amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Yes indeed . Beware of those who love to wear big fancy clothes and have people bow down to them and call them
reverand this or that . Beware them indeed and heed them not .
HERESY?
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reverand this or that . Beware them indeed and heed them not .
Moriah's Song
Well-Known Member
The Trinity is one of the mysteries of the faith,
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.
1 Corinthians 4
New King James Version
Stewards of the Mysteries of God
1 Let a man so consider us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Moreover it is required in stewards that one be found faithful. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human [a]court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. 4 For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God.
AND
1 Timothy 3:8-10
New King James Version
Qualifications of Deacons
8 Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money,
9 holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. 10 But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless.
Question:
Hasn't the mystery of the faith in 1 Timothy 3:9 been revealed?
The mystery that has now been made known...
Ephesians 3:1-6
1For this reason I, Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles—
2 assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace that was given to me for you,
3 how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly.
4 When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ,
5 which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.
6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
I do agree that there are mysteries which we can understand to a certain point but not fully.
Time would be one of them. Who can understand eternity?
Who can understand what was before God created the universe?
What does NOTHING mean? No one really knows.
I find that I can understand the Trinity more and more as I read about it and study it.
It was much more a mystery in my early days of reading the bible.
I find the best explanation for the Trinity in John 1...In the beginning was the word...
The Holy Spirit would be the same.
And, I'd have to say that even though we cannot fully understand the Trinity, perhaps we could just accept it by faith.
Because we don't understand something does not mean it doesn't exist.
:)
Well Paul still describes this as the mystery of the faith, and to be held in a good conscience without doubting.
The Trinity simply is, but we really don't know the intimate details of the mind of God in the Trinity, as like Pauls says, who has known the mind of the LORD GOD to be His counselor.
One of the mysteries of the faith is how he chose us for salvation from before time began, while passing by others.
We are simply told this is because of His great love for US. These are the mysteries of the faith as well written in scripture, but their exists also the mystery of lawlessness, Satan is a lawlessone as he will not submit to the law of God.
Ecclesiastes 3:11
He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end.
Acts 15:18
“Known to God from eternity are all His works.
Hebrews 4
3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:
“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ”
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”
2 Timothy 1:8-10
New King James Version
Not Ashamed of the Gospel
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
2 Thessalonians 2
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Are you of the reformed faith?
I ask because I fear how you might understand some of the above verses.
I understand verses as they are written. I do not go to a reformed church, but the scriptures are what they are.
Unless you twist them into something else, which many do by redefining the meanings of words. Then it is an attack on the integrity of scripture. People make a big show, fuss, condemnation of others about not changing the scriptures from what is written, yet then they go and do it everyday in what they say.
Here is another heresy, Women pastors teaching men. But I am certain some of you don't think so.
In a church women are specifically prohibited from teaching men by one of the chosen apostles of the Lord Jesus, can you guess who and why?
That was as a result of the fall in Eden. Not everything about that fall has been erased for those in Christ, proof of that is that death entered the world and people still die.
In a church women are specifically prohibited from teaching men by one of the chosen apostles of the Lord Jesus, can you guess who and why?
That was as a result of the fall in Eden. Not everything about that fall has been erased for those in Christ, proof of that is that death entered the world and people still die.
Another heresy is divorced women or men remarrying when the former spouse is still living. Jesus and Paul say that is adultery. Sorry but there is no escape from that. It is clearly stated that separation is the only acceptable action, not remarriage.
Many of you likely disagree strongly then with scripture and have a private understanding which differs from what is said by twisting the words, cause you want to be remarried and the first, second, third one fails. Annulments are just nullifying the word of God, something also strongly spoken against by Christ.
A person is not bound is such matters to remain with the spouse. if they can not reconcile, they can separate, but they can not remarry.
10 Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband.
11 But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband is not to divorce his wife.
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.
15 But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace.
39 A wife is bound by law as long as her husband lives; but if her husband dies, she is at liberty to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord
Not under bondage, means only they can separate, not marry again.
Many of you likely disagree strongly then with scripture and have a private understanding which differs from what is said by twisting the words, cause you want to be remarried and the first, second, third one fails. Annulments are just nullifying the word of God, something also strongly spoken against by Christ.
A person is not bound is such matters to remain with the spouse. if they can not reconcile, they can separate, but they can not remarry.
10 Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband.
11 But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband is not to divorce his wife.
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.
15 But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace.
39 A wife is bound by law as long as her husband lives; but if her husband dies, she is at liberty to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord
Not under bondage, means only they can separate, not marry again.
I just love his music, so much fun as well as fantastically good. But perhaps this is not the place to discuss it I shall start a new thread.
OzSpen
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GodsGrace,
I've written a brief article to answer the question you have posed here: What is heresy?
Oz
Again
If we take a closer look at this verse you will see that it does not mean that at all. The phrase in question is Mighty God, and the proper understanding of Everlasting Father is a must. First, Mighty God.
Not all Bibles use the translation of Mighty for the Hebrew word gibbor. The Jewish translators of the Septaugint render it in the following manner, "The angel of great council." Angel meaning messenger. But we will address the ones that do just for arguments sake. First of all, we will take a close look at the Hebrew word that is translated as Mighty. Translators have used Mighty for theological reasons, (so they can tie it in to other verses that God is referred to as mighty, and thus claim that the Messiah is supposed to be God). Let’s see what a Hebrew dictionary and a Hebrew lexicon tells us about this word.
The Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary defines this word as:
Gibbor – by impl. warrior, tyrant:- champion, chief, X excel, giant, man, mighty (man, one), valiant man. Mighty is the eighth definition of this word.
The Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon says of this word gibbor as it is used in Isaiah 9: 5:
Isaiah 9:5 - ref. Messiah, attribute of God especially as fighting for his people. This explanation doesn’t even mention Mighty.
According to these sources, gibbor as it is used in Isaiah 9:5 along with God means, a warrior king with the attributes of God. This is exactly who the Messiah is supposed to be. This definition agrees with the rest of the chapter in which Isaiah talks about how the Messiah will reign on David’s throne, and how he will rule with justice and righteousness forever because of the zeal of the LORD Almighty. Isaiah does not believe that the Messiah is supposed to be God, he distinguishes between them. He says how the Messiah will accomplish everything because of the zeal of the LORD Almighty. We can also compare this chapter to Isaiah 11 in which he is again speaking of the Messiah. In Isaiah 11: 1-3 he says how the Messiah will be from the root of Jesse, how the Spirit of the LORD will rest on him, and how he will delight in the fear of the LORD. Now, are we supposed to believe that the LORD will delight in the fear of Himself? Definitely not. Isaiah prophesying about the Messiah says:
Isaiah 49:5: "And I am made glorious in the sight of the LORD, and MY GOD is my strength."
From Isaiah 49:5 and 11:1-3 we can see that Isaiah understands the future Messiah to be a man on whom God's spirit will rest (which is the meaning of the word "Christ") who will delight in the fear of his God, the LORD. Isaiah does not consider the Messiah to be God in Isaiah 11:1-3 nor in Isaiah 49:5, and neither does he believe that in Isaiah 9: 5.
The definition of the Messiah as a warrior king with the attributes of God, is seen in Revelation 19: 11 where it reads:
"Then I saw heaven standing open and there was before me a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war."
Now we will look at some other translations to see how they have interpreted this verse.
The New English Bible says, "In battle God-like."
The New American Bible (which is a Catholic Bible, they invented the trinity) says, "God- Hero." It translates this verse in the following manner and has a note on this verse which is very interesting and enlightening. First the translation. It states: "They name him Wonder-Counselor, God-Hero, Father-Forever, Prince of Peace."
Footnote:
"Wonder- Counselor: remarkable for his wisdom and prudence. God-Hero: a warrior and defender of his people, like God himself.
Father-forever: ever devoted to his people. Prince of peace: his reign will be characterized by peace."
This exegesis is in complete agreement with the definitions and Bible passage that we have just examined. Remember, this is the Catholic Church’s interpretation, I am sure that they would love to be able to say that according to this passage the Messiah is supposed to be God, but even they don’t.
We can also substantiate this definition by looking at another verse of the same writer in Isaiah 22: 20- 21:
"In that day I will summon my servant Eliakim son of Hilkiah. I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah."
Isaiah obviously does not mean that Eliakim is God the Father. In Isaiah 9:5 he means that the Messiah as king of the new Israel (the kingdom of God) will be like a father to his people forever.
This matches what I found using e-sword's net Bible...
You can buy the expanded e-sword edition of the Net Bible. Please do so as it’s loaded with extra data and variant readings. Just a note. The net people believe in the trinity yet look how they handle this verse. Note the red numbers for reference to the comments. They did a good job of trying to be non-bias here.
Net Bible Isa 9:6 For a child has been15 born to us, son has been given to us. He shoulders Responsibility and is called:16 Extraordinary Strategist,17 Mighty God,18 Everlasting Father,19 Prince of Peace.20
17 Since Isa_11:2 points out that this king will receive the spirit of the Lord, which will enable him to counsel, it is possible to argue that the king's counsel is "extraordinary" because it finds its source in the divine spirit. (Anointed) Thus this title does not necessarily suggest that the ruler is deity
18 tn âÌÄáÌåÉø (gibbor) is probably an attributive adjective ("mighty God"), though one might translate "God is a warrior" or "God is mighty." Scholars have interpreted this title is two ways. A number of them have argued that the title portrays the king as God's representative on the battlefield, whom God empowers in a supernatural way (see J. H. Hayes and S. A. Irvine, Isaiah, 181-82). They contend that this sense seems more likely in the original context of the prophecy. They would suggest that having read the NT, we might in retrospect interpret this title as indicating the coming king's deity, but it is unlikely that Isaiah or his audience would have understood the title in such a bold way. Psa_45:6 addresses the Davidic king as "God" because he ruled and fought as God's representative on earth.
19 tn This title must not be taken in an anachronistic Trinitarian sense. (To do so would be theologically problematic, for the "Son" is the messianic king and is distinct in his person from God the "Father.") Rather, in its original context the title pictures the king as the protector of his people. For a similar use of "father" see Isa_22:21 and Job_29:16. This figurative, idiomatic use of "father" is not limited to the Bible. In a Phoenician inscription (ca. 850-800 B.C.) the ruler Kilamuwa declares: "To some I was a father, to others I was a mother." In another inscription (ca. 800 B.C.) the ruler Azitawadda boasts that the god Baal made him "a father and a mother" to his people. (See ANET 499-500.) The use of "everlasting" might suggest the deity of the king (as the one who has total control over eternity), but Isaiah and his audience may have understood the term as royal hyperbole emphasizing the king's long reign or enduring dynasty (for examples of such hyperbolic language used of the Davidic king, see 1Ki_1:31; Psa_21:4-6; Psa_61:6-7; Psa_72:5; Psa_72:17)...
20 tn This title pictures the king as one who establishes a safe socio-economic environment for his people. It hardly depicts him as a meek individual, for he establishes peace through military strength (as the preceding context and the first two royal titles indicate). His people experience safety and prosperity because their invincible king destroys their enemies. See Psalms 72 and 144 for parallels to these theme.
Also important to note are the words in the verse. You will note most of the translations read… “will be called” or “shall be called” This is more of a concept of agency than actually being. There is a big difference between being call something, as in(agency) and actually being. No translations ever read “He Is. ”
This verse is actually a great example of how a western mind like yours can read a verse literally and come away with a completely wrong impression. The Hebraic back ground is needed to fully understand this verse as it was intended to be understood!
Thus... just posting scripture without knowing who translated it or why does not prove your point...!!! I showed you how the very translators of this verse disagrees with your understanding!!! Can you do better?
Paul
I never said the Creator and Maker is the created and made... I said the Creator and Maker is the God of Jesus.... Your confused...
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Who made the heavens and the earth Taken???
1.God
2.Jesus
If you answered 2... you need to go back and read scripture
Who does Jesus claim made the heavens and the earth?
Mar 13:19 Mar 13:19 "For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.
What God is Jesus talking about???
Joh 20:17 Jesus *said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"
What your claiming is worse... Much worse!
On the authority of Jesus himself we know that the categories of "flesh" and "spirit" are never to be confused or intermingled, though the course of God's Spirit can impact our world. Jesus said, "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit" (John 3:6). And "God is Spirit." The doctrine of the incarnation confuses these categories. What God has separated you have joined together! One of the charges that the apostle Paul levels at simple man is that we have "exchange the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man" (Romans 1:23). Has it ever dawned on you as you sit in church listening to how the glorious Creator made Himself into a man that you could be guilty of this very same thing? The doctrine of the incarnation has reduced the incorruptible God to our own corruptible image. We are made in God's image, not the other way around. It would be more appropriate to put this contrast in starker terms. The defining characteristic of the Creator God is his absolute holiness. God is utterly different from and so utterly transcendent over His creation that any confusion is forbidden!
Paul
Moriah's Song
Well-Known Member
You can write all you want but the verse still indicates the Trinity...“For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” (Isaiah 9:6)
Isa 9:7...Of the increase of [the Messiah's] government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over [Jesus'] kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this.
Strong's - Almighty: g3841 - παντοκράτωρ - pantokratōr
"almighty, or ruler of all" (pas, "all," krateo, "to hold, or to have strength"), is used of God only, and is found, in the Epistles, only in 2Cr 6:18, where the title is suggestive in connection with the context; elsewhere only in the Apocalypse, nine times. In one place, Rev 19:6, the AV has "omnipotent;" RV, "(the Lord our God,) the Almighty." The word is introduced in the Sept. as a translation of "Lord (or God) of hosts," e.g., Jer 5:14 and Amo 4:13.
Rev 1:4...John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne,
Rev 1:8..."I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty. {It's the "I am."}
Rev 21:6...And he said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end.
Rev 22:13...I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
Rev 22:13...I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
Rev 4:8...And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all round and within, and day and night they never cease to sing, "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!"
Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon
אֵל גִּבּוֺר - the Messiah Isaiah 9:5;
אֵל גִּבּוֺר - a mighty hero. [The mighty God: Christ is spoken of.] Isa. 9:5; 10:21;
אֵל גִּבּוֺר - a mighty hero. [The mighty God: Christ is spoken of.] Isa. 9:5; 10:21;
Isaiah 10:21... "A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God."
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Jim B
Well-Known Member
Okay, but does that also apply to people who call them "reverend"? If reverends should categorically disbelieved, who else, in your opinion, should be disbelieved? And specifically why you we distrust them and trust you?
Taken
Well-Known Member
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