The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Enoch111]

PART V
1 Corinthians 15:51-58
The Rapture is a “mystery.”
- A NT mystery is something “which was kept secret since the world began, but now is made manifest” (Ro. 16:25-26). The mystery in 1 Corinthians 15 is the revelation of the Rapture itself and particularly the instant glorification of living saints at the Rapture.

- The Rapture is the two-fold event of the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the transformation of the living (“the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed,” 1 Co. 15:52). This is the Rapture described in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

- The Rapture will happen “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.” “Moment” is the Greek atomos, from whence the word “atom” is derived. The Rapture will occur instantaneously. There will be no warning. There will be no opportunity to make further preparation. It is an event that must be prepared for beforehand by salvation and service (for reward).

- The Rapture will happen “at the last trump.” This is the trump of 1 Th. 4:16. The trumpet that will sound at the Rapture of the church-age saints is not the same as the trumpets that will sound in Revelation as judgments on this world or the trumpets that sound in reference to Israel. The church is not a part of these other programs. The church’s last trump is when she shall finally be congregated together to the Lord. “There is no basis for posttribulationists equating this trumpet with the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11:15-19. The trumpets in Revelation pertain to judgments during the Tribulation, whereas the trumpet in 1 Co. 15:52 is related to the church” (Bible Knowledge Commentary).

- “We shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.” “Incorruptible” means that the resurrection body will be incapable of sickness and disease. “Immortal” means incapable of dying. “Shall be raised” and “shall be changed” are future passive. God will do it.

The Rapture is sure (1 Co. 15:49-52).
- The Rapture is as sure as the Word of God. “Shall” is repeated five times in this passage: “we shall also bear the image of the heavenly ... we shall all be changed ... the trumpet shall sound ... the dead shall be raised ... we shall be changed.”

 

[Enoch111]

PART VI
The Rapture is cause of praise to God. “Death is swallowed up in victory” (1 Co. 15:54-57).
- This amazing passage on the resurrection concludes with a passionate note of praise to God.

- In 1 Co. 15:54, Paul cites Isaiah 25:8, “He will swallow up death in victory.” Isaiah 25:1-12 is a prophecy of the destruction of the present Gentile kingdoms and the establishment of Christ’s kingdom. Isaiah speaks of death swallowed up in the future tense, while Paul speaks of it in the aorist indicative, which is action that is past.

- In 1 Co. 15:55, Paul makes a reference to Hosea 13:14, “I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.” Here, God promises to ransom Israel from the power of the grave, and He will do it by Himself becoming death’s plagues. God Himself paid the full penalty for sin required by the law.

- Paul triumphantly addresses death and the grave. He personifies them as if they are animate and pronounces victory over them. Death and the grave have held sway over mankind for 6,000 long years. “... by one man’s offense death reigned” (Ro. 5:17). One by one, the descendants of Adam have lived their short lives and been carried away by death in the myriad of its terrible forms. We live our lives with the certainty of death waiting in the wings. In this revelation of the resurrection, Paul sees the end of death, and he is exultant.

- “The sting of death is sin.” Death is the wages of sin (Ro. 6:23). Christ took the sting of death upon Himself in our place. “The strength of sin is the law.” This is explained in Romans 4:15, “where no law is, there is no transgression,” and Romans 5:13, “sin is not imputed when there is no law,” and 1 John 3:4, “sin is the transgression of the law.” The law of God brings guilt (Ro. 3:19) and curse (Ga. 3:10). “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us” (Ga. 3:13).

- He gives thanks to “God.” It is God alone who has wrought salvation for fallen sinners. All is of God. He planned it and carried it out. Man has done nothing and can do nothing. It is 100% God’s grace.

- The victory is “through our Lord Jesus Christ.” The Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world (1 Jo. 4:14). He is Lord; He is Jesus the Saviour; He is Christ the Anointed of God, the fulfillment of Bible prophecy; He is ours. He is the Lord Jesus Christ for all who receive the gospel.

- The revelation of victory over death shows the glory of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the glory of the Bible that reveals it. Non-Christian religions do not offer any such victory. Human philosophy does not understand death and has no victory over it. Sigmund Freud, the founder of psychiatry, wrote, “And finally there is the painful riddle of death, for which no remedy at all has yet been found, nor probably ever will be” (The Bible Exposition Commentary). Pagan religions do not offer victory over death; they offer only an uncertain and vague “hope” through works and rituals. Only through the Bible can we understand the cause of death and where man goes after death and how to have certain victory over death through faith in Jesus Christ.

The Rapture explains how that flesh and blood will inherit the kingdom of God and how that corruption will inherit incorruption (1 Co. 15:50).

- The Corinthians thought they were already in the kingdom (1 Co. 4:5-8). “Because the underlying problem causing the denial of the resurrection was a view of the present earthly body as already fit to enter the kingdom. Paul expressed his thought two ways (15:50). ‘Flesh and blood’ could not inherit the kingdom. Did anyone think it could? Yes, the Corinthians did, as 4:5-8 indicated. Their problems with resurrection seem to indicate an ‘I’m already in the kingdom’ attitude” (Everyman’s Bible Commentary).

The Rapture is a source of great encouragement and motivation to godly Christian service. “Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord” (1 Co. 15:58).

 

[Enoch111]

PART VII
- The Rapture is a very important doctrine. Bible prophecy is not given merely to enlighten the intellect and satisfy our interest in the future; it is given to sanctify. The doctrine of the Rapture is to motivate God’s people to stay awake spiritually and to stay busy in the work of preaching the gospel to lost souls before it is too late. The doctrine of the Rapture is repeated throughout the New Testament, and it must be taught and emphasized in every church.

- Paul addresses the “beloved brethren.” One must be saved to have these promises, to have the hope of this future, and to live this life.

- “Be ye.” This is present imperative active. It is a command, and it is a command to be doing this in a continuous, repeated action.

- “steadfast, unmovable.” “Steadfast” is the Greek hedraios, “from hedra, seat, chair.” It is translated “settled” (Col. 1:23). The believer is to remain perfectly settled in his faith in Christ, like sitting down in a chair and refusing to move. He is steadfast in God’s Word and God’s truth and God’s will and God’s promises. Steadfast describes the believer’s commitment to Christ and His will. I am committed; I am settled. “Unmovable” describes the believer’s determined resistance to every force that would move him out of God’s will: the seductions of the world, the attacks of the devil, the lies of false teachers, persecution, suffering, discouragement, fear. The words “steadfast, unmovable” mean nearly the same thing and are repeated by way of emphasis. A great many saints have been steadfast, unmovable. We think of Noah, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, Deborah, Hannah, Samuel, Ruth, David, Elijah, Peter, John, Paul, Timothy, Aquila and Priscilla. They put their faith in God and were never moved away. On the other hand, many were not steadfast. Lot was moved by his covetousness (Ge. 13:10-11). Esau was moved by a bowl of soup (Ge. 25:34). Demas was moved by his love for this present world (2 Ti. 4:10).

- “always abounding in the work of the Lord.” The Christian life is not just standing in the faith and not being moved; it is being busy in God’s work. There is a great work for God in this present world, and every child of God has his part. There is a good, and acceptable and perfect will of God (Ro. 12:1-2). There are the works “which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them” (Eph. 2:10). There is praying work and worship work and church work and soul winning work and home making work and fathering work and mothering work and parenting work and works of holiness and works of separation and works of compassion and and works of edifying the brethren and many other works that are spelled out in the New Testament Scriptures. There is ambassador work in preaching the gospel (2 Co. 5:20). There is work building up the church (Eph. 4:16). There are spiritual gifts and ministries to be exercised (Ro. 12:3-8). There is priestly work (1 Pe. 2:5). Note the words “always abounding.” Every saint is to be always engaged in the work of the Lord, not part time, not once in a while. Every saint is to be abounding in the work of the Lord. This is the opposite of lazy, lukewarm, half-hearted, half-committed. This is sold out Christianity. This is true discipleship. Christ did not take the sting of death and purchase salvation so that the redeemed could continue to live their lives for themselves. “Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works” (Tit. 2:14).

- “forasmuch as ye know that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.” This is a great encouragement, and it has encouraged multitudes of saints as they have walked through this fallen world. God’s work is the only work in this world that is guaranteed successful. Labor in Christ is not in vain because it is blessed by God in this present life and it has eternal reward. It is sanctified in Christ and therefore acceptable to God. No matter what happens or how things “look,” just keep believing God’s Word, just keep serving Him; remain steadfast, don’t be moved.

 

[Enoch111]

PART VIII
John 14:1-3

“Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also” (John 14:1-3).

Heaven is called “my Father’s house.” It is where God’s throne resides. It is called “paradise” (Lu. 23:43; 2 Co. 12:4; Re. 2:7). This is the Greek paradeisos, which was borrowed from the Persians and referred to delightful royal parks. “Socrates said that the king of Persia took particular care, wherever he was, to have gardens or enclosures full of every beautiful and good thing the earth could produce” (Complete Word Study Bible).

At His ascension, Jesus went to prepare a place for His bride. By Jewish custom, after the engagement, the bridegroom built an apartment onto his father’s house, then he returned at the wedding to fetch her. The departure and return of the bridegroom is described in Christ’s Parable of the Ten Virgins (Mt. 25:1-6).

“Mansion” is the Greek mone, a dwelling. It is translated “abode” in Joh. 14:23. The English “mansion” is from the Latin “mansiones.” The word mone itself does not mean a splendid dwelling, but the context demands it.

Christ promised to return and “receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.” This will occur at the Rapture, when Christ will resurrect the dead saints and transform the living ones. “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord” (1 Th. 4:16-17). John 14 tells us that the Rapture occurs before the Tribulation, because at Christ’s coming after the Tribulation, He will ride with the armies of heaven, defeat the antichrist armies, descends to the Mt. of Olives, and begins to establish His earthly kingdom (Zec. 14:3-4; Re. 19:11-21).

This event obviously is not about catching away His bride to the Father’s house. Church-age believers are a heavenly people with a heavenly hope (Eph. 1; Php. 3:20; Col. 3:1-3). Some dispensationalists teach that the church-age saints will live in heaven during the millennium. I believe they will live both in heaven and in earth.

The Lord Jesus promised church-age overcomers that they will rule the nations (Re. 2:26-27), and He promised the apostles, who are the foundation builders of the church (Eph. 2:20), that they will sit on thrones and reign with Him over Israel (Mt. 19:28). That is earthly language. In the resurrection, the physical limitations of this present life will be removed, as we see Jesus ascending to heaven, appearing and disappearing, etc., so to live in heaven and on earth will no longer be an impossibility.

 

[No Pre-TB]

I get it primarily from Revelation 5:1-5. When did Christ prevail? After the resurrection, and the ascension when he arrives in heaven.

And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. (Revelation 5:5)

I Believe the first seal is the Nicolaitans, those who would rule over the Laity.... They conquer by false teaching and exalting themselves above the laity, The literal meaning of the word Nicolaitan. From the very Get go the church dealt with these people "Judaizers" Paul dealt with, the Gnotics John dealt with etc. The fifth seal began with the martyrdom of Stephen.

But David, look at what scripture says.

Rev 6:8
And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

1. 2nd seal: sword
2. 3rd seal: famine/hunger
3. 4th seal: death/pestilence

But where do beasts of the earth fit? If we go back to the OT, God tells Moses these are his 4 sore judgments. They have always existed and he uses them for the reasons given. One example is The spirit/wind of the earth strove upon the great sea in Dan 7:1
Another are the colored horses in Zechariah 6 where we are told they represent:

5And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.

When you think of beasts of the earth, what do you see?

 

[Happy Trails]

The great tribulation is God's wrath against this sinful God rejecting world not His church(born-again believers)
1 Thessalonians 5:9
“For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,”
Luke 21:36
Jesus says===“Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

I beg to differ. The tribulation is what the Beast does to God's people.
God's wrath is poured out on the Beast

So, no.

Believers are not appointed to wrath. But, that has nothing to do with the tribulation.

 

[David H.]

But David, look at what scripture says.

Rev 6:8
And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

1. 2nd seal: sword
2. 3rd seal: famine/hunger
3. 4th seal: death/pestilence

But where do beasts of the earth fit? If we go back to the OT, God tells Moses these are his 4 sore judgments. They have always existed and he uses them for the reasons given. One example is The spirit/wind of the earth strove upon the great sea in Dan 7:1
Another are the colored horses in Zechariah 6 where we are told they represent:

5And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.

When you think of beasts of the earth, what do you see?

The seals are plagues upon the whole earth that Christians have to deal with. think of the early plagues of Moses in Egypt. The sixth seal is akin to the darkness you can feel, from that moment on, Israel was protected from the plagues, and they had light while the Egyptians did not.

So the church has had to deal with Nicolaitans, wars, famines and pestilence and persecution for the entirety of the church age as this is part of the opening of the book with the seals, which is the eventual wrath of God on wickedness which comes at the day of the LORD. The Goal of Plagues is to lead to repentance and once repentance is no more found then the wrath begins. All of the plagues must be done in Revelation before The rapture and the day of the LORD can begin. Most of the trumpets are plagues, and at the sixth trumpet no more repentance is found in mankind (Revelation 9:20-21) and that is when the judgement is pronounced (The little scroll even thunders Revelation 10) and the rapture takes place and the wrath of God begins (Revelation 11:18).

 

[David H.]

Are you saying John went to the past? Revelation was written down decades after 30AD.

Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; (Revelation 1:19)

Past, present and future.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Most of the trumpets are plagues, and at the sixth trumpet no more repentance is found in mankind (Revelation 9:20-21) and that is when the judgement is pronounced (The little scroll even thunders Revelation 10) and the rapture takes place and the wrath of God begins (Revelation 11:18).

But you dd not answer the question, Where do you put the "great beasts" at? You think that the first seal is the Nicolaitans. Yet we are told there are 4 judgments: For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast? Ezekiel 14:21

I agree with you that Moses and the Israelites were protected while in the plagues. They obeyed God, therefore they were protected. In Exodus 11, we are told: 7But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that ye may know how that the LORD doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel.

You said, All of the plagues must be done in Revelation before The rapture and the day of the LORD can begin. Most of the trumpets are plagues, and at the sixth trumpet no more repentance is found in mankind (Revelation 9:20-21) and that is when the judgement is pronounced (The little scroll even thunders Revelation 10) and the rapture takes place and the wrath of God begins (Revelation 11:18).

I just want to touch on the above statement. I agree with you that the plagues have been happening throughout history; that is seals 1-5. Christ makes it known in Matthew 24 with this statement:

6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Specifically, he tells us "not to be troubled" and the "end is not yet". Wars, disease and famine have been recorded all throughout history. As far as the trumpets go, why do you see them as plagues? I suppose it matters "how" you see them unfolding. For me, I only see one judgment early on when God's Orge wrath is shown. It isnt on man, but on something else =P. Also, you made mention that at the 6th trumpet, there is no more repenting? I will disagree there. Throughout the entire text, you are correct that men fail to repent and you show it in the scripture found at Rev 9:20-21. But something happens BEFORE the 7th trumpet is blown. Men (and women I'm sure) begin to change.

13And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

You see that? They were fearful and gave God the glory! We were just told previously in Rev 14:7, And he said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come. Worship the One who made the heavens and the earth and the sea and the springs of waters.

And the people finally do this BEFORE the 7th trumpet blows. There is a saving grace even at the end when all seems impossible. Look at Joel 2:12-14, even after the locust invasion sweeps through, it still isnt too late to repent. For those saying the trumpets are wrath, it plainly goes against everything we are taught above God's love all the way to the very last second. To drive that point home, Rev 14:9 gives us an easily understood warning showing this isnt wrath.

“If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath

If you heed the warnings above, you won't be affected by God's out poured, undiluted wrath (Thumos) which implies this isnt wrath now. People need to understand the difference between orge and thumos and how each type affects whom or what. But this is something you are not going to really find on google or some Faux Christian prophecy video.

Lastly, I do agree with you on Rev 11:18. There are many reasons it is justified and not (1) has to do with it being the 7th Trumpet. Theer are a multitude of verses, but here is one that is always overlooked. 2 Timothy 4:1,
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

You see that? The bema seat judgment takes place at his glorious epiphania which coincides with his Kingdom. If it is his Kingdom, he is reigning when all the nations of the world become his. Luke 18:30 also agrees saying, Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting. Not everlasting life 7 years beforehand, but in the world or age to come wherein dwells righteousness. That world to come cannot be the present but is the future millennial kingdom. That Luke 18 passage has a man ask Christ, how can he receive eternal life and Christ tells him all about the Kingdom of God.

For those that think otherwise, here is Acts 3:21 for you.

whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

See that? Christ must remain in heaven till the restoration of all things. He tells us he must shake the heavens and the earth to remove what can be removed in order to make a new heaven and a new earth which is unmovable. That restitution is part of the redemption of our bodies when we are changed immortal (Romans 8:21-23) and we are sealed till that redemption thereby he doesn't leave heaven till that happens. We are still sealed with the HS even in chaotic times (Eph 4:30) when Christ will change our body like his (Phil 3:21) in the regeneration when Christ sits on his throne (Matthew 19:28) at the 7th trumpet when the nations of the world are his and he begins to reign.

 

[No Pre-TB]

I beg to differ. The tribulation is what the Beast does to God's people.
God's wrath is poured out on the Beast

So, no.

Believers are not appointed to wrath. But, that has nothing to do with the tribulation.

He needs to understand the word tribulation is thlipsis. Biblehub lists it as It means ("compression, tribulation") carries the challenge of coping with the internal pressure of a tribulation, especially when feeling there is "no way of escape" ("hemmed in"). It is never used as God's wrath. It is defined as: persecution, affliction, distress. Let's educate others so they have the tools to make a proper informed decision.

God has 2 NT wrath's in revelation.

1. Orge:
("settled anger") proceeds from an internal disposition which steadfastly opposes someone or something based on extended personal exposure, i.e. solidifying what the beholder considers wrong (unjust, evil).

2. Thumos:
("expressed passion") is used of people it indicates rage (personal venting of anger, worth). This flaw is completely absent of the Lord expressing (inspiring) intense anger. Accordingly, 2372 (thymós) is used of God's perfect, holy wrath in Revelation (Rev 14:10,19,15:1, etc.). This anger is directed against sin with intense opposition and without sin.

Thumos is the wrath that is "poured out, undiluted". This poured out wrath is used in OT scripture as well under a different Koine Greek word, but the fact that it is used to "pour out" demonstrates the destruction God uses.

 

[n2thelight]

- The Rapture is the two-fold event of the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the transformation of the living (“the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed,” 1 Co. 15:52). This

Scripture says ALL shall be changed ,saint and sinner alike, the difference is the state of the soul after that change.
Those in Christ at His return need not fear the 2nd death while those who are not, although changed their soul is still mortal
Christ does not leave heaven twice .

 

[ewq1938]

The seals are not in order

Not opened in numerical order.

Revelation 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

This book has seven seals upon it, and the book can not be opened without first opening/breaking all the seals. In the context of this vision, these seals would be wax marks on this book, and they would basically have the insignia of a King pressed into the middle of them so that only the intended, authorized person would be allowed to break them and open the book.

Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.


"the Lamb opened one of the seals" Which one did he opened first? There are 7 of them. Did he open seal number one or another seal?

This does not say which of the seven seals were opened first, only that one of them was opened. This is extremely important if one wants to fully understand the seals. I don't believe this was the actual first or number one seal, it was only the first seal to be opened.

Pretend you are shown a door with seven locks on it. Each lock has a number written on them. The top lock is marked 1, and goes sequentially downward to the last lock marked 7. If I went to that door with 7 locks and I opened one of the locks but you are too far away to have seen which I unlocked. Which one did I open?


Pretend you have a bible, but it is a small travel version of only the first seven books of the New Testament. You have Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, and 1st Corinthians.

Now, pretend that I took a knife and and cut out each book so you had each book separated from the other and they were laid on the ground somewhere you could not see them in their proper order as listed above.

Just to make it obvious, lets also make a large number next to each book’s name to indicate which number book of the New Testament it is. So we would then have:

1 Mathew
2 Mark
3 Luke
4 John
5 Acts
6 Romans
7 1st Corinthians

Now, as you watch, I pick up “one of” the seven books and read it to myself. Which one did I read? Without seeing up close which one I had, or hearing what was read there would be no way to know exactly which one it was. But if I read it out loud, but didn’t say which number or what the name of the book was, you would be able to figure it out if you knew your NT bible well enough. The same exact type of thing is happening with the seven seals.

Pretend the first book I picked up was 6 Romans. It was the first book I read but not the actual first book! One could argue that it was the first book or book number one because it was the first I read, but that wouldn’t be true because Mathew is the actual first book of the NT.

The same is true for the seals. Christ opens “one of” the seven seals, but the only way to know which one it actually is would be to understand what knowledge of events it contained, and then compare that to the end time signs and make a decision. Since the seals give knowledge about the seven trumps, then that first seal to be opened would match the action of one of the seven trumps.

 

[Enoch111]

Scripture says ALL shall be changed ,saint and sinner alike...

That is incorrect since that passage is strictly about the saints -- those who had passed on and those who are alive.

 

[n2thelight]

Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.


"the Lamb opened one of the seals" Which one did he opened first? There are 7 of them. Did he open seal number one or another seal?

This does not say which of the seven seals were opened first, only that one of them was opened. This is extremely important if one wants to fully understand the seals. I don't believe this was the actual first or number one seal, it was only the first seal to be opened.

I agree completely, guess I didn't convey it correctly.

 

[Naomi25]

Naomi25,

So well written above. Truly, what came 1st:
1. Pre-TB or;
2. Dispensationalism

It’s very difficult to have one without the other. And it can trap (perhaps there’s a better word) the reader into seeing it that way because of it.

I attend a dispensationalist church. But I no longer see it that way. If we enter at the same holy root that we are grafted into, how are we separate? If we see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the Kingdom, how can we be separate? If Abraham is our Father…the same question applies. If God still works with the church, he hasn’t stopped working with the Jews; otherwise how do people explain 1948?

I think the confusion lies in understanding fleshly Israel today from God’s children, spiritual Israel. The Fleshly Jews were supposed to be spiritual Israel, but many were broken off. A point you made on your last post. It’s strange not to see it this way either. The wall of separation was broken down. There is no more difference between Jew or Gentile. Yet dispensationalism separates. As you said, all come to Christ first. Any future Jews by blood must come to Christ to know the Father and in doing so become part of the church.

Edit: I forgot to add, when we talk about the land, perhaps some forget that any foreigner that lives in one of the 12 tribes land and worships God becomes that tribe and receives inheritance in the land. Ezekiel 47:22-23
Gentile believers become part of the tribes. Might want to check out the 144k again :)

All well said. I too was introduced to Dispensationalism at an early age. Via my Grandparents…so I’m inclined to be somewhat fond of it all…even if I can’t see much of it in scripture.

I think a large part of the problem…not strictly with the system itself (that would take a much longer post!), but with the whole Israel/Church issue is muddied by terms like “replacement theology”. Which, to my way of thinking, is nothing more than a strawman built in order to disparage anything other than the Dispensationalists views on this particular issue. Because when one actually engages with what most of these ‘replacement theologists’ believe, it’s probably closer to adoption theology, or inclusion theology…perhaps fulfilment theology. The Church didn’t suddenly pop into existence after Pentecost and was filled by only Gentile believers. Paul tells us fairly clearly in Rom 9-11 that Gentile believers are an extension of OT faithful Jews. The Church was begun by Jewish faithful…it was spread and built by Jewish faithful. So when Gentile believers are ‘welcomed’ into the Church, all that is essentially happening, is that we are grafted onto what is essentially a Jewish foundation…or tree, as Paul calls it.
The very idea that there is a division between the two goes against pretty much everything taught in the NT, so I’m always confused at their insistence that there must be separate ‘plans’ for them. If they can show me one Jewish person in the NT who was redeemed outside of Christ (Christ’s body, which IS the Church…it’s Christ that gives it the definition, not the Church), then maybe we have something to talk about…maybe.

Having said all that, I’m not antagonistic about it, I just really don’t see how they see it. Yes…I think Rom 9-11 does speak about Gentile believers and ‘unbelieving Israel’ separately…but the purpose of that is to highlight how salvation would make them one again…grafted back to the tree. So again…one plan of salvation. Seems fairly clear cut.

 

[No Pre-TB]

All well said. I too was introduced to Dispensationalism at an early age. Via my Grandparents…so I’m inclined to be somewhat fond of it all…even if I can’t see much of it in scripture.

I think a large part of the problem…not strictly with the system itself (that would take a much longer post!), but with the whole Israel/Church issue is muddied by terms like “replacement theology”. Which, to my way of thinking, is nothing more than a strawman built in order to disparage anything other than the Dispensationalists views on this particular issue. Because when one actually engages with what most of these ‘replacement theologists’ believe, it’s probably closer to adoption theology, or inclusion theology…perhaps fulfilment theology. The Church didn’t suddenly pop into existence after Pentecost and was filled by only Gentile believers. Paul tells us fairly clearly in Rom 9-11 that Gentile believers are an extension of OT faithful Jews. The Church was begun by Jewish faithful…it was spread and built by Jewish faithful. So when Gentile believers are ‘welcomed’ into the Church, all that is essentially happening, is that we are grafted onto what is essentially a Jewish foundation…or tree, as Paul calls it.
The very idea that there is a division between the two goes against pretty much everything taught in the NT, so I’m always confused at their insistence that there must be separate ‘plans’ for them. If they can show me one Jewish person in the NT who was redeemed outside of Christ (Christ’s body, which IS the Church…it’s Christ that gives it the definition, not the Church), then maybe we have something to talk about…maybe.

Having said all that, I’m not antagonistic about it, I just really don’t see how they see it. Yes…I think Rom 9-11 does speak about Gentile believers and ‘unbelieving Israel’ separately…but the purpose of that is to highlight how salvation would make them one again…grafted back to the tree. So again…one plan of salvation. Seems fairly clear cut.

For myself, possibly 15+ years ago, I felt if we are Israel that it was a grey area that was too closely linked with replacement theology. This was when I was Pre-TB. The idea that Israel is precious, Israel receives the blessing, Israel is the promised nation, Israel is given the land and Israel will be redeemed leads many in that camp to not see it any other way.

But I truly believe once you see outside of Pre-TB, everything falls into place with a very easy way to read the word. So easily, a child could see it the same way; if they could read KJV styled text :)

I think another issue is simply the church. It is a rare thing indeed, to hear a Pastor preach on dispensationalism on a Sunday service. The real meat, if it were, that the church needs. Most do not really understand the fundamentals of different types without purchasing a book on the topic and feeding yourself.

Im still trying to find out how someone believes there are 2 separate trees (Church and Israel) with the same holy root instead of 1 tree with 1 shepherd and 1 flock. I can’t find that scripture. :)

 

[No Pre-TB]

Enoch,

That giant wall of text you posted, I realize you didn’t write it but you did post it. There’s plenty to comment on it, but here is one.

The writer said,
The Rapture will happen “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.” “Moment” is the Greek atomos, from whence the word “atom” is derived. The Rapture will occur instantaneously. There will be no warning. There will be no opportunity to make further preparation. It is an event that must be prepared for beforehand by salvation and service (for reward).

The writer says the rapture happens in a twinkling of an eye…but is that what scripture says?

1 Cor 15
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

In this verse, the only thing that is raised in the blink of an eye is the resurrection of the dead. Yet in 1 Thess 4, it mentions the dead rise first. Those who are alive and remain are not raised with the dead simultaneously in the blink of an eye. They meet the dead, who are already in the air with Christ. That word, proton, means specifically first or first in order of. Let’s get it right and filter the sayings of man out of our minds so we have a clear understanding.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Enoch111,

Here’s another. The writer said,
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also” (John 14:1-3).

He goes on to say that the word for heaven is identical to paradise. It really isn’t. Heaven is described as the outer atmosphere whereas paradise is a park or well watered garden. Two completely different Greek words and meanings. We are promised paradise, and regardless of what religious background someone has, we all agree with that. But where are we promised Heaven? We are promised to reign with Christ on earth, are we promised to reign in heaven?

Now, as far as Christ going to prepare a place. He isn’t going to heaven to prepare for us literal mansions. Christ spoke against lusts, excessiveness and gaudy behavior. The idea that God has many mansions implies there’s room for all. Christ does go to prepare a place for his people that where he is, we are too. And where is he going when he reigns? Earth.

Hebrews 11:13-14
We are strangers and pilgrims in earth seeking a country whose builder and maker is God. Christ is going to prepare a place for us.
1 Peter 1:17; 1 Peter 2:11; Psalms 39:12

Hebrews 11:16
A heavenly country, he prepares for us a city.

Revelation 21:2
The new Jerusalem coming out of heaven to earth.

Matthew 25:34
The messianic kingdom prepared for us

Hebrews 12:28
A city that cannot be removed

Hebrews 12:22
City of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem

John 14:3
Where Christ is, we will be too in Jerusalem

Hebrews 13:14
We seek a city of God

Christ does go to prepare a place for us, and that place is on earth wherein righteousness dwells. Not in heaven.

 

[n2thelight]

[QUOTE="Enoch111,

Here’s another. The writer said,
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also” (John 14:1-3).[/QUOTE]

John 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in Me."

Jesus is telling us that He doesn't want us to worry . If you love the Lord Jesus Christ, and you believe on Him, then you don't have anything to worry about. Now He is going to tell us why.

John 14:2 "In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

Have you ever heard Christians say before, "I have a mansion in the sky"? Friend, that is not what "mansions" is talking about here, however it is even more beautiful then those thoughts of a large house in the sky. Let's take the word "mansions" as written in the Greek text. "Mansions" is "mone", # 3438 in the Strong's Greek dictionary, and pronounced, "mon-ay' ". It means a place to rest and abide where there is no trouble. Friend, this resting place is in Christ and the Father, that is the resting.

What is the subject of this chapter,? "Don't worry." Jesus is telling you don't worry at any time if you believe.

John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

This is Jesus' promise to you and I today, as much as it was to those eleven disciples sitting at the supper table with Him two thousand years ago. Jesus is telling us that we can count on Him, He is returning to earth to receive His own, and be with them here on earth during the Millennium age Kingdom.

 

[Taken]

The Pre-Trib Rapture
OP ^

Simple response.
Yes there is Rapture, catching up off the face of the Earth which exclusively applies to the Converted IN Christ.

Why? Because they are ALREADY MADE WHOLE....
body, soul, spirit.