by the evils found in the Talmud and Kabbalah, the very reason Revelation 11:8 describes Jerusalem as Sodom and Egypt

Acts 7:43KJV
43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.

 

[Truth7t7]

This earth will never ever be destroyed ,it will be rejuvenated .

The millennium starts the moment Christ feet touch this earth at the Mount of Olives ,so if the millennium is not on earth can you please tell me what happens after Christ arrives here?

Scripture teaches your claim is "Error"

This existing earth will be "Dissolved" by the Lord at his return on (The Day Of The Lord)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

John saw a new heaven and earth, this earth has passed away

Revelation 21:1KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Hi! I appreciate the thought, but I’m not having much luck tracking with your posts. Sometimes point-format is good, but I’m afraid that for the purpose of our conversation, I’m not really getting a sense of your argument. I’m aware of all those verses, but without some hard exegetical work breaking them down, it’s very hard to see your point of view on them. Sorry!

Thanks, appreciate your Valuable input...

 

[marks]

Would you be able to post the verses where God makes it clear? Thanks…

Here is one place:

Jeremiah 31:31-37 KJV
31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

I like to ask people, Did the sun come up today? Have you measured the sky? Then the seed of Israel remain a nation before God.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I know of nothing that teaches a time will come that will allow righteousness to be earned by works. Indeed, that idea directly contradicts numerous clear biblical teaching on the subject.

There is a lot you've written and I want to read it all and respond. I really enjoy your clear and level presentation!

On this part above, I find this makes a good focal point in discussion.

Matthew 25:34-40 KJV
34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36) Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37) Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38) When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39) Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40) And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Jesus sets these on His right, invites them into the kingdom, and gives the reason, Because I was hungry, and you gave me food, and so forth. He doesn't say, because you've trusted in Me, because you've been reborn, but He gives the reason, you cared for the needs of my brothers.

So, the question is, is this really the reason? Or is it something else, like, "this demonstrated their faith, and of course they are saved by faith." Well, yes, for whatever reason, they believed something that told them they had to do this.

Just like Abraham, we believed God's message, but God's message to us wasn't the same as His message to Abraham, that he would have so many descendants. That's what Abraham believed, and God justified Him. We believe in Jesus, God justifying us. These will believe something, and go on to do something, and it's the "doing" that is credited as the reason for their justification.

Matthew 25:46 KJV
46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

These shall "go . . . into life eternal." Had they not yet "passed from death into life"? These are some of the things I take note of, and pay attention to.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Making care to point out that a group will be left to ‘try again’, so to speak.

I'm not sure what you mean here. I believe all who are "in Christ" will be caught up, "in Christ" referring to being baptized into Christ, becoming a new creation. Are you thinking of "not ready Christians" or something like that?

Much love!

 

[marks]

No ,at the return of Christ the flesh age is over, no one will be born during the millennium.

How do you understand this passage?

Isaiah 59:20-21 KJV
20) And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
21) As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

Do you see this as speaking to ongoing generations?

Much love!

 

[farouk]

Here is one place:

Jeremiah 31:31-37 KJV
31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

I like to ask people, Did the sun come up today? Have you measured the sky? Then the seed of Israel remain a nation before God.

Much love!

@marks Good quote there. This is one reason I find it hard to think that there is not a future for the Jews. Even though I don't see Jews as the same as the church (1 Corinthians 10.32).

 

[CadyandZoe]

If Jesus comes and first gathers Israel, and then gathers the nations to be judged according as He said, the church has to already be gone from the earth when the great tribulation begins.

Why? What if the great tribulation is local to Palestine in general and Israel specifically? Then the rapture can take place anytime.

[/quote]
If the Revelation is prophetic narrative, and when it says this happens and then that happens, that's the way it is, the church must be gone before any of the trumpets and bowls. [/quote]

I don't see the correlation. But what if the trumpets are localized to Israel?

So to continue the one example . . . "the servant of God were sealed", John heard the number, 144,000, all Jewish men. No gentiles there, no women, and only 144 thousand of them. No church present on the earth.

Why can't they exist side-by-side with the church?

 

[CadyandZoe]

The great tribulation is God's wrath against this sinful God rejecting world not His church(born-again believers)
1 Thessalonians 5:9
“For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,”
Luke 21:36
Jesus says===“Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

Where does the Bible say that the Tribulation is God's wrath?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yet, they somehow cannot see that this is same exact gathering/rapture. Both of these are addressing the one and only rapture of the church and it is after the end of tribulation just as Paul said it was:

I don't think Matthew 24:31 is talking about Jesus-followers. Give me a good reason to think it is talking about the church.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Really don't know where you get the 144,000 being only men ,also when one is saved they become grafted into Israel whom is and has always been the Church.

You are right, they aren't necessarily all men. John is using symbolic language. The concept of virginity, symbolically represents holiness and faithfulness. Reference Paul's second epistle to the Corinthians.

11 I wish that you would bear with me in a little foolishness; but indeed you are bearing with me. 2 For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin. 3 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

I suspect that John's reference to virgins in Revelation conveys the same idea. Reference also 1 Samuel 21, where we come to see that fighting men needed to be purified before battle. It doesn't necessarily mean they were inexperienced. They might be married men, but before battle, they must have avoided relations with their wives. I can't remember the details but it is something like that.