When we see things BEGIN to happen -Rapture
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Imagining that Jesus will not take up into the air those who believe in Him is not His ministry.
He already spoke.
Being cast from heaven or some church is not the same thing.
Don't conflate your made up doctrines with anything God does.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Yes. People will all die in the final harvest. That is the point of the final harvest. It is the end of life for both the Sheep and the Goats. One to eternal life, and one to eternal damnation. The judge, Jesus Christ the Prince declared their earthly life over. Same with the tares and wheat. The tares are burned up. The wheat is put in the barn/waiting on Mt. Zion. 2 billion harvested in the Seals. 2 billion in the Trumpets. 2 billion in the Thunders. Then there is the church separate, not physically killed, and the rest killed at Armageddon. All physically dead.
Then in Revelation 20:4 those whom will rule and reign are resurrected and physically live on earth.
Oh? When is that?
Sheep actually never die.
Not sure if you are conflating the final white throne judgment with the return of Jesus.
There are plenty alive in the 1000 years. So you should be clear.
That has what to do with the Rapture?
You cite your guess as if it were certain.
Since you don't know when the judgments are and conflate them apparently. Why would anyone care what numbers you dream up or what you think the trumpets or thunders are?
Having fun making stuff up? Strange you would dare to post it.
Interesting point. The trib saints rule with us and the rest of the dead do not until the 1000 years are over.
Since the church is to excommunicate brothers living in unrepentant sins, to not even eat with them, and you acknowledge that they are still saved even after being excommunicated, then what do God is going to do at the rapture event but to excommunicate those found in iniquity to not eat with them at the Marriage Supper above.
That is why Jesus is warning believers to be ready or else.
There is no point to warn them to be ready by looking for the signs if they are going to be taken regardless. This is about being found abiding in Him as His disciples to avoid becoming like the prodigal son losing his inheritance but still son. That is the point of reference regarding Esau for giving up his birthright for a meal and wept bitterly for it for why there will be weeping & gnashing of teeth when unrepentant carnal but saved believers and former but still saved believers are denied by the Bridegroom in being left behind. They are weeping, because they can never be that vessel unto honor in His House once the doors to the Marriage Supper is shut but still saved, only to be damned as vessels unto dishonor, vessels of wood & earth, but still in His House to testify to the power of God in salvation for all those that believe in Him, even in His name, are saved.
God will have vengeance on His people.
1 Thessalonians 4:6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
Not only for that, but for other iniquities as well, like not doing communion only for the remembrance of Him, but treating the bread & the wine as idols as if His Presence is in them and to treat communion as if His one time offering for sins is made present to be received again, thus treating the blood of the Covenant on par with the blood of goats & bulls that it needs repeating for the forgiveness of sin to be saved again.
Hebrews 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
There is to be only remembrance of what Christ has done for us on the cross, that He has saved us proclaiming His death in that way when taking communion as it will be evident below by the Holy Ghost being in us as witnessed to that salvation for having believed in Jesus Christ.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
For believers to take that to mean only for sins that is past for why they believe communion bears repeating to take that one time offering for sin again for the forgiveness of sins since last communion is denying their salvation by not only doing it in remembrance of Him.
This is the warning for doing communion after having that knowledge that there is no more offering for sins, not even to make His one time offering for sins to be made "present" to "receive again" as if on par with the blood of goats and bulls that bears repeating.
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
That IS the sin that believers commit willingly after knowing there is no more offering for sins after salvation, but that it needs to be received again, treating the blood of the covenant on par with the blood of goats and bulls.
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
That is not going to happen in Heaven at the rapture event when the Marriage Supper is to be held in celebration.
This is also why Satan, as the accuser of our brethren, will be shut out and cast down to earth, knowing his time is short now for why he will wage war on the saints & new believers left behind paralleling the point of why the church is to excommunicate.
1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
As the church is supposed to do in these latter days but hardly doing, God will do it for the Marriage Supper above against those not found abiding in Him nor those loving this life more than Him that they do not want to go when He comes for why we should also pray for His help to escape what is coming on the earth after the rapture event. Luke 17:26-37 & Luke 21:33-36
Like it or not, the rapture event is WHEN God will judge His House first because of the falling away from the faith for why there is a terror of the Lord on our conscience, even though those saints left behind to die, their spirits will be with the Lord.
1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
That is why running that race is not for obtaining salvation but we labor so we may be accepted by Him when He comes as the Bridegroom since those saints left behind are saved, but disqualified and thus reprobate as to be denied attendance to the Marriage super above.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Hey TRUE Bible study brethren! (not some of those here who cannot even say five words without steering away from God's Word as written), I'm going to cover Christ's Olivet discourse like it is actually written in God's Word, instead of playing dr. skippy, one-verse charlie, like the OP here. Be looking for it.
No Pre-TB
Well-Known Member
Davy, Why are you in the habit of bad mouthing others on the forums for their views? Yes, some of them may be wrong. Yes, in some areas you may be right. But your words are a perfect example of lacking love.
You started with true Bible study brothern. But studying the word is only 1 part. Those who truly study arnt always the children of God, but the doers of his word in faith are counted as the children.
What kind of Christian testimony do you have calling a fellow believer “one verse Charlie like the OP here” or various other comments in multiple threads. No one can take you seriously if you cannot even show a little grace. What part of your reply above was spirit filled and of God?
Davy
Well-Known Member
What I said was REBUKE for that deceiver who bore FALSE WITNESS against me. And I'll say it even further, MAY GOD REBUKE HIM.
That's all the FAKES on forums know how to do anyway, they try to destroy the credibility of those that don't agree with them, or that clearly show how their Biblical understanding is actually in the gutter with the devil.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Guess who said this to me?
"Let's not pick out a verse or two and try to limit all signs to that. In those verses He Himself pointed out that was not the signs in question. However look at the whole passage."
Want to see how I do not... skip verses? Then checkout my coverage of Matthew 24 about Christ's Olivet discourse.
And what does 'skip verses' means anyway, as long as one is 'staying'.. within the Scripture context? It's just an excuse to bypass... what Scripture actually shows, that's why he said that above quote at me, because it clearly did not agree with the junk he is teaching.
A denomination is not heaven. Nor is a brother always actually a brother. In the end for example we see many shall cleave to the believers with flatteries. In the 12 apostles one was not genuine and right with God in heart. In the early church there were similar issues. Just like in ancient Israel, sometimes people were cut off. None of this means that God is not going to fulfill His word and take believers (even some that are less than perfect) into the air to meet Him. He knows the hearts. There is nothing to suggest that only the people that worship on Sat at a church will be taken up. Nothing to suggest that only those that never broke a commandment will be taken etc etc. You seek to impose church ordinances on the coming of Christ. He did not do that. In the end, as we know, most churches are in really bad shape, so whatever they decide on who is cool or obeying or not is basically worthless anyhow! Jesus Himself probably couldn't get in to some of these outfits called churches if He were around today.
Yes there is or He would not have done it. The point is that we need to be saved. Otherwise we do not go.
The prodigal son lost his cash and job. Not his salvation. He later regained it. If the rapture happened then the son would have been taken from the pig pen! He was still a son.
They are weeping because they were not saved. Not because they paid too much for soup!
His judgments are not vengeance for His people. A parent is not taking revenge and vengeance against a little child when they discipline them for their own good!
Yes God is watching and deals with His children. That does not mean that His children will be left to the wrath in the end if they forgot to pay a bill!
There were many sins committed, and many of those by false brethren. But He does not leave His child behind if they forgot to wash their hands at communion or whatever. Once again you seem to be looking for excuses why God will abandon His children.
Jesus DID take away sins. He promised to also take US away!
Paul clarifies that a few verses down
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
If we are saved we do not count His blood as a bad thing!
You are assigning reasons for which God does things. I do not see any verse that says the whole or big reason God sends Satan ito earth in the end is because He was afraid the old boy would harass His marriage feast! Try to remember to state your (unsupportable) opinions as such, rather that as some sort of fact.
Nothing to do with saved children of His being cast to the wolves and left out.
It is one thing not to invite people to your home for dinner, and another thing to make a formal declaration that they were never saved. None of that has anything to do with Jesus taking His Own as promised anyhow.
You seem to think the chief failing of the apostate church in the end is not treating brethren badly enough! Jesus commanded us to love. We are not 'escaping' the coming wrath of God so much as being airlifted out! That is escape, but we should be clear it is not our doing, but God's.
The judgment has more to do with rewards and the greatest party ever held in heaven, than tormenting some supposed believer left behind.
David was judged. God dealt with him severely. We all are in the same boat, He corrects us as a parent. That is for our good and benefit. God does not cast out His babies with the bad church water.
Being accepted at the judgment seat of Christ is not about salvation but works. rewards are given based on works there. Those who ran a good race get more rewards than those who sat in the benches. Nothing to do with God damning saved people.
Yes we should work to be acceptable to Him, that does not mean that only those with very good works meet Him in the air.
although 7 different kinds of churches has been addressed in the Book of Revelation, where five needed to repent while 2 needed to hold fast, there is only one body of Christ and those abiding in Him will be attending the Marriage Supper in Heaven while those not abiding in Him nor willing to go will be left behind to die to be resurrected later on after the great tribulation when that kingdom of heaven comes to earth.
As shared earlier those who have fallen away from the faith in these latter days due to this great apostasy of saved believers thinking they can receive the Holy Spirit again apart from salvation after a sensational supernatural sign; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-15. are the ones Paul is commanding us to withdraw from in 2 Thessalonians 3:1-7 but not to treat them as the enemy, but to admonish them as brothers which means they are still His.
2 Thessalonians 3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.
So we do not get to judge any one as not a brother, even those who have fallen away from the faith because they are still saved and why Jesus will be going for those lost sheep left behind because they have been bought with a price & sealed as His for He shall lose none ( John 6:37-40 ), but as the prodigal son gave up his inheritance for wild living & can never get it back, he is still son.
Chapter and verse?
2 Thessalonians 3:2
And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith
That would be unsaved. As for the people in the church that walked disorderly, keeping them at a distance has zero to do with the Rapture.
Great, so what? That has zero to do with the topic.
The Rapture is not an inheritance it is a promised event. The reward stuff comes after, when He passes out the rewards.
Been sharing the scripture in this thread supporting that message.
2 Thessalonians 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,
Paul is still talking about those that have fallen away from the faith in 2 Thessalonians 3:1-7 and still calls them brothers in 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15
It is obvious you are not hearing His words nor mine. I can only hope in Him that you are abiding in Him & is willing to go. Nuff said.
Conflating the saved and unsaved is not Scripture, it is an exercise in projecting opinion onto Scripture.
Nothing to do with the Rapture. That is just good advice.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
The GWT is for the dead.
The Second Coming is for the living. The GT is taking all the current 8 billion of Adam's flesh and blood and sending them to their eternal state. Death during the GT, I am referring to is physical. That is the only way to shed Adam's flesh and blood.
Of course the sheep and wheat are not going to taste death. Even having one's head chopped off to avoid the mark is not tasting death. The resurrection in Revelation 20:4 is no different for them, than those who have died in the last 1991 years, that you all claim are waiting for the Second Coming.
The sheep are judged while still alive. Why would they ever be judged again at Revelation 20:4 or even the GWT? Matthew 25:31-33
"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left."
This is a judgment, and no I do not conflate it with Revelation 20:4, nor the GWT. Do you?
Of course you do if you are post trib, and call the battle of Armageddon the Second Coming. It is all there in Scripture, and, if one were to rightly divide the Word of God.
So not topical to the Rapture then. OK
The thread is about the Rapture when He comes for His saints not when He comes back with them later.
Well, actually there are multitudes that are saved in that time. Anything but dead.
I don't need to shed. Jesus will take care of that.
The thing is that the Tribulation is after the Rapture, so the heads get taken off after.
Right, the thing is that we were Raptured long before this. Try to focus on the topic.
Our rewards are passed out in heaven after the Rapture. That is when we get judged. Not for salvation or no salvation, but for rewards for works. Of course Jesus takes care of business when He returns as far as the world goes at that time.
No. The second coming is when He returns with us from heaven.
Except you conflate judgments, and events, and pretty well everything else.
That's the problem, you don't understand who the dead are, nor do you know the purpose of the millennium.
Revelation Chapter 20 will help you
Chapter 20 of the Book of Revelation covers the first days of the Millennium, when Jesus Christ comes to earth to establish His kingdom. This chapter runs close to the prophecies of Ezekiel in the last eight (8) chapters of the book of Ezekiel. "Millennium" means "1,000 years". This period is basically a 1,000 years of teaching and learning.
Jesus Christ will be with us here on earth in His kingdom then. There will be teaching and discipline, and many people saved in this Millennium period. Most of the people saved today will not be reigning with Christ in the Millennium, because they will throw their inheritance away very soon, when they choose to go whoring after the Antichrist. Some of these people are the ones who believe in the rapture theory. They will chase after the first messiah that appears on earth and not be part of the wedding between Christ and His bride (the church) at the sounding of the seventh trump.
Those who fall into the trap of the rapture theory doctrine can repent and be saved in the Millennium age, when their sins of following the Antichrist are committed in ignorance. You can even look at the Millennium kingdom as the "time of salvation", for many will accept and follow Christ in the Millennium. However the period of grace is for this age of the flesh only, for in the Millennium age salvation will be by their works only as we will see in this chapter. Due to the great apostasy there will be more saved out of the Millennium, than during any other period of time.
The dead are those that although changed to their spiritual bodies still have a mortal soul, meaning they can die the 2nd death.
Revelation 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
Judgment is coming for the millions of Christian brothers and sisters who have lost their lives for the witness of Jesus Christ over the past two thousand years. Also receiving rewards are those that have not bowed to the Antichrist in the five month period of deception (coming up shortly), nor did they take his mark through the deception, nor accepted his ways (image) in their minds. If you believe in the rapture theory, you will worship Satan in error. Mark 13 and Matthew 24 makes it clear that the Antichrist will come first. The "rapture theory" teaches that you will be lifted out by the first messiah, and that first (false) messiah is the Antichrist.
Ezekiel 3:8, 9 tells us "our forehead" is our mind. The seal that is in our forehead is what we believe to be true in our minds. The "mark of the beast" is the knowledge you will possess in your mind. What you believe as truth will either cause you to be deceive, or prevent you from being deceived by the first (false) Christ into thinking he is the true messiah.
Revelation 20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."
If you are saved and make a stand against the Antichrist and his deceptions, you will reign with Christ 1,000 years.
Those who did take the "mark of the beast", their souls will not, I repeat, will not have an eternal spiritual body until they are tested after the millennium. I Corinthians 15:50-52 describes the mystery of the two bodies. The physical and spiritual bodies are two separate entities. There are also two spiritual bodies, one eternal, the other perishable (mortal). Those who take the mark of the beast will not have their eternal bodies at the seventh trump. Instead they will have mortal spiritual bodies (liable-to-die), and have to be taught again to learn the difference between 'the holy from the profane' for 1,000 years and then be tested at the end of it to earn that eternal body by choosing Jesus Christ.
What are we talking about when it says "the rest of the dead"? The difference in taking part in the first resurrection or not taking part hinges on whether or not they were deceived by the Antichrist. Remember, John has been taken in the Spirit to the last day before Christ's return.
Revelation 20 is talking about that specific day when the last trump sounds, and Jesus Christ our Lord is returning with His saints to the earth. This verse is not addressing those who died 50, 100, or at any time from any century prior to the sounding of the seventh trump. It is addressing the generation (our generation) who will live in the time of the seven seals, and those who will see some take Satan's mark (the mark of the beast) and give service to him.
I Corinthians 15:52 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."
The kingdom of God is wherever Jesus Christ is, and flesh and blood cannot exist in that kingdom. When Christ returns for the Millennium age here on earth, flesh and blood bodies will not exist.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
The reason there is a rapture is because that is when the Second Coming happens. The Second Coming is the 6th Seal even before the 7th Seal is opened.
The judgment of the sheep is when Christ is on His throne in His Temple. He has the book of life with Him on earth. The goats are removed from the Lamb's book of life and given eternal damnation. That is their judgment. The sheep remain in the Lamb's book of life, they are given eternal life. That judgment is going on during the Trumpets.
Then we have the harvest of angels in Matthew 13. That happens after the Trumpets during the Thunders. The tares are living humans sent to the Lake of fire. The wheat is placed into the barn. That is a judgment from that same throne as the sheep and goats. The literal application of these judgments during the GT, gives us the outcome of those who rule and reign on earth for the next 1000 years. These redeemed saints after the Second Coming are not the church in Paradise. They are the firstfruits of the Millennium Kingdom on earth.
None of the church is left behind at the rapture of the Second Coming. Those still redeemed will live on the earth for the next 1000 years. The church does not come back to earth until the New Jerusalem comes down after the NHNE.
The Second Coming brings Christ the Prince to earth. But the Lamb and the one on the throne have to end Adam's 6000 years of sin and death by sin. The tribulation is the period of time where all this mess is cleaned up by fire.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
First of all no one chases a rapture to mid air.
God gathers the church Himself into that mid air meeting. The Second Coming is prior to the time of GT.
So you have it wrong, because you chase after the life of flesh on earth waiting to be condemned at Armageddon, because you totally missed the Second Coming.
Revelation 20:4 clearly states only those beheaded. That means their head was literally chopped off. This is not symbolism. This is a literal physical bodily resurrection after a literal physical head is chopped off. Those resurrected into permanent incorruptible physical bodies do not need any teaching. They have offspring for 1000 years and as children they are taught about God. All other Adamic sin nature humans are dead, and waiting for the GWT after the 1000 years expire. If you want to see what happens during the Millennium read Isaiah 65 or Zechariah 14.
Scripture points out if these children rebel they are considered cursed and will physically die. Rebellion is not the natural human nature. Rebellion is just questioning the authority of one's parents. Who are under the authority of Christ the Prince. Parents today are under the authority of Christ, but under grace, and we do not kill rebellious offspring. That is the difference between the church on earth now, and living in the Millennium.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
No they do not say the AC comes first. The beast is the last thing that happens before the end of the 70th week. The beast only appears after the GT.
Do you conclude the fig tree budding is Israel becoming a nation? That is the last thing mentioned. If you go in that order, then the Second Coming already happened before 1948.
If you start with Israel becoming a nation and go backwards through the listed events, you will have the order they will happen.
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