Christians and Jews are both anti Acts 2:38.

[Truther]

You skipped verse 43 is why I hold to that contention because it opposes how you apply Acts 2:38 to mean.


43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Since they got the Holy Spirit immediately afterwards for believing in Him is why water baptism isn't necessary for salvation for they were born again of the Spirit.

Water baptism is for believers to follow after they are born again, to identify themselves as disciples of Jesus Christ in being a follower of Him.

You think the following verses really mean this?...


The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also NOT save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Or...

16 He that believeth and is NOT baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Or....

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ NOT for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Truther]

Plenty o' people getting baptized but not many repenting of sin. They go down dry pagans and come up wet pagans.

Baptism - whether in the name of Jesus or the Father/Son/Holy Spirit is totally meaningless if there's no repentance, and the only "spirit" these wet pagans recieve is the spirit of Satan with which they "heal", "speak in tongues", "prophesy", etc. but are as unknown to Jesus as is tofu ice cream to a fat kid. You can witness it every Sunday in many churches whose emphasis on "baptism of the Holy Spirit" is the paramount doctrine.

I wonder if they bothered to read Acts 5:32 KJV: "And we are His witnesses of these things, and so also is the Holy Ghost Whom God hath given to them that obey Him". There's that repentance from sin again ;)

Do you measure their call and spirituality?

With what?

 

[Christ4Me]

i had to read your post over and over. Took a break, then read it again. One of the most problematic questions i get asked often, is how will i know when i am saved. I get asked this more than i’d like to. There are 2 issues that i fight with concerning this question. 1. I grew up in the church. And 2. Can i really ever be saved for my continuing to sin.

1. i grew up in the church. Thats a problem. When we are young, we’re told from the beginning that the sun is yellow, the sky is blue, the grass is green, and for me, Jesus was real. As we grow up, we notice other kids also know these things. Theres never a time where i doubted any of these things. So theres never been a time where i doubted God’s existence. So if i am saved, when did it happen?? Most times we hear about conversion stories of people who never gave God any thought. So we see an actual change, from no thoughts to always thinking about God. For me, that never happened, at least as far back as i can remember.

Little children are free to come to Him for such is the kingdom of Heaven for all they can do is take Jesus at His word by trusting Him.

Matthew 10:13 And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. 14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

They should also be discipled in teaching them everything Jesus had taught adults, of course, adult issues when they are of age like no sex before marriage. One time as a tot, I was peer pressured to steal a comic book from the store across the street from the school. I did it but that very day the Lord reminded me that He did not want me to steal. So I had asked my mother for that quarter but she had asked why and I told her why, to pay back the comic book I had stolen. Reluctantly, she gave me the quarter. The next day I wanted to give the store owner the quarter & I told him why, he just smiled and told me to keep it. Can't recall if I was tempted again to steal another comic again that day or shortly after wards, by that same kid, but I told him no because God says it is wrong to steal. He scoffed and kept on bugging me. I'd said you d it then. He did & got away from it, and I had noticed the store owner had been watching us all this time and saw him steal it, but smiled and did nothing. Weird. Like he knew kids were coming into the store to steal a comic book, but looking back now, as far as I can recall, I am glad in the Lord that nobody had asked me to steal a comic book again. Apparently my conviction by the Lord was known to not even bother.

 

[Christ4Me]

2. i dont doubt that God has the power to change people, but for almost 3 yrs now, i have been trying to get saved,

When you first had believe in Jesus Christ & that God had raised Him from the dead, you were saved just then. Our believing in Jesus Christ is a work of God the Father. When you see the length He did in drawing us unto the Son to reveal Hs Son to us so we can believe in Him to be saved then take comfort that your believing in Him is a work of God the Father for why you are saved for simply believing in Him as it is written.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So our believing in Him as our Savior is a work wrought by God the Father.

 

[Christ4Me]

..... yet theres no change in me. Am i not of the elect?? Or was i converted early early in my life. I have no clue. Yet when i see how bad a sinner i am, day in day out, i think theres no way i am saved, while sinning like i do.
There you have it, apologies for the length.

It may depend on how we are following Him for why we see no change. If we look to ourselves in doing the best we can, we will fail until we come to realize we are to rely on the Lord all the time for following Him for why it is written simply that the just shall live by faith.

I heard a guy said at church that little children should not make a commitment to follow the Lord because ever since he had made it, the devil has been after him to break it. The Lord pointed that out to be a red flag but He did not apply it until later on when He had set me free from my covenant with my mouth not to cuss out loud at the warehouse when nobody was around. I had made that covenant with my mouth just the day earlier & the very next day I was worse than I ever was before. At my wits end I had asked the Lord in silent prayer why He wasn't helping me & said that He knew I did not want to do this. He answered noy audibly but I heard Him say "You made the covenant. You'd said you were going to do it. I made the Covenant with you and I'd said I am going to do it. All I ask from you is to believe in Me".

When I had made that commitment to make Jesus Lord of my life, I think it was in junior high, or high school, as led in error by my Sunday School teachers, but the Lord was patient with me as I kept failing, then asking Him for help, then to show my appreciation, I tried again, but failed again. Like a yo yo, I was miserable growing up doing the best I can in keeping that commitment until that that day He began to free me from all yokes of bondages, starting with that covenant with my mouth. I did not realize that the commitment to make Jesus Lord of my life was also something I needed to be set free from when I was applying what the Lord had said to me in that warehouse to the Promise Keepers' program that my former church was being a part of in the valley. I was going to 2 Bible studies not affiliated with my church, & both had men praising the program, but one said they only make promises to God and not to men because men cannot always be around to hold us accountable and the other said they make promises to men for they know better to make promises to God. I had not been to any PK convention & I knew it was about both. Anyway, it was a Catholic Mason that said "Isn't a commitment to follow Christ the same thing as a promise? Sure it is". That was when the Lod helped me to apply it to that commitment to be set free of so I would never speak of it again but my faith in Jesus Christ for how I am following Him.

Apologies; I had to break up my reply to you into three parts so it would not be that long. As it is, still kind of long. Sorry. May God cause the increase anyway.

 

[Christ4Me]

You think the following verses really mean this?...

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also NOT save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

If you remove the word NOT that you had inserted into that verse and look at the words in the parenthesis, the first half is speaking against water baptism because water is used to put away the filth of the flesh, whereas the second half in that parenthesis tells us how one is baptized by the Holy Ghost, the answer of a good conscience towards God by believing in Him.

Or...

16 He that believeth and is NOT baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Again, remove the word "NOT" you had inserted into that verse and you may see that this is referring to the baptism with the Holy Ghost at our ron again of the Spirit when we believed in Jesus Christ.

In Acts 8:12-17, these "potential believers" believed in the "things" Philip was preaching about but were following him around out of fanfare to see all the miracles supposedly seen by the people as coming from him. They were not coming to & believing in Jesus Christ but to Philip to see miracles. That was why they had not received the promise of the Holy Spirit even though they were water baptized in Jesus's name.\

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. 14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

So water baptism did not bring remission of sins for these sinners when they were only potential believers in Jesus Christ.

Or....

Again, remove the word "NOT" that you had inserted in that verse & look at the words I had emboldened for how they had received the remission of sins as these Jews were a part of that mob that had crucified Jesus in unbelief, therefore to repent from unbelief is by believing in Jesus Christ.

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ NOT for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

That is the message since there is only one gospel and Peter preached the same gospel to the Gentiles where he plainly stated by the prophets how believing in Him is how any one receives the remission of sins & the promise of the Spirit, including the Gentiles.

 

[Christ4Me]

Hi,

You posted "same Peter shared the same gospel". If Peter told those in Acts 2 to repent AND be baptized but told those in Acts 10 to believe only then that is NOT the same gospel. In Acts 15 the Apostles discussed the issue if the Gentiles had to be circumcised to be saved. In this meeting Peter declared v11 "But we believe that we (Jews) shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in like manner as they (Gentile)." So Jew and Gentile are saved in "like manner way", that being, both are commanded to be water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins for the Jew (Acts of the Apostles 2:38) and Gentile (Acts of the Apostles 10:47-48).

But the Gentiles were saved before water baptism so water baptism is not the means for the remission of sins, but repenting from unbelief by believing in Jesus Christ is for both parties; the Jews & the Greek.

Water baptism is an ordinance for new believers in taking the first step in being His disciples in following Him. It cannot be for salvation.

In Acts 8:12-17, these "potential believers" believed in the "things" Philip was preaching about but were following him around out of fanfare to see all the miracles supposedly seen by the people as coming from him. They were not coming to & believing in Jesus Christ but to Philip to see miracles. That was why they had not received the promise of the Holy Spirit even though they were water baptized in Jesus's name.\

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. 14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

So water baptism did not bring remission of sins for these sinners when they were only potential believers in Jesus Christ.

 

[Truther]

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also NOT save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

If you remove the word NOT that you had inserted into that verse and look at the words in the parenthesis, the first half is speaking against water baptism because water is used to put away the filth of the flesh, whereas the second half in that parenthesis tells us how one is baptized by the Holy Ghost, the answer of a good conscience towards God by believing in Him.



16 He that believeth and is NOT baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Again, remove the word "NOT" you had inserted into that verse and you may see that this is referring to the baptism with the Holy Ghost at our ron again of the Spirit when we believed in Jesus Christ.

In Acts 8:12-17, these "potential believers" believed in the "things" Philip was preaching about but were following him around out of fanfare to see all the miracles supposedly seen by the people as coming from him. They were not coming to & believing in Jesus Christ but to Philip to see miracles. That was why they had not received the promise of the Holy Spirit even though they were water baptized in Jesus's name.\

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. 14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

So water baptism did not bring remission of sins for these sinners when they were only potential believers in Jesus Christ.



Again, remove the word "NOT" that you had inserted in that verse & look at the words I had emboldened for how they had received the remission of sins as these Jews were a part of that mob that had crucified Jesus in unbelief, therefore to repent from unbelief is by believing in Jesus Christ.

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ NOT for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

That is the message since there is only one gospel and Peter preached the same gospel to the Gentiles where he plainly stated by the prophets how believing in Him is how any one receives the remission of sins & the promise of the Spirit, including the Gentiles.

Do you also think this...

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Really meant this...


38 Then Peter said unto them, BELIEVE for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost?

 

[Truther]

But the Gentiles were saved before water baptism so water baptism is not the means for the remission of sins, but repenting from unbelief by believing in Jesus Christ is for both parties; the Jews & the Greek.

Water baptism is an ordinance for new believers in taking the first step in being His disciples in following Him. It cannot be for salvation.

In Acts 8:12-17, these "potential believers" believed in the "things" Philip was preaching about but were following him around out of fanfare to see all the miracles supposedly seen by the people as coming from him. They were not coming to & believing in Jesus Christ but to Philip to see miracles. That was why they had not received the promise of the Holy Spirit even though they were water baptized in Jesus's name.\

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. 14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

So water baptism did not bring remission of sins for these sinners when they were only potential believers in Jesus Christ.

So Peter immediately COMMANDED the gentiles to be immediately baptized because they were already saved?

 

[Christ4Me]

Do you also think this...

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Really meant this...


38 Then Peter said unto them, BELIEVE for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost?

Yes, only because that is what Peter said to the Gentiles since there is only one gospel and they were born again of the Spirit before water baptism.

Did not Jesus said this?

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Why would Jesus say verse 8 when we can see any one getting water baptized in His name is how one is born again of the Spirit if water baptism is how one actually receives the remission of sins?

Yet He goes on to explain to Nicodemus that after His ascension which is after His crucifixion is when any one believes in him gets eternal life and thus born again of the Spirit.

John 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jesus is clear about how one believes is saved in how we are born again of the Spirit and how one that does not believe are condemned already.

 

[Christ4Me]

So Peter immediately COMMANDED the gentiles to be immediately baptized because they were already saved?

Yes.

Water baptism was & still is an ordinance in taking the first steps as His disciples in following Him.

 

[Truther]

Yes, only because that is what Peter said to the Gentiles since there is only one gospel and they were born again of the Spirit before water baptism.

Did not Jesus said this?

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Why would Jesus say verse 8 when we can see any one getting water baptized in His name is how one is born again of the Spirit if water baptism is how one actually receives the remission of sins?

Yet He goes on to explain to Nicodemus that after His ascension which is after His crucifixion is when any one believes in him gets eternal life and thus born again of the Spirit.

John 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jesus is clear about how one believes is saved in how we are born again of the Spirit and how one that does not believe are condemned already.

Wow, you actually admit you would not say what Peter said if it were you speaking at Pentecost.

Now, what would you call that kind of person if you were Peter?

#1...reformer?

#2....heretic?

 

[Truther]

Yes.

Water baptism was & still is an ordinance in taking the first steps as His disciples in following Him.

If water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is not for the remission of sins as per Acts 2:38(which Peter said it was), then why did Peter hurry to baptize via this "ordinance"?...

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Why was it an immediate command?

What is a non- salvational NT ordinance anyway?

God gives optional commands that are not salvational?

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

If water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is not for the remission of sins as per Acts 2:38(which Peter said it was), then why did Peter hurry to baptize via this "ordinance"?...

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Why was it an immediate command?

What is a non- salvational NT ordinance anyway?

God gives optional commands that are not salvational?

theres only 2 ordinances, neither gives salvation.

 

[Truther]

theres only 2 ordinances, neither gives salvation.

Which ones?

 

[Christ4Me]

Wow, you actually admit you would not say what Peter said if it were you speaking at Pentecost.

Now, what would you call that kind of person if you were Peter?

#1...reformer?

#2....heretic?

You inserted the word NOT in those verses.

By His grace & by His help, I am saying what that same Peter had said since there is only one gospel, and that it is by believing in Him is how any one receives the remission of sins and the gifts of the Holy Ghost at their salvation.

If a sinner was about to be dead at any moment and he says he believes, are you going to say, "Oh, sorry. No water around to baptize you by. I guess you are going to hell." Would you be surprise that God's hand in salvation is not limited by water baptism when you see him in Heaven?

 

[Christ4Me]

If water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is not for the remission of sins as per Acts 2:38(which Peter said it was), then why did Peter hurry to baptize via this "ordinance"?...

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Why was it an immediate command?

What is a non- salvational NT ordinance anyway?

God gives optional commands that are not salvational?

The question you are ignoring is why were the Gentiles born again of the Spirit before water baptism?

 

[Truther]

You inserted the word NOT in those verses.

By His grace & by His help, I am saying what that same Peter had said since there is only one gospel, and that it is by believing in Him is how any one receives the remission of sins and the gifts of the Holy Ghost at their salvation.

If a sinner was about to be dead at any moment and he says he believes, are you going to say, "Oh, sorry. No water around to baptize you by. I guess you are going to hell." Would you be surprise that God's hand in salvation is not limited by water baptism when you see him in Heaven?

We eliminate Acts 2:38 and Mark 16:16 on a case by case basis?

 

[Truther]

The question you are ignoring is why were the Gentiles born again of the Spirit before water baptism?

No. They were led to water baptism by the Holy Ghost.

We don't bury folks alive.

 

[Christ4Me]

We eliminate Acts 2:38 and Mark 16:16 on a case by case basis?

No. I apply Acts 10:43 as it is plainly written for how we receive the remission of sins and that is by believing in Him and so discernment is needed about Acts 2:38 and I see by His grace & by His help, Peter said repent for the Jews that had crucified Jesus in UNBELIEF therefore it is by repenting from unbelief by believing in Him is how they too had received the remission of sins.

And Mark 16:16 is referring to the baptism with the Holy Ghost that comes whenever any one believes in Him. You did note how it is by not believing is how they are not saved?