A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[stunnedbygrace]

Can you give me examples of where Jesus is worshipped in heaven please....I think you are seeing the word "worship" which is a translation of "pro·sky·neʹo".... a word that simply means to bow down. It does not always mean "worship" in the English understanding of the word. It can mean homage or obeisance, so the context indicates how the word is rendered in English.

For example.....the magi who came to give gifts to the child Jesus...it says in most Bibles that they "worshipped" him...but that is not what the Bible says. They were paying their respects to a new king...they did not think he was a god.

When angels bowed before God's son, (Hebrews 1:6) they were acknowledging his superior position over them, they were not worshipping him as God but as the son of God who was rightly due their honor and respect.

Translation errors are so misleading, but we each have to make our own decision about what to believe. There is a big picture and its wonderful...but Christendom has lost it. Does that mean that we can each make up our own religion, based on what we want to believe? Has God ever operated that way? He has always had his representatives on earth to guide and direct his people.....he still does, but the devil makes them look like fakes, and the fakes look like the real thing......its how he operates...buyer beware....

Blessing and honor and glory and power
belong to the one sitting on the throne
and to the Lamb forever and ever.”

14 And the four living beings said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped the Lamb.

But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,

8 And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.
9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God's angels worship him.”

When Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, he found him and said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”q
38He said, “I do believe, Lord,” and he worshiped him.

I could go on and on. There’s more. All mistranslations?

 

[Wrangler]

John says He is the word and the light and says He was with God in the beginning and that He WAS God.

Not “he” but that, that word as in John 6:60. But I see you have just ignored the verses cited that destroy the trinity. You will not be convinced - even by Gods word.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Not “he” but that, that word as in John 6:60. But I see you have just ignored the verses cited that destroy the trinity.

John 4 that you gave? It’s the only one I saw you give. I saw a verse, not verses. I answered in my last paragraph of the post.
You haven’t answered the many I gave though.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You will not be convinced - even by Gods word.

You have to fit ALL the words of God in.

 

[Aunty Jane]

While the trinity isn't supported by the Bible, you err in your understanding of the 1st commandment. The 1st commandment prohibits the worship of anything or anyone that is not God. What it clearly doesn't do is say there is only 1 Being called God.

There is one God called יְהֹוָ֥ה....(Yahweh, Jehovah)
Deuteronomy 6:4...the Shema...which had to be recited every day.....
"Hear, O Israel: יְהֹוָ֥ה is our God; יְהֹוָ֥ה is one. דשְׁמַ֖ע יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ יְהֹוָ֥ה | אֶחָֽד:"

Jesus had to come and reveal the existence of the God that became the Father because as John said, no human has ever seen the Father or heard His voice.

Yes, Jesus revealed the one he called "his Father" and "Our Father"....Yahweh is one God not several gods squeezed into one "head". That is insinuating a god with multiple personalities. Nowhere is God revealed as anything but a single entity with a single name. (Psalm 83:18 KJV)

One of the primary reasons that the Orthodox Jews couldn't understand a thing Christ taught was they assumed that there was only 1 God Being, even when the very first chapter in the Law plainly showed multiple God Beings talking to each other.

"Multiple god beings"?
I believe that Proverbs 8:22, 30-31 explains away "multiple god beings"....

“The Lord created me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old". . . .
This synchronizes with Colossians 1:15....which says of Jesus...
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation"

Proverbs 8:30-31...
Then I was beside Him, as a master workman;
And I was His delight daily,
Rejoicing always before Him,
31 Rejoicing in the world, His earth,
And having my delight in the sons of mankind."

Yahweh was not alone in creation but that does not make his son the Creator. Yahweh created his firstborn and then his son fashioned creation under his Father's guidance.
As Colossians 1:16-17 confirms...
"for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together."

Jesus is not "the God" (ho theos)...and never was. The apostles well understood this. (1 Corinthians 8:5-6)

If unitarianism is biblical, Gen. 1:26 should show Elohim saying "I'm going to make man in My image and My likeness". But that's not what the passage says. It shows Elohim saying "let Us make man in Our image". That statement and the term "Elohim" automatically implies the existence of more than 1 God Being.

Not really, unless you use the term "god" (theos) as the Greeks used it....to indicate any "god like" being...real or mythological.

 

[Wrangler]

You have to fit ALL the words of God in.

The Bible is a unitarian text. ALL the words fit that. ‘For us, there is one God, the Father.’ 1 Cor 8:6

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The Bible is a unitarian text. ALL the words fit that. ‘For us, there is one God, the Father.’ 1 Cor 8:6

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

This synchronizes with Colossians 1:15....which says of Jesus...
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation"

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Blessing and honor and glory and power
belong to the one sitting on the throne
and to the Lamb forever and ever.”

14 And the four living beings said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped the Lamb.

I don't know what translation you are using there but it doesn't say that they fell down and worshipped the Lamb.....

"And I heard every created thing which is in heaven, or on the earth, or under the earth, or on the sea, and all the things in them, saying,
“To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing, the honor, the glory, and the dominion forever and ever.”

14 And the four living creatures were saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped".

Since Jesus himself said that worship belongs only to Yahweh, (Luke 4:5-8) you can see that the Lamb is sharing the throne with his God and Father.....Princes often did this, but they were not classified as equal to their Father as the King.

But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,

Another really bad translation I'm afraid....
First, note the context. In many translations, either in the main text or in the margin, Hebrews 1:9 reads, “God, your God, anointed you.” This makes it clear that the one addressed in verse eight is not God, but one who worships God and is anointed by him.

Secondly, it should be noted that Hebrews 1:8, 9 is a quotation from Psalm 45:6, 7, which originally was addressed to a human king of Israel. Surely the writer of this psalm did not think that this human king was Almighty God and neither did the writer of Hebrews think that Jesus was Almighty God.

8 And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.
9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Here again we have the Greek word "proskyneō" which does not always mean worship and should not be translated that way without taking the context into account....

Here it is in the Greek....
"Suddenly kai idou Jesus Iēsous met hypantaō them autos and said legō, “ Good chairō morning !” And de they ho came proserchomai to him, took krateō hold of his autos · ho feet pous, and kai worshipped proskyneō him autos."

According to Strongs, the meaning of proskyneō is....

1. to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
   
   
2. among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
   
   
3. in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication"

So you see, it doesn't mean what people think it means if they only rely on English translations. At no time did any of Jesus' disciples "worship" him. They did obeisance however because he was the son of God and they recognized him as such.

And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God's angels worship him.”

Same word....not "worship" but "obeisance".....see Strongs definition above....

You need to dig way deeper my friend.....the treasure is buried because satan has a big shovel......looking for “hid treasures,” takes time and effort....but so worth it. ;)

 

[Aunty Jane]

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Read carefully....even this translation says "the firstborn of every creature" A creature is a created being.
God's firstborn is the agent of creation....it came "through him"...but not "from him".....and it was made "for him".
He is the very first creation of his God and Father and because he was created by God alone, he is unique.....there is no one like him. But he is "begotten" which means that he had a 'begetter'.....someone who existed before him and brought him into being.

Can I ask what translation you are using?..... because it is leading you astray.....

 

[APAK]

Not “he” but that, that word as in John 6:60. But I see you have just ignored the verses cited that destroy the trinity. You will not be convinced - even by Gods word.

And 1 John 1:1 speaks of the same 'beginning'....I have known this to be true.....the beginning of Yahshua's ministry.....this clip is written as a if a colleague of mine made it.....and the Greek transliterated word 'logos' is the self-expression or inner thoughts to the spoken voice, that always belonged to YHWH, our Father. The word was never 'with' YHWH...John used the Greek word 'Pros' a conjunction, 91x in this Book depending on the version and only made it 'with' only once, in John 1:1. Quite odd....it should have been 'to' or 'towards' or really 'belonging to' YHWH....this guy is good...

 

[Wrangler]

John 4 that you gave? It’s the only one I saw you give. I saw a verse, not verses.

What I gave many verses.

Not “he” but that, that word as in John 6:60. But I see you have just ignored the verses cited that destroy the trinity. You will not be convinced - even by Gods word.

Indeed, Jesus said his father is greater than him and that his father is the only true God.

Are you denying these verses because I did not include the book-chapter-# of verse?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I don't know what translation you are using there but it doesn't say that they fell down and worshipped the Lamb.....

KJ21
And the four living beings said, “Amen.” And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshiped Him that liveth for ever and ever.
ASV
And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped [Him who lives forever and ever].
AMPC
Then the four living creatures (beings) said, Amen (so be it)! And the elders [of the heavenly Sanhedrin] prostrated themselves and worshiped Him Who lives forever and ever.
BRG
And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
CSB
And the four living creatures said: Amen. And the four and twenty ancients fell down on their faces, and adored him that liveth for ever and ever.
ERV
And the four beasts said, Amen, and the four and twenty Elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for evermore.
GW
And the four animals said, Amen. And the twenty-four elders fell on their faces and worshipped him that lives for ever and ever.
KJV
And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
AKJV
And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
LEB
The four living creatures said, “Amen.” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshipped Him who lives forever and ever.
MOUNCE
Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.
NLV
And the four living beings said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped the Lamb.
NMB
And the four living creatures said, Amen! And the 24 elders fell upon their faces and worshipped him who lives forevermore.
NRSV
And the four beasts said, “Amen!” And the 24 elders fell down and worshipped Him Who lives forevermore.
RSV
And the four living creatures kept on repeating: Four Living Creatures: Amen. Amen.And the elders fell down and worshiped [Him who lives forever].
WEB
Then the four living beings said, `Amen! May it be so!' And the leaders kneeled down and worshipped the One who lives for ever and ever.
WYC


17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as if I were dead. But he laid his right hand on me and said, “Don’t be afraid! I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the living one. I died, but look—I am alive forever and ever!

Who is the one speaking in the above two verses?

 

[amadeus]

You have to fit ALL the words of God in.

Yes, all of the words must fit, but we cannot force them. It is like building it according to God's plan in the OT. Every piece is to be shaped by God...the Master potter. What can we do?

Might it be the vision formed by the Word of God itself, or even part it, which David sought, and about which Solomon and Paul wrote? Is a man even able to see it and live?

When and if we do see something of God or His face more clearly with whom should we or must we or even can we share it?

How important is it that we have it right? Can we ever get all of it right that is needed? Impossible for man, but for God?

Without Him we can do nothing?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Read carefully....even this translation says "the firstborn of every creature" A creature is a created being.
God's firstborn is the agent of creation....it came "through him"...but not "from him".....and it was made "for him".
He is the very first creation of his God and Father and because he was created by God alone, he is unique.....there is no one like him. But he is "begotten" which means that he had a 'begetter'.....someone who existed before him and brought him into being.

Can I ask what translation you are using?..... because it is leading you astray.....

I don't know what translation you are using there but it doesn't say that they fell down and worshipped the Lamb.....

"And I heard every created thing which is in heaven, or on the earth, or under the earth, or on the sea, and all the things in them, saying,
“To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing, the honor, the glory, and the dominion forever and ever.”

14 And the four living creatures were saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped".

Since Jesus himself said that worship belongs only to Yahweh, (Luke 4:5-8) you can see that the Lamb is sharing the throne with his God and Father.....Princes often did this, but they were not classified as equal to their Father as the King.


Another really bad translation I'm afraid....
First, note the context. In many translations, either in the main text or in the margin, Hebrews 1:9 reads, “God, your God, anointed you.” This makes it clear that the one addressed in verse eight is not God, but one who worships God and is anointed by him.

Secondly, it should be noted that Hebrews 1:8, 9 is a quotation from Psalm 45:6, 7, which originally was addressed to a human king of Israel. Surely the writer of this psalm did not think that this human king was Almighty God and neither did the writer of Hebrews think that Jesus was Almighty God.


Here again we have the Greek word "proskyneō" which does not always mean worship and should not be translated that way without taking the context into account....

Here it is in the Greek....
"Suddenly kai idou Jesus Iēsous met hypantaō them autos and said legō, “ Good chairō morning !” And de they ho came proserchomai to him, took krateō hold of his autos · ho feet pous, and kai worshipped proskyneō him autos."

According to Strongs, the meaning of proskyneō is....

1. to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
   
   
2. among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
   
   
3. in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication"

So you see, it doesn't mean what people think it means if they only rely on English translations. At no time did any of Jesus' disciples "worship" him. They did obeisance however because he was the son of God and they recognized him as such.


Same word....not "worship" but "obeisance".....see Strongs definition above....

You need to dig way deeper my friend.....the treasure is buried because satan has a big shovel......looking for “hid treasures,” takes time and effort....but so worth it. ;)

You will just have to refuse to worship Jesus and I will continue to worship Him and God will straighten one of us out in the end.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

What I gave many verses.






Are you denying these verses because I did not include the book-chapter-# of verse?

No, not ignoring. I could not make heads or tails of it when you said: “Not he but that, that word as in John 6:60.” It didn’t sound like a sentence. I just could not understand your sentence. It appeared as gibberish to me. I read the sentence 5 times. I tried but I was not able to comprehend your sentence. I even looked at John 6:60 to try to help me understand your odd sentence but it was no help.
60 Many of his disciples said, “This is very hard to understand. How can anyone accept it?”
But it did not give me a clue what your sentence was saying, although it gave me a good laugh to read: This is very hard to understand!

As for the other one, again, I answered in my last paragraph of one of my posts.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yes, all of the words must fit, but we cannot force them.

That’s been a recurring point of mine - you can’t force the Bible to your assumptions, preconceived notions or pet doctrines men taught you.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I could go on and on. So just as with the verses I gave about no Eternal Torment, you have to take ALL of the words of God and make them fit.

And you will never make them fit if you use a really bad English translation. All of the passages you quoted have a meaning different to the one you gave them.....it would be a long post in deed to address them all. But "all scripture is inspired of God" so there can be no contradictions. Can I ask you if you have ever come across a direct statement from either Jehovah or his Son stating categorically that he and his Son are ONE GOD?...or that the holy spirit is God?

You can mess with inference especially when language is translated and phraseology in one language is completely different and some words do not even have an equivalent. Translation is a huge responsibility and the only way for the devil to mess with the Bible text and message is to have translations say what the original never did.

When the Word became flesh, He had to rely on God just as we do, and some of what He said was as a human and some of what He said was as God. But He came from heaven and was in heaven with God before the world even existed.

Some of that statement is accurate and some of it is not....

The Word became flesh, but the Word was not Jehovah. He existed in heaven before coming to earth to give his life for us, but he wasn't God, because God is an immortal and cannot die.

Jesus was appointed as 'the only mediator between God and men', someone to bridge the gap between us, due to man's sinful condition.....but if Jesus was God, why do we not need a mediator between us and him?

All that Jesus spoke, he said was from his Father....nothing was of his own originality. He said that the holy spirit was from his Father, who was the one who anointed him at his baptism and approved of his mission, the spirit empowering him from then on to perform miracles.

Jesus is said to be a "servant" of his God.....can God be his own servant?

For every scripture you give, there is one that says the opposite, so something is very wrong here....God's word does not contradict itself and as you said "ALL" of God's words have to fit.....you have chosen yours without regard to the ones that contradict your beliefs.

There is a big picture and it begins in Genesis which sets up God's purpose for the earth and mankind....tell us what went wrong and how we lost what God was offering us as Adam's descendants, and how he intended to fix it, by means of his Messiah. And then in Revelation, he tells us how he gets it all back for us. Its one story and the trinity or even a duality of God does not fit in anywhere.

We only gain knowledge by evaluating what we read in the scriptures, and going with our gut response to it. A faulty translation will not take us anywhere good. This why word studies are so important. We have resources available to us today that the ancients would have given their eye teeth for. Do we use them to the full though? We must. Ignorance is one of the devil's best tools.....spiritual laziness is another. He counts on the fact that most who identify as "Christians" just want someone to know it all for them....

When I first heard the truth, I was so excited by it that I had a million questions that demanded answers.....I asked them all and gradually over many years, I got my answers straight from God's word. Slowly I put all the pieces of the puzzle together....I had some pieces from my childhood, snatches from the Bible and its stories...but I wanted to know more about the God who was responsible for my being....why was I here, and what future can I expect? How did Jesus sacrifice save people? What was he saving them from?
What do you do with these kinds of questions? How do you gain your knowledge?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And you will never make them fit if you use a really bad English translation. All of the passages you quoted have a meaning different to the one you gave them.....it would be a long post in deed to address them all. But "all scripture is inspired of God" so there can be no contradictions. Can I ask you if you have ever come across a direct statement from either Jehovah or his Son stating categorically that he and his Son are ONE GOD?...or that the holy spirit is God?

I look at many, many different translations.
All of the passages I quoted came from different translations. I didn’t look to see which translation came up when I was searching for each verse. I find it doubtful that all the verses I quoted have a different meaning than the one I see. I rather think you are wrong on their meaning. And as for the second one (your last question) God is Spirit. The Holy Spirit. God is not one Spirit and the Holy Spirit a different Spirit, although I’m fairly certain you will say they are bad translations that say God is Spirit or that I give wrong meaning to God is Spirit. Your twisting around and machinations on this has come as a surprise to me, but that’s what trying to support bad doctrine we’ve swallowed does to us.

I agree there can be no contradictions, which is why I look at ALL the words of God - otherwise there are contradictions, as every thread and debate in the whole forum shows, including this one!

Yes to your last two questions. I gave some pretty direct verses/statements from both Jesus and God for your last two questions but you say they are bad translations and don’t mean what they say.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

the only way for the devil to mess with the Bible text and message is to have translations say what the original never did.

Lol. All he has to do is say what he’s been saying from the beginning! Did God REALLY say…?
Somehow, I don’t think the Holy Spirit needs me to know the original languages to teach me. He’s done a pretty good job with my limited English.