When we see things BEGIN to happen -Rapture

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Christ4Me

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What verse makes you think that the people who were not invited in were also 'the kingdom of heaven'?

They were invited but not ready as they were of the ten virgins that are the kingdom of heaven.

You made that up. They had no salvation. It does not say they were saved. They were not saved/ready and so had no oil of course.
Strange Strawman argument.

No. The first two verses confirmed this. The ten virgins are the kingdom of heaven that went forth to meet the Bridegroom, but five were foolish for not being ready.

Matthew 25:1Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

I don't know about that sort of people. But I don't think that Jesus meant that all miracles are bad, just because some phonies supposedly claimed to have done some miracles.

Jesus identified the iniquity by how they broaden the way in the worship place to include the worship of the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son and that causes the offense because the Father can only be honored by honoring only the Son in worship John 5:22-23. And thinking they can approach the Father by way of the holy Ghost is also an iniquity per John 14:6 as Jesus is the only way we can come to God the Father by and He meant it "but by me". Climbing up any other way makes one a thief as it is the iniquity spoke n of here John 10:1

That is why in these visitations of spirits, miracles can happen, signs and lying wonders but Jesus deny them because they deny Him as the only way to come to God the Father by ( Matthew 7:21-23 ). That is why in those movements of the spirit, they fall backwards or lose self control in some form or fashion which Jesus said that is what they get for not heeding His words for why they all Matthew 7:24-27.

The solution to avoid that iniquity is to narrow the way back to the straight gate in coming to God the Father in worship by the only way of the Son ( Luke 13:24 ) in honoring only the Son in worship so that we are honoring the Father by in according to His will. That is the mind of Christ we are to have in worship Philippians 2:5-11 The consequence is to be left behind if we do not narrow the way back to the Son in worship Luke 13:24-30
 

Christ4Me

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I don't see three in scripture. Please cite the actual verses so we can see if there are three or not. Thanks.

Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

You have Christ's the firstfruits at the rapture event of O.T. saints & abiding N.T. saints before the great tribulation.

Those carnal saints & former believers not found abiding in Him will be excommunicated from the Marriage Supper in Heaven to be left behind on earth. Then the first angel will preach the gospel everywhere ( Revelation 14:6-13 ) by how there will be new believers too and then the end will come heralded by the 2nd angel as a fire will destroy a third of the earth ( the entire western hemisphere ) Revelation 8:7-13 which will serve as the catalyst for the New World Order & the third angel warning every one of the consequence of the lake of fire for taking the mark of the beast to buy & sell to survive in the rest of the 2/3rd parts of the world.

That is how the beast is waging war on the left behind saints & new believers to kill them with the sword and hunger during the great tribulation;

Anyway, those found abiding in Him & willing to go are of the firstfruits of the resurrection; Luke 13:24-30 Those in iniquity will be left behind.

Those that are Christ's at His coming are the second harvest that makes up the whole of the kingdom of heaven as they will be resurrected after the great tribulation in serving the King of kings on earth in raising up the following generations during that 1000 year reign Revelation 20:1-6.

Then after Satan is released from the pit after a thousand years will stage a last rebellion for a small season and those remaining loyal to Christ & those that help those who believe in Him thus loving others as they would want to be treated, will be of that third harvest that makes up the whole of the kingdom of heaven when death and hell is cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:7-15 & Matthew 25:31-46
 

ewq1938

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Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.


That isn't a harvest so that means you don't have evidence for 3.
 

dad

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There are 3 groups of harvests that makes up the whole of the kingdom of heaven before Jesus gives it back to the Father.

In Luke 13:24-30

I saw nothing in those verses that talked about harvests.

1 Corinthians 15:23
But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
1 Corinthians 15:24
Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
So we should consider what the passage means.

1 Corinthians 15:24
Then after Christ has destroyed all powers and forces, the end will come, and he will give the kingdom to God the Father.
1 Corinthians 15:25
Christ will rule until he puts all his enemies under his power,


When does Jesus destroy all who fight Him? That is when He returns. How long does it take to put all enemies under His power? Well, we do see that after 1000 years there are still enemies. Such as Satan and the forces surrounding the camp of the saints of that day. Rather than a list of three events then, this is a prophesy that covers a lot of things and time.

When it says then comes the end, that does not apparently refer to one day or afternoon. It is the time when Jesus is putting all enemies under His power! In that time, we have a few times the dead are raised.

Excommunicated can also mean not being taken as in left behind.
The Good Shepherd leaves no sheep behind. If they were left they were not sheep. It doesn't matter if they were religious or not. The excommunicated bit you made up.

There is another reason why saved believers can be left behind for.

Those invited did not come because they prefer their lives on earth than to come to the King's Supper Luke 14:15-24 They were invited because they were saved but life turned them to treasure their lives on earth rather than to give it up.
That means they didn't get saved. They preferred their lives here.
Sorry. Forgot to provide the reference for that comment below which is Revelation 14:6-13 .

"Then the first angel will preach the gospel everywhere by how there will be new believers too and then the end will come as a fire will destroy a third of the earth ( the entire western hemisphere ) Revelation 8:7-13 which will serve as the catalyst for the New World Order & the mark of the beast system to buy & sell in the rest of the 2/3rd parts of the world to survive."

Yes there willl be plenty of new believers after the Rapture.
Note the fall of Babylon by that 2nd angel in Revelation 14:8 and then read Revelation 18:1-24 where at the end of that chapter we find saints dead in that fallen Babylon as the voice of the bride and bridegroom was not heard in her any more because the rapture has come and gone
A lot of those Tribulation saints will die.

Revelation 7:1-8 testify to those 144,000 witnesses.

It also talks about who of the N.T. saints that are being taken along with O.T. saints while leaving those behind for being workers of iniquity.
Old testament saints in Rev 7? Where?

Correct, The Bride hence the firstfruits of the resurrection at the rapture event is not the whole of the kingdom of heaven but the first harvest with O.T. saints.
The dead in Christ will rise. Where does it say the OT saints?
The rapture is not omitted but not every saved believer will be found abiding in Him nor willing to go for why He is warning believers to be ready or else.
Says you. As I pointed out that is because you conflate the saved with the unsaved, and so end up confused.
 

dad

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They were invited but not ready as they were of the ten virgins that are the kingdom of heaven.
ALL are invited, He died for all. Whosoever will, let him come.
No. The first two verses confirmed this. The ten virgins are the kingdom of heaven that went forth to meet the Bridegroom, but five were foolish for not being ready.

Matthew 25:1Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
No. It does not say the ten people were the kingdom of heaven. That is a parable showing what it is like. It is like we better get saved, rather than be like the foolish five.

Jesus identified the iniquity by how they broaden the way in the worship place to include the worship of the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son and that causes the offense because the Father can only be honored by honoring only the Son in worship John 5:22-23. And thinking they can approach the Father by way of the holy Ghost is also an iniquity per John 14:6 as Jesus is the only way we can come to God the Father by and He meant it "but by me". Climbing up any other way makes one a thief as it is the iniquity spoke n of here John 10:1
We get saved and then receive of His Spirit. That is not 'approaching by way of the Holy Ghost'! That is Jesus giving us His spirit when we come to Him.
That is why in these visitations of spirits, miracles can happen, signs and lying wonders but Jesus deny them because they deny Him as the only way to come to God the Father by ( Matthew 7:21-23 ).
He also does plenty for us. Ask and you shall receive. God is not dead, or even sick. You seem to think that any wonder or miracle must be evil.


The solution to avoid that iniquity is to narrow the way back to the straight gate in coming to God the Father in worship by the only way of the Son ( Luke 13:24 ) in honoring only the Son in worship so that we are honoring the Father by in according to His will. That is the mind of Christ we are to have in worship Philippians 2:5-11 The consequence is to be left behind if we do not narrow the way back to the Son in worship Luke 13:24-30
No one is getting left behind, relax.
 

Christ4Me

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That isn't a harvest so that means you don't have evidence for 3.

Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Then you explain what the 3 measures of meals are that makes up the whole of the kingdom of heaven which is like unto leaven for the whole kingdom of heaven to be leavened by.

If you do not know, fine, but you cannot dismiss something if you cannot correct me by telling me what that parable is really about.

Thank you for sharing anyway.
 

Christ4Me

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I saw nothing in those verses that talked about harvests.

Actually I made a mistake in quoting you from post #116 and I left it out of quote to be read and somehow skipped on to the next point of your post in #116 because this was your original words here.

Where did it mention old testament believers?
1 Corinthians 15:23
But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
1 Corinthians 15:24
Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
When does Christ come and destroy all wicked dominions? Is that not what He does when He returns to rule the world? So if that is after the time when He comes to gather us in the air forever to be with Him, is that not doing exactly what the verse says?

The Old Testament believers were mentioned as being taken at the rapture event to sit down in Luke 13:24-30

So we should consider what the passage means.

1 Corinthians 15:24
Then after Christ has destroyed all powers and forces, the end will come, and he will give the kingdom to God the Father.
1 Corinthians 15:25
Christ will rule until he puts all his enemies under his power,

When does Jesus destroy all who fight Him? That is when He returns. How long does it take to put all enemies under His power? Well, we do see that after 1000 years there are still enemies. Such as Satan and the forces surrounding the camp of the saints of that day. Rather than a list of three events then, this is a prophesy that covers a lot of things and time.

When it says then comes the end, that does not apparently refer to one day or afternoon. It is the time when Jesus is putting all enemies under His power! In that time, we have a few times the dead are raised.

The end, as in the end of the world as we know it, is referring to after the rapture event when the gospel is preached in all the world and then the end will come when that fiery calamity destroys a third of the earth for why the rest of the world enters that hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth in the coming great tribulation, because by those 3 angels in Revelation 14:6-13 , every one has heard the gospel and the destruction of that third of the world, including fallen Babylon USA, and the consequence for taking the mark of the beast which is the lake of fire.

The Good Shepherd leaves no sheep behind. If they were left they were not sheep. It doesn't matter if they were religious or not. The excommunicated bit you made up.

Explain what had happened to this church in Revelation if they do not rpeent then.

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

That means they didn't get saved. They preferred their lives here.

Kind of missing the point as to why Jesus was warning believers then.

Yes there willl be plenty of new believers after the Rapture.
A lot of those Tribulation saints will die.

And left behind saints too note verse 24 per Revelation 18:1-24 as their works will follow them into the dust; Revelation 14:13

Old testament saints in Rev 7? Where?

Sorry. Seems my addressing the topic in general got mixed in with the reference in Revelation 7.

The dead in Christ will rise. Where does it say the OT saints?

Again in Luke 13:24-30

Says you. As I pointed out that is because you conflate the saved with the unsaved, and so end up confused.

Luke 12:40-49 does not have Jesus cutting asunder to leave behind unbelievers to be with unbelievers, but saved believers not abiding in Him as His disciples ( note verse 6 in John 15:1-8 ) to have their 'portions" with unbelievers on earth.
 

Christ4Me

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No one is getting left behind, relax.

Since Paul, as led by the Holy Spirit, commanded excommunication of an unrepentant brother living in sin, and that the church is not to even eat with that brother, do you really think all saved believers will be ready for the Bridegroom when He comes that there will be no excommunication by Him for the Marriage Supper? That is why Jesus is warning believers to be ready or else. No carnal saint nor former believer that gets left behind are unsaved as Jesus will finish His work even in those left behind but now is the time to call them to depart from iniquity to avoid being left behind.

1 Corinthians 5:1It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Those who get left behind, can entrust the keeping of their souls to Jesus Christ in doing a good job keeping their souls while they suffer being left behind.
 

dad

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Actually I made a mistake in quoting you from post #116 and I left it out of quote to be read and somehow skipped on to the next point of your post in #116 because this was your original words here.

The Old Testament believers were mentioned as being taken at the rapture event to sit down in Luke 13:24-30
No. Nothing there says anything about a Rapture.
The only verse that mentioned OT characters was 28
Luke 13:28
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

He is talking to wicked people about how they will one day see those OT folks being in heaven while they are not. Zero do do with a Rapture. Nor does it say when that is. The Pharisees will not be here when the Rapture happens, they are long dead. Probably the time they get raised after the 1000 years to be judged is when they will see it. Nothing to do with the Rapture.
The end, as in the end of the world as we know it, is referring to after the rapture event when the gospel is preached in all the world and then the end will come when that fiery calamity destroys a third of the earth for why the rest of the world enters that hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth in the coming great tribulation, because by those 3 angels in Revelation 14:6-13 , every one has heard the gospel and the destruction of that third of the world, including fallen Babylon USA, and the consequence for taking the mark of the beast which is the lake of fire.
Says who? If the Rapture is at the start of the Tribulation, there is plenty to happen before the end. When is the end of all things here? I would think that will be when the final millennial saints are saved, and the wicked burned, and all the dead raised to be judged finally, and then the new heaven and earth. You do not get to call some event before the Trib or even in it 'the end'.

Explain what had happened to this church in Revelation if they do not rpeent then.

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
The church here is not the saved. That church is both the saved and the people that are part of that organization that are not right with God and saved. Clearly, unless every member of that outfit did get saved they would not be Raptured and spared from the great tribulation. That is not news. Most people realize that the various church denominations and organizations are not going to be saved as a whole. Only the people in them that are saved will be called up into the air. The Catholic church is not going up in the Rapture just because they are called a body of believers by the world. Only those sincere people in it that know Jesus will be called. The same goes for other churches. That does not mean that all members of that church will be doomed unless all of them repent! That means the ones who thought they might get a free ride to heaven by merely being part of that outfit are in for a surprise unless they get right with Him. He searches the heart. He does not search the denomination.


And left behind saints too note verse 24 per Revelation 18:1-24 as their works will follow them into the dust; Revelation 14:13

No. Rev 14 is talking about believers that die 'in the Lord' from then on in that time. That is not those who were Raptured.

Luke 12:40-49 does not have Jesus cutting asunder to leave behind unbelievers to be with unbelievers, but saved believers not abiding in Him as His disciples ( note verse 6 in John 15:1-8 ) to have their 'portions" with unbelievers on earth.
I already dealt with that. They are not saved. You conflate those that are called servants with actual servants.
 

dad

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Since Paul, as led by the Holy Spirit, commanded excommunication of an unrepentant brother living in sin, and that the church is not to even eat with that brother, do you really think all saved believers will be ready for the Bridegroom when He comes that there will be no excommunication by Him for the Marriage Supper? That is why Jesus is warning believers to be ready or else. No carnal saint nor former believer that gets left behind are unsaved as Jesus will finish His work even in those left behind but now is the time to call them to depart from iniquity to avoid being left behind.
Yes in this time and in Paul's day, some were cut off from the body for grievous sins. That has nothing to do with the Rapture. Paul also mentioned that some were delivered to Satan to die so that their spirit would live. God does judge His children and discipline them. That does not mean abandoning them to hell and wrath.


Those who get left behind, can entrust the keeping of their souls to Jesus Christ in doing a good job keeping their souls while they suffer being left behind.

No. He does not forsake us. He is the Good Shepherd. You conflate the Rapture with procedures of the church in history.
 

Christ4Me

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No. Nothing there says anything about a Rapture.
The only verse that mentioned OT characters was 28
Luke 13:28
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

He is talking to wicked people about how they will one day see those OT folks being in heaven while they are not. Zero do do with a Rapture. Nor does it say when that is. The Pharisees will not be here when the Rapture happens, they are long dead. Probably the time they get raised after the 1000 years to be judged is when they will see it. Nothing to do with the Rapture.

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Luke13:29 reminds me of Matthew 24:31 as referring to the rapture event.


Yes in this time and in Paul's day, some were cut off from the body for grievous sins. That has nothing to do with the Rapture. Paul also mentioned that some were delivered to Satan to die so that their spirit would live. God does judge His children and discipline them. That does not mean abandoning them to hell and wrath.

No. He does not forsake us. He is the Good Shepherd. You conflate the Rapture with procedures of the church in history.

The Father will chasten & scourge every child He receives and it is for that reason is why Jesus is warning believers to be ready or else by looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help them lay aside every weight & sin daily, walking in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son for the high prize of our calling for Him to finish His work in us to be that vessel unto honor in His House to attend the marriage supper in Heaven.

Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 12 - King James Version

Says who? If the Rapture is at the start of the Tribulation, there is plenty to happen before the end. When is the end of all things here? I would think that will be when the final millennial saints are saved, and the wicked burned, and all the dead raised to be judged finally, and then the new heaven and earth. You do not get to call some event before the Trib or even in it 'the end'.

Since the birth of the church to these latter days, we are in the tribulation before the rapture and then that fire comes on the third of the earth that brings about the great tribulation.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The church here is not the saved. That church is both the saved and the people that are part of that organization that are not right with God and saved. Clearly, unless every member of that outfit did get saved they would not be Raptured and spared from the great tribulation. That is not news. Most people realize that the various church denominations and organizations are not going to be saved as a whole. Only the people in them that are saved will be called up into the air. The Catholic church is not going up in the Rapture just because they are called a body of believers by the world. Only those sincere people in it that know Jesus will be called. The same goes for other churches. That does not mean that all members of that church will be doomed unless all of them repent! That means the ones who thought they might get a free ride to heaven by merely being part of that outfit are in for a surprise unless they get right with Him. He searches the heart. He does not search the denomination.

He addresses the body of Christ at that city, and although He is addressing individual saints as well, there is an assembly that did those things and they are still His to rebuke for why bother rebuking them? He acknowledged their works & spoke to that church as His and He said He was judging the church by their deeds, and not as unbelievers as if addressing the unsaved.

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

I know this may be uncomfortable for you, but it is probably because you think those left behind are not saved but I am telling you, they are still saved but missed out on being partakers of the firstfruits of the resurrection as they will be they that be of Christ's at His coming as King of kings, but they will be weeping like Esau, that gave up his birthright for a meal, but God will wipe the tears from their eyes to get past that loss. Revelation 7:9-17
 

Christ4Me

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Yes in this time and in Paul's day, some were cut off from the body for grievous sins. That has nothing to do with the Rapture. Paul also mentioned that some were delivered to Satan to die so that their spirit would live. God does judge His children and discipline them. That does not mean abandoning them to hell and wrath.

I did not say they were abandon to literal hell and wrath, but to Gehenna on earth, that valley of slaughter as that hell on earth & wrath.

If you see the parallel for what the church excommunicates for, then that is what God will do for those unrepentant saints & former believers left behind as they are given unto Satan literally for the destruction of the flesh as the beats will wage war on the left behind saints and new believers to kill them with the sword and hunger since they cannot buy nor sell unless they have the mark of the beast.

No. He does not forsake us. He is the Good Shepherd. You conflate the Rapture with procedures of the church in history.

I do not consider left behind has forsaken by Him but being restored to the path of righteousness for His name's sake since they will be kings and priests for the 1000 year reign of Christ after the great tribulation as He will finish His work even in those left behind to His glory as Savior.
 

ewq1938

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Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Then you explain what the 3 measures of meals are that makes up the whole of the kingdom of heaven which is like unto leaven for the whole kingdom of heaven to be leavened by.

If you do not know, fine, but you cannot dismiss something if you cannot correct me by telling me what that parable is really about.

Thank you for sharing anyway.

There is no harvest mentioned in the verse.

I'll quote Gill on the meaning of it:

Matthew 13:33
Another parable spake he unto them,.... To the disciples and the multitude, and which was of the same kind, to the same purpose, and relating to the same subject as the former; the spread of the Gospel, and the increase of it in the world,
The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven. The word "leaven" is every where else used in a bad sense; and either designs immorality, as malice and wickedness, or false doctrine, such as that of the Pharisees and Sadducees: but here it seems to be taken in a good sense, and the Gospel to be compared unto it; nor for its disagreeable qualities, but on account of its small quantity; it is a little leaven that leavens the whole lump, and may express, as the grain of mustard seed does, the small beginnings of the Gospel, and its meanness in the eyes of men; and on account of its piercing, penetrating, and spreading nature: so the Gospel reaches the conscience, pierces the heart, enlightens the understanding, informs the judgment, raises and sets the affections on right objects, subdues the will, and brings down all towering thoughts, to the obedience of Christ, in particular persons; and has penetrated and made its way, under divine influence, through towns, cities, kingdoms, and nations: also on account of its heating, swelling, and assimilating nature; so the Gospel, where it takes place, warms the affections, causes the heart to burn within, inspires with zeal for God, and Christ, and the Gospel; it swells and fills churches with such as shall be saved, and assimilates the several persons it operates in, makes them like one another, one bread, one body, having like precious faith, knowledge, and experience, though in a different degree,
Which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal. By the "three measures of meal", are meant the elect of God; who, because of their nature and quality, are compared to meal, or fine flour; and that because of that of which it is made, wheat, to a corn of which Christ is compared, Joh_12:24 and by whose grace the saints are what they are, justified, regenerated, and sanctified; and on account of the manner it becomes so, as by grinding the wheat, sifting it when ground, and separating it from the bran; all which may express the first convictions in the conscience of awakened sinners, the grace of God in conversion, and the separation of them from the rest of the world, in the effectual calling; as also by reason of its choiceness, purity, and goodness, the saints being chosen of God and precious, and being pure and spotless, through the grace and righteousness of Christ, and being highly valued, and had in great esteem by him; and because of their quantity, are compared to three measures of meal. The measure here designed, is the Hebrew seah, which held a gallon and an half, and three of these made an ephah; and which is often rendered by the (a) Targumists, תלת סאין, "three seahs", or "measures", the very phrase here used; and the reason why three are particularly mentioned is, because such a quantity used to be fermented and kneaded by women at one time; see Gen_18:6 and for the further illustration of this, take the following passage out of the Talmud (b),
"The wise men say, that three women may be employed in one lump of dough; one may knead it, another may make it into loaves, and another may bake it--and it is a tradition,
בחיטין שלשת קבין "that in wheat they use three kabs", or "measures", and in barley four "kabs".
These measures, as here used parabolically, may design the small number of God's elect; and, as some have thought, may have respect to the three then known parts of the world, where they were, or should be: by the woman that took and hid the leaven in these measures, is meant, either the church, sometimes compared to a woman in Scripture, Rev_12:1 or the ministers of the Gospel, wisdom's maidens; or rather, Jesus Christ, the wisdom of God; see Pro_9:1 and the reason why a woman is mentioned is, because it was, with the Jews, the work of women to ferment the flour, knead the dough, and make the bread: and this action of taking and covering the leaven in the meal, may denote the power of Christ, in opening the heart, and putting in the Gospel, which unless he takes in hand, and uses, is ineffectual; as also the passiveness of men, under the first workings of the Spirit of Christ upon their souls, by the Gospel; and likewise, the secret and invisible power of divine grace, operating by the ministry of the word, upon the heart,
Until the whole was leavened: to be "leavened" by the Gospel, is to be evangelized by it, to be brought into the life and liberty of it, to a Gospel way of living by faith on Christ; to derive all peace, joy, and comfort from him, and not from any works of righteousness; and to have a man's obedience influenced by the love of God, so as to do it cheerfully, and without dependence on it. Now the Gospel, where it has entrance and takes place, powerfully and effectually, continues to operate more or less, as the leaven in the meal, until the whole man, soul and body, all the faculties of the soul, and members of the body, are influenced by it; and will continue with power and efficacy in the world, and church, until all the elect of God are wrought upon by it, and are brought in. There is a late ingenious interpretation (c) of this parable, which, since the word "leaven" is elsewhere always used in a bad sense, deserves consideration; according to which, this parable expresses not the spread of truth, but of error; by "the woman" is thought to be meant, the Apocalyptic woman, the woman spoken of in the Revelations, the whore of Rome, the mother of harlots; and the "leaven" which she took, the leaven of false doctrine and discipline; by her "hiding" it, the private, secret, artful methods, false doctrines, and bad discipline were introduced, and the gradual progress thereof; and by the "three measures of meal", the bishops and doctors of the church, among whom this leaven was spread, and who were fermented with it; particularly those three bishops of Rome at first, Sosymus, John the faster, and Boniface the third; which by degrees spread itself, until the whole Christian world was affected with it; and for a long time lay hid and undiscovered, till the Lord raised up Wyclif, John Huss, Jerom of Prague, Luther, and other reformers. The reader may choose which interpretation he likes best,
(a) Targum Onketos & Jarchi, in Exod. xvi. 36. & Targum Jon. in Ruth ii. 17. (b) T. Hieros. Pesachim, fol. 30. 2. (c) Vid. Teelman. Specimen Explic. Parabolarum, p. 64, 65, 66, 67, 68.
 

dad

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Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.
When will they come? Not at the Rapture.
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Luke13:29 reminds me of Matthew 24:31 as referring to the rapture event.
Not me. That is when they SEE Him return, and they have good reason to mourn. At the Rapture WE see Him.


The Father will chasten & scourge every child He receives and it is for that reason is why Jesus is warning believers to be ready or else by looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help them lay aside every weight & sin daily, walking in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son for the high prize of our calling for Him to finish His work in us to be that vessel unto honor in His House to attend the marriage supper in Heaven.

Yes and for OUR benefit. That does not mean He leaves sheep out in the forest and forsakes them.


Since the birth of the church to these latter days, we are in the tribulation before the rapture and then that fire comes on the third of the earth that brings about the great tribulation.
The Great Tribulation and the last seven years are the main issue here.

He addresses the body of Christ at that city, and although He is addressing individual saints as well, there is an assembly that did those things and they are still His to rebuke for why bother rebuking them? He acknowledged their works & spoke to that church as His and He said He was judging the church by their deeds, and not as unbelievers as if addressing the unsaved.

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
Looks like He actually was talking to an angel! That angel was over the particular church. It does not say all members of that church were right with God and saved.

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
That is explaining He looks at the heart, and that if some are not right, they will not make it. That does not mean every saved person in the outfit is as good as dead! Why do you have a hard time seeing that most church outfits are a sham and will not make it?? Only those who sincerely asked Him in will make it. Those churches in some cases are about as holy as the great whore riding the beast in Rev 17/18.
24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
There we have it again, those people who are His will be OK, not the church as a whole.

I know this may be uncomfortable for you, but it is probably because you think those left behind are not saved but I am telling you, they are still saved but missed out on being partakers of the firstfruits of the resurrection as they will be they that be of Christ's at His coming as King of kings, but they will be weeping like Esau, that gave up his birthright for a meal, but God will wipe the tears from their eyes to get past that loss. Revelation 7:9-17
If I had a nickel for every time I heard a works trip... It is not uncomfortable, it is pathetic.
 

dad

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I did not say they were abandon to literal hell and wrath, but to Gehenna on earth, that valley of slaughter as that hell on earth & wrath.
Except you made that up whole of cloth.

If you see the parallel for what the church excommunicates for, then that is what God will do for those unrepentant saints & former believers left behind as they are given unto Satan literally for the destruction of the flesh as the beats will wage war on the left behind saints and new believers to kill them with the sword and hunger since they cannot buy nor sell unless they have the mark of the beast.
Because you confate the saved and unsaved, naturally you don't know the difference here.
I do not consider left behind has forsaken by Him but being restored to the path of righteousness for His name's sake since they will be kings and priests for the 1000 year reign of Christ after the great tribulation as He will finish His work even in those left behind to His glory as Savior.
No one is left behind, you are hammering unrelated verses to try to fit your personal doctrine.
 

Timtofly

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Once they come to Him as He asks, then He works on them. He comes in and lives in them. They choose. He chooses those who choose Him.
No. They are physically stripped of Adam's flesh and blood and wait on Mt. Zion waiting for the Millennial Kingdom on earth. All on earth must shed Adam's flesh and blood. That is the point of GT. All must physically die to be resurrected into permanent incorruptible physical bodies. They will live out their "faith" in the Millennium.
 

dad

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No. They are physically stripped of Adam's flesh and blood and wait on Mt. Zion waiting for the Millennial Kingdom on earth. All on earth must shed Adam's flesh and blood. That is the point of GT. All must physically die to be resurrected into permanent incorruptible physical bodies. They will live out their "faith" in the Millennium.
Was this little word salad leading to some point?
 

Christ4Me

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If I had a nickel for every time I heard a works trip... It is not uncomfortable, it is pathetic.

If those carnal saints and former believers left behind are still saved, then how can that be a works based salvation for being ready & willing to go?
 

Christ4Me

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Except you made that up whole of cloth.

Because you confate the saved and unsaved, naturally you don't know the difference here.
No one is left behind, you are hammering unrelated verses to try to fit your personal doctrine.

Ask Jesus then. I did not realize I was hammering you but making full proof of His ministry. Feel free to ask Jesus about this then. Maybe He will lead you to scripture in answering your question or He will speak to you in a dream or you will be led to something else but He is the only One that can help you see the truth in His words. Indeed, you mentioned the effect of excommunication by the church and yet you do not think God will not do that at the rapture? Maybe there the Lord will open your eyes, but I know I cannot do it. it is His ministry anyway.