What is Predetermined?

[PinSeeker]

No its the little flock( Luke 12:32)= numbered literally.

Nope. All believers are the "little flock," which is not really little at all. They will number as the stars in the heavens and the grains of sand on the sea shore... that no one will be able to count.

Heaven isnt coming down...

God is very clear that heaven and earth will be one. Revelation 21 is very clear.

...it just means all will be before the throne. protected by Gods kingdom rule.

We are co-heirs with Christ Jesus.

The Jehovah's Witness understanding (as are those along the same lines) is... well, quite in error.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Keiw]

You are a living soul/spirit, that exists inside the body that is on the earth.
Your body is dying, and your spirit never will, and its going somewhere once that body gets put to bed in the earth with a shovel.

Where will you go?

2 Choices.

Heaven or Hell.
There is no 3rd.

You get to choose.
Choose wisely, BECAUSE= God WILL honor your choice for eternity, after your body dies and your spirit meets Him.
Believe it.

Not what the bible teaches. Prov 2:21-22-Matt 24:22--unless those days( trib and harmageddon) no flesh would be saved)--mortals remain on earth= the great crowd no man can number--Rev 20:7-9--Gog of Magog attacks Gods holy ones on earth after the 1000 year reign of Christ which is after the tribulation and Har-mageddon. So your teachers are not telling the truth. The little flock are the only ones promised heaven-Rev 14:3= 144,000-literal.

 

[Keiw]

Nope. All believers are the "little flock," which is not really little at all. They will number as the stars in the heavens and the grains of sand on the sea shore... that no one will be able to count.


God is very clear that heaven and earth will be one. Revelation 21 is very clear.


We are co-heirs with Christ Jesus.

The Jehovah's Witness understanding (as are those along the same lines) is... well, quite in error.

Grace and peace to you.

There is a little flock=144,000-( the first ressurection)Rev 20:6) and the other sheep John 10:16= the great crowd no man can number (Rev 7:9)-- talked about different because the great crowd does not leave earth-Prov 2:21-22-Matt 24:22--Rev 20:7-9-Gog of Magog attacks Gods holy ones on earth after the 1000 year reign of Christ which is way after the tribulation and Har-mageddon. After the second ressurection.Rev 20:5)
Its your teachers in error. Mine are 100% correct.

 

[PinSeeker]

There is a little flock=144,000-( the first ressurection)Rev 20:6)

Ah. Well... :) I agree that Revelation 20:6 (actually vv.4-6) describes the first resurrection, but for those of us who have been saved, we have experienced this first resurrection -- new birth in the Spirit, which Paul describes in Ephesians 2:

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up..." ~ resurrected us ~ "...with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus..."​

...even though we are (of course) not physically dead yet... have not experienced the first death. We are in the midst of the time period described in Revelation 20:4-6 right now.

...and the other sheep John 10:16= the great crowd no man can number (Rev 7:9)

They are all the same... God's Israel, part of the remnant God has saved for Himself. As Paul says in Romans 11, "Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved."

...talked about different because the great crowd does not leave earth-Prov 2:21-22-Matt 24:22--Rev 20:7-9

Yeah, nobody "leaves earth," ever, except for those who are sent away by Jesus at the conclusion of the final Judgment, which occurs upon/very shortly after His return and the second resurrection (Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 25:31-46, John 5:28-29, Revelation 20:7-15). This is all one really big event, happening in very short order.

Gog of Magog attacks Gods holy ones on earth after the 1000 year reign of Christ which is way after the tribulation and Har-mageddon. After the second ressurection.Rev 20:5)

Well, at the end of the current age. Christ is reigning right now from heaven, along with those who are in Christ who have passed, who are, in the words of Revelation 20, coming to life and reigning with Christ over the course of this age. And this will continue until His return, at which time Israel will be complete, which will close out the present age, "these last days," as the writer of Hebrews puts it in Hebrews 1:2, in which God has spoken to us by his Son. The Millennium of Revelation 20 is not a literal 1000-year period and not future only but going on right now (since Pentecost and lasting until Jesus's return. It is symbolic of the fullness of God's time in bringing Israel to completion, which, again, is what Paul is saying in Romans 11, cited above and again here, that "a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in... (a)nd in this way all Israel will be saved." Christ's millennial reign from heaven and the tribulation (the time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30, Matthew 24:6-8, 1 Thessalonians 5:3, are concurrent events, and we are in the midst of both, now. God never promises to remove us from trial/tribulation/trouble, but to walk with us in the midst of it, as Psalm 23 says so eloquently and magnificently (through David; emphasis added):

"The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want. He makes me lie down in green pastures. He leads me beside still waters. He restores my soul. He leads me in paths of righteousness for his name’s sake. Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for You are with me; Your rod and your staff, they comfort me. You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies; You anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I shall dwell in the house of the LORD forever."​

Its your teachers in error. Mine are 100% correct.

You're more than welcome to your opinion. Mine, regarding you is right along the lines of what Paul says in 2 Timothy 4:3-4, where he writes, "For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths."

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Keiw]

Ah. Well... :) I agree that Revelation 20:6 (actually vv.4-6) describes the first resurrection, but for those of us who have been saved, we have experienced this first resurrection -- new birth in the Spirit, which Paul describes in Ephesians 2:

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up..." ~ resurrected us ~ "...with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus..."​

...even though we are (of course) not physically dead yet... have not experienced the first death. We are in the midst of the time period described in Revelation 20:4-6 right now.


They are all the same... God's Israel, part of the remnant God has saved for Himself. As Paul says in Romans 11, "Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved."


Yeah, nobody "leaves earth," ever, except for those who are sent away by Jesus at the conclusion of the final Judgment, which occurs upon/very shortly after His return and the second resurrection (Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 25:31-46, John 5:28-29, Revelation 20:7-15). This is all one really big event, happening in very short order.


Well, at the end of the current age. Christ is reigning right now from heaven, along with those who are in Christ who have passed, who are, in the words of Revelation 20, coming to life and reigning with Christ over the course of this age. And this will continue until His return, at which time Israel will be complete, which will close out the present age, "these last days," as the writer of Hebrews puts it in Hebrews 1:2, in which God has spoken to us by his Son. The Millennium of Revelation 20 is not a literal 1000-year period and not future only but going on right now (since Pentecost and lasting until Jesus's return. It is symbolic of the fullness of God's time in bringing Israel to completion, which, again, is what Paul is saying in Romans 11, cited above and again here, that "a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in... (a)nd in this way all Israel will be saved." Christ's millennial reign from heaven and the tribulation (the time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30, Matthew 24:6-8, 1 Thessalonians 5:3, are concurrent events, and we are in the midst of both, now. God never promises to remove us from trial/tribulation/trouble, but to walk with us in the midst of it, as Psalm 23 says so eloquently and magnificently (through David; emphasis added):

"The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want. He makes me lie down in green pastures. He leads me beside still waters. He restores my soul. He leads me in paths of righteousness for his name’s sake. Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for You are with me; Your rod and your staff, they comfort me. You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies; You anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I shall dwell in the house of the LORD forever."​

You're more than welcome to your opinion. Mine, regarding you is right along the lines of what Paul says in 2 Timothy 4:3-4, where he writes, "For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths."

Grace and peace to you.

The first resurrection occurs during the tribulation, they will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. The little flock. Not many are on earth today. most lived back in Jesus day. Yes your beliefs are myths.

 

[PinSeeker]

The first resurrection occurs during the tribulation...

Well I agree with this, but your understanding of this tribulation is erroneous.

...they will be changed in the twinkling of an eye.

Well yes, when Jesus returns. 1 Corinthians 15:52. Sure. Which is at the close of the tribulation period/age.

The little flock. Not many are on earth today. most lived back in Jesus day.

We can't really know this. All we really know is that ultimately, it ~ Israel, God's Israel ~ will consist of a multitude of persons, greater than anyone can number, from every tongue, tribe, and nation.

Yes your beliefs are myths.

LOL! :)

Grace and peace to you, Keiw.

 

[Keiw]

Well I agree with this, but your understanding of this tribulation is erroneous.


Well yes, when Jesus returns. 1 Corinthians 15:52. Sure. Which is at the close of the tribulation period/age.


We can't really know this. All we really know is that ultimately, it ~ Israel, God's Israel ~ will consist of a multitude of persons, greater than anyone can number, from every tongue, tribe, and nation.


LOL! :)

Grace and peace to you, Keiw.

The little flock are numbered-144,000-these are bought from the earth-Rev 14:3--The great crowd remains on earth. Jesus comes back at Har-mageddon, yes at the end of the trib. Matt 24:22-shows some will be saved=Great crowd. Prov 2:21-22 shows they remain on earth.. Literal Israel is cut off-Matt 23:38-39. Its your teachers who are wrong.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

The little flock are numbered-144,000-these are bought from the earth-Rev 14:3--The great crowd remains on earth. Jesus comes back at Har-mageddon, yes at the end of the trib. Matt 24:22-shows some will be saved=Great crowd. Prov 2:21-22 shows they remain on earth.. Literal Israel is cut off-Matt 23:38-39. Its your teachers who are wrong.

you JW are wrong on everything, deceived even. Leave that cult and get actual salvation.

 

[Keiw]

you JW are wrong on everything, deceived even. Leave that cult and get actual salvation.

Few will find the road Jesus said
2 billion trinity god servers
8 million JW,s. No thanks i know 100% Jesus heads the JW religion. They listen to him. They are not a divided house that will not stand. This is who Jesus said to serve-John 4:22-24--His God and Father-John 20:17, Rev 3:12

 

[PinSeeker]

One wonders why ~ or if ~ Jehovah's Witness subjects listen to Jesus at all, since they do not believe He is God as He Himself proclaimed and showed Himself (many times) to be, even assigning the Name of God to Himself. So they don't listen to what he said in any those instances, and they don't listen to Him in His foretelling the coming and resulting guardianship of the Holy Spirit, the third Person of the triune Jehovah, denying the Spirit's existence altogether, thereby indirectly labeling Jesus as a liar. That's a big problem (to put it mildly), but it is what it is, I guess.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Keiw]

One wonders why ~ or if ~ Jehovah's Witness subjects listen to Jesus at all, since they do not believe He is God as He Himself proclaimed and showed Himself (many times) to be, even assigning the Name of God to Himself. So they don't listen to what he said in any those instances, and they don't listen to Him in His foretelling the coming and resulting guardianship of the Holy Spirit, the third Person of the triune Jehovah, denying the Spirit's existence altogether, thereby indirectly labeling Jesus as a liar. That's a big problem (to put it mildly), but it is what it is, I guess.

Grace and peace to all.

Actually this is the truth he teaches-John 20:17, Rev 3:12--John 4:22-24--- John 17:3--teaches , the one who sent him=Father is THE ONLY TRUE GOD. He does not teach 2 different truths. Best to believe Jesus over twisted dogmas.

 

[PinSeeker]

Best to believe Jesus over twisted dogmas.

Exactly my point. The New World Translation is not all bad... :) ... much of it is, well, reengineered to express things quite opposed to the Hebrew (Old Testament) and Greek (New Testament) texts of the Bible, especially concerning the nature of the triune Jehovah and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit individually.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Keiw]

Exactly my point. The New World Translation is not all bad... :) ... much of it is, well, reengineered to express things quite opposed to the Hebrew (Old Testament) and Greek (New Testament) texts of the Bible, especially concerning the nature of the triune Jehovah and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit individually.

Grace and peace to you.

You have it backwards. The religion that came out of Rome was headed by satan and beat the majority living now centuries ago. It was they who mistranslated much. The Jw,s were allowed into catholicism archives and came out with proof-The spirit, water and blood were the 3 who bore witness, not the Father, son, and spirit like in many bibles. some corrected that error after the proof was found. But then they couldnt go back in. Otherwise would have found more proofs of errors.

 

[PinSeeker]

You have it backwards. The religion that came out of Rome was headed by satan and beat the majority living now centuries ago. It was they who mistranslated much. The Jw,s were allowed into catholicism archives and came out with proof-The spirit, water and blood were the 3 who bore witness, not the Father, son, and spirit like in many bibles. some corrected that error after the proof was found. But then they couldnt go back in. Otherwise would have found more proofs of errors.

So goes the Watchtower narrative. It's very... creative (in several ways). :) At any rate, time and truth are on the same side.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Keiw]

So goes the Watchtower narrative. It's very... creative (in several ways). :) At any rate, time and truth are on the same side.

Grace and peace to you.

Jesus tells all who to worship-John 4:22-24--If you want to be his follower-believe him. The Israelites NEVER served a trinity because God is not a trinity.

 

[kcnalp]

God created everything and everyone exactly as He pleased.

Proverbs 16:4 (NKJV)
4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

 

[kcnalp]

You can only conclude as you do kcnalp if you dismiss the factor of love. God's love makes him vulnerable as is anyone who loves. It means those who love can be exploited. It means Jesus was a man of sorrows acquainted with grief. It means Jesus would rather allow himself to be killed than kill.

This view is an outrage to the natural man subsequently they invent gods who are never emotionally involved with their subjects except for hate.

God is vulnerable? Not my God!

 

[quietthinker]

God is vulnerable? Not my God!

You might then consider the God you have?
Jesus died because he loved. It was his love that restrained any violence on his part.

Are you violent towards the ones you love? do you control them?....maybe you are? maybe what you understand as love is mere lip service to an idea?

Love means, those whom you love can have their way with you!

 

[kcnalp]

You might then consider the God you have?
Jesus died because he loved. It was his love that restrained any violence on his part.

Are you violent towards the ones you love? do you control them?....maybe you are? maybe what you understand as love is mere lip service to an idea?

Love means, those whom you love can have their way with you!

Your god is vulnerable? Then your god is not the Christian God. What is your god vulnerable to?

 

[kcnalp]

Are you violent towards the ones you love?

No, are you?

do you control them?

No, I'm not God.

....maybe you are?

Honestly that sounds like Satanic accusations.

maybe what you understand as love is mere lip service to an idea?

Why are you making false accusations like Satan's children do?

Love means, those whom you love can have their way with you!

What does that have to do with God of the Bible who drowned all but 8 "making them an example"?