The Pre-Trib Rapture

[marks]

Of course not, but I was giving a basic definition to the translation of the word “ouranos”. However, it is never described as a well watered park like Eden.

So then your answer was incomplete for effect?

Much love!

 

[marks]

As a scroll of ownership, yes I do in a way. Christ was granted worthy to receive and open it. The scroll IMHO, is the the earth and it’s inhabitants. Meeting the prerequisites brings about the Kingdom.

Did you say that correctly, the scroll = the earth and it's inhabitants?

Much love!

 

[No Pre-TB]

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 KJV
51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

We shall be changed in in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.

Much love!

I never said we don’t change. There is a change for the living and the dead. The dead rise first as quick as a twinkling. You’re taking the “we” when both groups are told they will change and applying the living to it (the twinkling of an eye) which is not in the text. Something that may happen, but isn’t listed.
As I said earlier, not really something to be heated over.

 

[No Pre-TB]

So then your answer was incomplete for effect?

Much love!

My apologies, but I don’t understand what you mean. You asked a question and I responded.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Did you say that correctly, the scroll = the earth and it's inhabitants?

Much love!

I believe I already answered it when I said IMHO.

 

[marks]

My apologies, but I don’t understand what you mean. You asked a question and I responded.

Did you only give a partial definition of "heaven" in order to contrast more starkly against "paradise"?

Much love!

 

[marks]

I believe I already answered it when I said IMHO.

Just confirming, it sounded like an odd thing to say, and sometimes people leave out words in posts, so I thought I'd check.

Thanks!

Much love!

 

[No Pre-TB]

The point is that the New Jerusalem comes down after the 1000 years. Paradise is that heavenly city until then. They entered Paradise 1991 years ago. All have been entering since then. That stops at the Second Coming. During the Millennium the church is still in Paradise until the NHNE. No Scripture claims that after being in Paradise, one leaves to live on earth. Not until the city itself comes down from heaven can it be said they are on the earth. Even then, they still will not leave New Jerusalem. It is not a space ship bringing colonist to populate the earth. The population of Paradise remains forever in Paradise. There will just no longer be a separation between earth and Paradise after the NHNE.

I don’t see it that way, but that’s ok. :)

 

[marks]

I never said we don’t change. There is a change for the living and the dead. The dead rise first as quick as a twinkling. You’re taking the “we” when both groups are told they will change and applying the living to it (the twinkling of an eye) which is not in the text. Something that may happen, but isn’t listed.
As I said earlier, not really something to be heated over.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 KJV
51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

This is what Paul wrote. The dead will be raised and we shall be changed. And that change comes in a moment.

It's difficult to understand how this isn't clear to someone else, but there it is.

Mortal putting on immortality is not the same as resurrection of the dead.

Much love!

 

[No Pre-TB]

Did you only give a partial definition of "heaven" in order to contrast more starkly against "paradise"?

Much love!

I gave the basic translation. I didn’t feel I needed to go into detail. But since you seem intrigued, I’ll post it from biblehub.

Transliteration: ouranos
Phonetic Spelling: (oo-ran-os')
Definition: heaven
Usage: heaven, (a) the visible heavens: the atmosphere, the sky, the starry heavens, (b) the spiritual heavens.

 

[No Pre-TB]

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 KJV
51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

This is what Paul wrote. The dead will be raised and we shall be changed. And that change comes in a moment.

It's difficult to understand how this isn't clear to someone else, but there it is.

Mortal putting on immortality is not the same as resurrection of the dead.

Much love!

When did I say the dead don’t rise or change? When did I say the living don’t change? I suppose you and I see the meaning of whom the twinkle applies to slightly differently. How you put it seems the living and dead both change instantly. Then, while changed. The dead rise and the living, who were already changed wait to meet them in the air. It doesn’t sound logical. But, we who are alive and remain…catch that? There is a separate window. Or, are you arguing the speed of the change and not the when?

 

[marks]

When did I say the dead don’t rise or change? When did I say the living don’t change? I suppose you and I see the meaning of whom the twinkle applies to slightly differently. How you put it seems the living and dead both change instantly. Then, while changed. The dead rise and the living, who were already changed wait to meet them in the air. It doesn’t sound logical. But, we who are alive and remain…catch that? There is a separate window. Or, are you arguing the speed of the change and not the when?

The writer says the rapture happens in a twinkling of an eye…but is that what scripture says?

1 Cor 15
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

In this verse, the only thing that is raised in the blink of an eye is the resurrection of the dead.

I'm saying, the "twinkling of an eye" is in reference to the transformation of the living.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 KJV
51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Much love!

 

[Enoch111]

I'm saying, the "twinkling of an eye" is in reference to the transformation of the living.

According to the passage you quoted below that statement, it includes both the living saints and the saints who had passed on, but are receiving glorified bodies at this time.

 

[Taken]

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 KJV
51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

This is what Paul wrote. The dead will be raised and we shall be changed. And that change comes in a moment.

It's difficult to understand how this isn't clear to someone else, but there it is.

Mortal putting on immortality is not the same as resurrection of the dead.

Much love!

Paul address THREE Groups.
(ONE) * The Saved in Christ....
The Saved “IN” Christ, (who have physically died) and the Saved “IN” Christ (who are physically alive) .....BEFORE the Trib begins...Called by the Archangel....the trump of God sounds...the already MADE WHOLE ‘IN” Christ are quickly risen up above the face of the Earth.
* 1 Thes 4:
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(TWO) * The Body’s of those Saved....For enduring Belief IN GOD, (to the end of their physical life)....OT- through to after Trib...After 1,000 year reign...
First Ressurection.
* 1 Cor 15:
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

(THREE) * The Body’s of those Saved after Physical death.....For enduring Belief IN JESUS, (To the end of their physical life...but did not CONVERT).....So also will GOD bring with Him....They are part of the First Resurrection.
1 Thes 4:
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

[Taken]

@marks

Twinkling of an eye....Quick...are references to raising body’s of the SAVED...
Be those body’s physically “alive” or physically ‘dead”....

Pre-trib...IN Christ....raised up in glorified body’s
The saved are always raised up in a glorified body...First resurrection
The unsaved dead are raised up in their dead body...Second resurrection

:)

 

[No Pre-TB]

I'm saying, the "twinkling of an eye" is in reference to the transformation of the living.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 KJV
51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Much love!

I think I understand how you mean now. Do you see it as:

we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,

This would assume as you say, both groups, regardless of timing, change instantly. Whereas I see it like this:

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

I see the first set of “we shall not all sleep, but we all shall be changed” as a separate statement. The second statement identifies the dead rising instantly.

Interesting thought. Glad you brought it to my attention. Sometimes it’s fun to step back and see things from another vantage point regardless if we believe it or not. It’s how we learn and it’s how we see how others may view things. I will think about this some.

Edit. Going to go find the inter linear on it. Fun!

 

[marks]

This would assume as you say, both groups, regardless of timing, change instantly. Whereas I see it like this:

The dead are raised, and the living are changed.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 KJV
51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


Much love!

 

[farouk]

The dead are raised, and the living are changed.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 KJV
51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


Much love!

@marks "We' there refers to the (pilgrim) church. If we cross-reference with 1 Cor. 10.32 and mediate on the groups of people there, clearly it must be the church that is raptured.

 

[marks]

@marks "We' there refers to the (pilgrim) church. If we cross-reference with 1 Cor. 10.32 and mediate on the groups of people there, clearly it must be the church that is raptured.

1 Corinthians 10:32 KJV
32) Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

This, and, In Christ are neither Greek nor Jew.

Much love!

 

[farouk]

1 Corinthians 10:32 KJV
32) Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

This, and, In Christ are neither Greek nor Jew.

Much love!

Indeed...