A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Aunty Jane]

I meant that since, as you say, had the Jews retained the Divine Name we would not be having this discussion, the problem with this argument being that the apostles were Jews. If there was indeed a problem with understanding things properly, wouldn't they have fixed it themselves? Because they didn't. They continued to use κυρίος in all sorts of contexts where, as JWs try to argue, the word is referring to Jehovah one instant and Jesus the next.

Wow....did you not know that the Jewish disciples of Jesus did know the divine name and most likely used it, especially in their worship.

When Jesus picked up the scroll of Isaiah and read it aloud in the synagogue, he read...
Isaiah 61:1-2...
“The spirit of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah is upon me,
Because Jehovah anointed me to declare good news to the meek.
He sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And the wide opening of the eyes to the prisoners,
2 To proclaim the year of Jehovah’s goodwill
And the day of vengeance of our God,
To comfort all who mourn.”

Jesus having said in John 17:6...“I have made your name manifest to the men whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word.”

And having said in the Lord’s Prayer that God’s name be “hallowed”, it was very evident that God’s name was to be held in high esteem.....not buried in human tradition and superstition.

Ancient manuscripts in Greek have been found with the Hebrew Tetragrammaton in the Greek text.



This is why the NWT replaces God’s name in every instance where it had been substituted in the OT and with with “Kyrios”, even in the Greek NT because, when the apostles quoted OT scripture, they would have contained the divine name.

Jehovah is not a nameless God....he never was.
“Then God said once more to Moses:
“This is what you are to say to the Israelites, ‘Jehovah the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered from generation to generation.” (Exodus 3:15)

If the Jews had obeyed their God and retained God’s name “forever” as they were instructed, then no trinity would ever have been possible. There would always have been a clear distinction between the “Sovereign Lord Jehovah” and the “Lord Jesus Christ”. (1 Corinthians 8:5-6)

 

[Aunty Jane]

Who visits Australia in December? Maybe because it's warmer there right now?

It’s summer and the weather sends the Northerners down for the warmth and sunshine...we have an entire continent’s worth of beaches....some of which are pretty much deserted. No high rise and no crowds...what more could you want?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Wow....did you not know that the Jewish disciples of Jesus did know the divine name and most likely used it, especially in their worship.

But Jane, if they used it in their worship, why did they not use it in their letters to one another?

When Jesus picked up the scroll of Isaiah and read it aloud in the synagogue, he read...
Isaiah 61:1-2...
“The spirit of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah is upon me,
Because Jehovah anointed me to declare good news to the meek.
He sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And the wide opening of the eyes to the prisoners,
2 To proclaim the year of Jehovah’s goodwill
And the day of vengeance of our God,
To comfort all who mourn.”

But both Luke and John have the Lord using only the word κυρίος when quoting Isaiah 61:1-2.

Ancient manuscripts in Greek have been found with the Hebrew Tetragrammaton in the Greek text.

Ok, now without sounding dismissive, to believe the argument put forward by this position necessitates subscribing to a conspiracy theory of sorts. I could add my own comments, but let me just quote you from someone who did a nice piece on it first. This is the section on the New Testament, but he treats the LXX and extra-Biblical uses as well:

The short form of the divine name, Yah, which we noted occurs 26 times in the Psalms in the expression Hallelujah, appears four times in the same expression in the Greek manuscripts at Revelation 19:1-6. Otherwise, no form of the divine name, whether the tetragrammaton, the Greek phonetic form IAΩ, or any other form, appears in any of the nearly six thousand Greek manuscripts of the New Testament writings that are extant today.9

The earliest extant Greek manuscripts of New Testament books that quote from Old Testament texts that used the name YHWH in Hebrew were P46, P66, and P75, produced around AD 175-225. That was some 75 to 150 or so years after the books were originally written and long before the Christian movement had gained any political acceptance (let alone power) within the Roman Empire, as it eventually did in the fourth century. In the late second century, Christianity was a quickly growing movement but one that had no centralized or hierarchical authority. Nor was there any guild or pool of authorized copyists acting on behalf of a single or organized religious institution. Serious efforts to standardize the Greek texts of the New Testament used throughout the church did not develop until hundreds of years later.

Here is the fatal problem with the Watchtower claim that the New Testament writers used the divine name: the claim inevitably requires a fantastic conspiracy theory to explain how all of the manuscripts that are extant, including manuscripts discovered in the past hundred-plus years, happen to lack the divine name. We have a couple dozen or more New Testament manuscripts dating from before Constantine and not one uses the divine name. Again, the church had no mechanism during the second or third centuries to gather up unacceptable copies of the New Testament writings and dispose of them.

The evidence is truly overwhelming that the New Testament writers did not use the divine name YHWH or any form of it, except for the expression Hallelujah in Revelation 19:1-6. As much as any statement of fact can be made about the original wording of the New Testament, this conclusion should be regarded as a well-established fact.
Was the name Jehovah originally used in the New Testament?

Jehovah is not a nameless God....he never was.

This much we agree on, but the older I get the more I am starting to understand why the Jews drifted away from using it. I'm not saying that in reference to you, but I have seen outright occultists using the name "Yah" to reference the Christian God, and throwing it around like toilet paper. Sane with many Jewish roots types who constantly want to throw around the name "Yahweh" like doing so makes them holier than the rest of us.

I think there were good reasons why the New Testament writers adopted κυρίος instead of throwing His name around as if it were NOT hallowed.

 

[Hidden In Him]

It’s summer and the weather sends the Northerners down for the warmth and sunshine...we have an entire continent’s worth of beaches....some of which are pretty much deserted. No high rise and no crowds...what more could you want?

Ah... well that does sound good. I love beaches. The tourism might be irritating, but the other way to look at it is that you have stuff that everybody wants to come see, and you get to enjoy it all year round. :)

What I wouldn't do to live near a beach. One of the bigger mistakes of my life.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I'll give you a quote from mine then.....:)

"The New World Bible Translation Committee determined that there is compelling evidence that the Tetragrammaton did appear in the original Greek manuscripts. The decision was based on the following evidence:

• Copies of the Hebrew Scriptures used in the days of Jesus and his apostles contained the Tetragrammaton throughout the text. In the past, few people disputed that conclusion. Now that copies of the Hebrew Scriptures dating back to the first century have been discovered near Qumran, the point has been proved beyond any doubt.
  
• In the days of Jesus and his apostles, the Tetragrammaton also appeared in Greek translations of the Hebrew Scriptures. For centuries, scholars thought that the Tetragrammaton was absent from manuscripts of the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures. Then, in the mid-20th century, some very old fragments of the Greek Septuagint version that existed in Jesus’ day were brought to the attention of scholars. Those fragments contain the personal name of God, written in Hebrew characters. So in Jesus’ day, copies of the Scriptures in Greek did contain the divine name. However, by the fourth century C.E., major manuscripts of the Greek Septuagint, such as the Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus, did not contain the divine name in the books from Genesis through Malachi (where it had been in earlier manuscripts). Hence, it is not surprising that in texts preserved from that time period, the divine name is not found in the so-called New Testament, or Greek Scripture portion of the Bible.

• Since the Christian Greek Scriptures were an inspired addition to the sacred Hebrew Scriptures, the sudden disappearance of Jehovah’s name from the text would seem inconsistent. About the middle of the first century C.E., the disciple James said to the elders in Jerusalem: “Symeon has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name.” (Acts 15:14) It would not be logical for James to make such a statement if no one in the first century knew or used God’s name.
  
• The divine name appears in its abbreviated form in the Christian Greek Scriptures. At Revelation 19:1, 3, 4, 6, the divine name is embedded in the word “Hallelujah.” This comes from a Hebrew expression that literally means “Praise Jah.” “Jah” is a contraction of the name Jehovah. Many names used in the Christian Greek Scriptures were derived from the divine name. In fact, reference works explain that Jesus’ own name means “Jehovah Is Salvation.”
  
• Early Jewish writings indicate that Jewish Christians used the divine name in their writings. The Tosefta, a written collection of oral laws that was completed by about 300 C.E., says with regard to Christian writings that were burned on the Sabbath: “The books of the Evangelists and the books of the minim [thought to be Jewish Christians] they do not save from a fire. But they are allowed to burn where they are, they and the references to the Divine Name which are in them.” This same source quotes Rabbi Yosé the Galilean, who lived at the beginning of the second century C.E., as saying that on other days of the week, “one cuts out the references to the Divine Name which are in them [understood to refer to the Christian writings] and stores them away, and the rest burns.”
  
• Some Bible scholars acknowledge that it seems likely that the divine name appeared in Hebrew Scripture quotations found in the Christian Greek Scriptures. Under the heading “Tetragrammaton in the New Testament,” The Anchor Bible Dictionary states: “There is some evidence that the Tetragrammaton, the Divine Name, Yahweh, appeared in some or all of the O[ld] T[estament] quotations in the N[ew] T[estament] when the NT documents were first penned.” Scholar George Howard says: “Since the Tetragram was still written in the copies of the Greek Bible [the Septuagint] which made up the Scriptures of the early church, it is reasonable to believe that the N[ew] T[estament] writers, when quoting from Scripture, preserved the Tetragram within the biblical text.”
  
• Recognized Bible translators have used God’s name in the Christian Greek Scriptures. Some of these translators did so long before the New World Translation was produced. These translators and their works include: A Literal Translation of the New Testament . . . From the Text of the Vatican Manuscript, by Herman Heinfetter (1863); The Emphatic Diaglott, by Benjamin Wilson (1864); The Epistles of Paul in Modern English, by George Barker Stevens (1898); St. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans, by W. G. Rutherford (1900); The New Testament Letters, by J.W.C. Wand, Bishop of London (1946). In addition, in a Spanish translation in the early 20th century, translator Pablo Besson used “Jehová” at Luke 2:15 and Jude 14, and nearly 100 footnotes in his translation suggest the divine name as a likely rendering. Long before those translations, Hebrew versions of the Christian Greek Scriptures from the 16th century onward used the Tetragrammaton in many passages. In the German language alone, at least 11 versions use “Jehovah” (or the transliteration of the Hebrew “Yahweh”) in the Christian Greek Scriptures, while four translators add the name in parentheses after “Lord.” More than 70 German translations use the divine name in footnotes or commentaries."

• https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1001070205

 

[keithr]

... I poke fun at others and get a kick out of them poking fun at me, ...

I'm just trying to put a little brevity in the conversation, and I don't see the harm in that.

Eh? You are trying to be brief? That's what brevity means. Or did you mean you were trying to add a little humour? :

 

[keithr]

By failing to use God’s name, scripture became a playground for the devil, confusing people about which “Lord” was being spoken about.

Yes, I agree, and it still confuses people today (as in the OP quoted verses)! Why do people think that referring to Jesus as Lord means that he is God? Just because God was referred to as Lord too? And if you need to be referred to as Lord in order to be regarded as God, then why is the Holy Spirit never referred to as Lord Holy Spirit? (Perhaps God isn't a Trinity after all!)

A bit of a digression here ;), have you noticed that in Exodus 6:3 god says:

(3) and I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty; but by my name Yahweh I was not known to them.​

and yet in Genesis 15 it says:

(2) Abram said, “Lord Yahweh, what will you give me, since I go childless, and he who will inherit my estate is Eliezer of Damascus?”
(7) He said to Abram, “I am Yahweh who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give you this land to inherit it.”​

Some people might use that as an argument that God lied! I don't believe that God does lie, so I have to presume that God inspired/directed Moses to write it using His name for our better understanding, and that Abraham really didn't know God's name. It's slightly confusing though!

 

[Hidden In Him]

Eh? You are trying to be brief? That's what brevity means. Or did you mean you were trying to add a little humour? :

Ah! I meant levity, but wrote brevity. I do that sometimes. I used to write out the word ascribe, when I actually meant subscribe.

Works well for rhyming; not so much for communication.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I'll give you a quote from mine then.....:)

"The New World Bible Translation Committee determined that there is compelling evidence that the Tetragrammaton did appear in the original Greek manuscripts. The decision was based on the following evidence:

• Copies of the Hebrew Scriptures used in the days of Jesus and his apostles contained the Tetragrammaton throughout the text. In the past, few people disputed that conclusion. Now that copies of the Hebrew Scriptures dating back to the first century have been discovered near Qumran, the point has been proved beyond any doubt.
• In the days of Jesus and his apostles, the Tetragrammaton also appeared in Greek translations of the Hebrew Scriptures. For centuries, scholars thought that the Tetragrammaton was absent from manuscripts of the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures. Then, in the mid-20th century, some very old fragments of the Greek Septuagint version that existed in Jesus’ day were brought to the attention of scholars. Those fragments contain the personal name of God, written in Hebrew characters. So in Jesus’ day, copies of the Scriptures in Greek did contain the divine name. However, by the fourth century C.E., major manuscripts of the Greek Septuagint, such as the Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus, did not contain the divine name in the books from Genesis through Malachi (where it had been in earlier manuscripts). Hence, it is not surprising that in texts preserved from that time period, the divine name is not found in the so-called New Testament, or Greek Scripture portion of the Bible.

• Since the Christian Greek Scriptures were an inspired addition to the sacred Hebrew Scriptures, the sudden disappearance of Jehovah’s name from the text would seem inconsistent. About the middle of the first century C.E., the disciple James said to the elders in Jerusalem: “Symeon has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name.” (Acts 15:14) It would not be logical for James to make such a statement if no one in the first century knew or used God’s name.
• The divine name appears in its abbreviated form in the Christian Greek Scriptures. At Revelation 19:1, 3, 4, 6, the divine name is embedded in the word “Hallelujah.” This comes from a Hebrew expression that literally means “Praise Jah.” “Jah” is a contraction of the name Jehovah. Many names used in the Christian Greek Scriptures were derived from the divine name. In fact, reference works explain that Jesus’ own name means “Jehovah Is Salvation.”
• Early Jewish writings indicate that Jewish Christians used the divine name in their writings. The Tosefta, a written collection of oral laws that was completed by about 300 C.E., says with regard to Christian writings that were burned on the Sabbath: “The books of the Evangelists and the books of the minim [thought to be Jewish Christians] they do not save from a fire. But they are allowed to burn where they are, they and the references to the Divine Name which are in them.” This same source quotes Rabbi Yosé the Galilean, who lived at the beginning of the second century C.E., as saying that on other days of the week, “one cuts out the references to the Divine Name which are in them [understood to refer to the Christian writings] and stores them away, and the rest burns.”
• Some Bible scholars acknowledge that it seems likely that the divine name appeared in Hebrew Scripture quotations found in the Christian Greek Scriptures. Under the heading “Tetragrammaton in the New Testament,” The Anchor Bible Dictionary states: “There is some evidence that the Tetragrammaton, the Divine Name, Yahweh, appeared in some or all of the O[ld] T[estament] quotations in the N[ew] T[estament] when the NT documents were first penned.” Scholar George Howard says: “Since the Tetragram was still written in the copies of the Greek Bible [the Septuagint] which made up the Scriptures of the early church, it is reasonable to believe that the N[ew] T[estament] writers, when quoting from Scripture, preserved the Tetragram within the biblical text.”
• Recognized Bible translators have used God’s name in the Christian Greek Scriptures. Some of these translators did so long before the New World Translation was produced. These translators and their works include: A Literal Translation of the New Testament . . . From the Text of the Vatican Manuscript, by Herman Heinfetter (1863); The Emphatic Diaglott, by Benjamin Wilson (1864); The Epistles of Paul in Modern English, by George Barker Stevens (1898); St. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans, by W. G. Rutherford (1900); The New Testament Letters, by J.W.C. Wand, Bishop of London (1946). In addition, in a Spanish translation in the early 20th century, translator Pablo Besson used “Jehová” at Luke 2:15 and Jude 14, and nearly 100 footnotes in his translation suggest the divine name as a likely rendering. Long before those translations, Hebrew versions of the Christian Greek Scriptures from the 16th century onward used the Tetragrammaton in many passages. In the German language alone, at least 11 versions use “Jehovah” (or the transliteration of the Hebrew “Yahweh”) in the Christian Greek Scriptures, while four translators add the name in parentheses after “Lord.” More than 70 German translations use the divine name in footnotes or commentaries."

• https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1001070205

This is again making a case for a conspiracy, Jane, which is problematic from a purely logical perspective, as the article I cited pointed out.

But let me ask you this: Supposing the conspiracy really did take place, and the Divine Name was somehow removed from all MSS within the first few centuries of the Christian Era, and did not appear again until the JWs restored it in Biblical form in the 1800s. As I recall, you guys teach that no one is saved unless they are a Jehovahs Witness. Please correct me if I'm wrong there, but if so, this would mean the Living God left all of humanity blowing in the breeze for the better part of 15 centuries before He finally opened up a door (again) for true salvation and hearing the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

How do you account for God allowing it to be covered over for the better part of 15 centuries? :

 

[Hidden In Him]

Yes, I agree, and it still confuses people today (as in the OP quoted verses)! Why do people think that referring to Jesus as Lord means that he is God? Just because God was referred to as Lord too?

It's not quite that simple though, Keithr. As I was telling Jane, the reason the JW reading for this particular passage is problematic is because changing the translation of the word in mid-passage creates an unnatural reading for the 1st century ear/ mind to have to decipher.

See Post #40.

 

[APAK]

I'll give you a quote from mine then.....:)

"The New World Bible Translation Committee determined that there is compelling evidence that the Tetragrammaton did appear in the original Greek manuscripts. The decision was based on the following evidence:

• Copies of the Hebrew Scriptures used in the days of Jesus and his apostles contained the Tetragrammaton throughout the text. In the past, few people disputed that conclusion. Now that copies of the Hebrew Scriptures dating back to the first century have been discovered near Qumran, the point has been proved beyond any doubt.
• In the days of Jesus and his apostles, the Tetragrammaton also appeared in Greek translations of the Hebrew Scriptures. For centuries, scholars thought that the Tetragrammaton was absent from manuscripts of the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures. Then, in the mid-20th century, some very old fragments of the Greek Septuagint version that existed in Jesus’ day were brought to the attention of scholars. Those fragments contain the personal name of God, written in Hebrew characters. So in Jesus’ day, copies of the Scriptures in Greek did contain the divine name. However, by the fourth century C.E., major manuscripts of the Greek Septuagint, such as the Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus, did not contain the divine name in the books from Genesis through Malachi (where it had been in earlier manuscripts). Hence, it is not surprising that in texts preserved from that time period, the divine name is not found in the so-called New Testament, or Greek Scripture portion of the Bible.

• Since the Christian Greek Scriptures were an inspired addition to the sacred Hebrew Scriptures, the sudden disappearance of Jehovah’s name from the text would seem inconsistent. About the middle of the first century C.E., the disciple James said to the elders in Jerusalem: “Symeon has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name.” (Acts 15:14) It would not be logical for James to make such a statement if no one in the first century knew or used God’s name.
• The divine name appears in its abbreviated form in the Christian Greek Scriptures. At Revelation 19:1, 3, 4, 6, the divine name is embedded in the word “Hallelujah.” This comes from a Hebrew expression that literally means “Praise Jah.” “Jah” is a contraction of the name Jehovah. Many names used in the Christian Greek Scriptures were derived from the divine name. In fact, reference works explain that Jesus’ own name means “Jehovah Is Salvation.”
• Early Jewish writings indicate that Jewish Christians used the divine name in their writings. The Tosefta, a written collection of oral laws that was completed by about 300 C.E., says with regard to Christian writings that were burned on the Sabbath: “The books of the Evangelists and the books of the minim [thought to be Jewish Christians] they do not save from a fire. But they are allowed to burn where they are, they and the references to the Divine Name which are in them.” This same source quotes Rabbi Yosé the Galilean, who lived at the beginning of the second century C.E., as saying that on other days of the week, “one cuts out the references to the Divine Name which are in them [understood to refer to the Christian writings] and stores them away, and the rest burns.”
• Some Bible scholars acknowledge that it seems likely that the divine name appeared in Hebrew Scripture quotations found in the Christian Greek Scriptures. Under the heading “Tetragrammaton in the New Testament,” The Anchor Bible Dictionary states: “There is some evidence that the Tetragrammaton, the Divine Name, Yahweh, appeared in some or all of the O[ld] T[estament] quotations in the N[ew] T[estament] when the NT documents were first penned.” Scholar George Howard says: “Since the Tetragram was still written in the copies of the Greek Bible [the Septuagint] which made up the Scriptures of the early church, it is reasonable to believe that the N[ew] T[estament] writers, when quoting from Scripture, preserved the Tetragram within the biblical text.”
• Recognized Bible translators have used God’s name in the Christian Greek Scriptures. Some of these translators did so long before the New World Translation was produced. These translators and their works include: A Literal Translation of the New Testament . . . From the Text of the Vatican Manuscript, by Herman Heinfetter (1863); The Emphatic Diaglott, by Benjamin Wilson (1864); The Epistles of Paul in Modern English, by George Barker Stevens (1898); St. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans, by W. G. Rutherford (1900); The New Testament Letters, by J.W.C. Wand, Bishop of London (1946). In addition, in a Spanish translation in the early 20th century, translator Pablo Besson used “Jehová” at Luke 2:15 and Jude 14, and nearly 100 footnotes in his translation suggest the divine name as a likely rendering. Long before those translations, Hebrew versions of the Christian Greek Scriptures from the 16th century onward used the Tetragrammaton in many passages. In the German language alone, at least 11 versions use “Jehovah” (or the transliteration of the Hebrew “Yahweh”) in the Christian Greek Scriptures, while four translators add the name in parentheses after “Lord.” More than 70 German translations use the divine name in footnotes or commentaries."

• https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1001070205

I agree with your assessment AJ, and there is much more that can be said supporting the 'yanking' of YHWH out from NT scripture. Even without going to your congregation and their sources.

Founders of the destructive Trinity concept and even those later, after the 1400s, did major damage to scripture in their widespread alterations deletions and additions. It is ironic that a person recently got canned off here for creating a canon of scripture amongst other things, based on the Gospels and Thomas, and Revelation. Through my research over the years, these are essentially the most reliable and unstained Books in the NT...go figure right...Mark being recognized at the 1st Gospel writer and the more the original source. I would wager the early Trinitarians actually burned genuine scripture sources and parts of Books to forge their diabolical scheme of a trinity...

Why do we see many more recent retranslations of the Bible, especially of the NT. Because of the past trampling and abuse of scripture of course. They are trying to get it right and mostly an exercise in futility I'm afraid. Folks need to be weary of what they read.....rant stopped//

Great New Year start to you AJ, and your company in Sydney. The place where my Mum had her pram stolen from the Sydney Zoo...lol..told it to you before:)...

 

[Wrangler]

This is again making a case for a conspiracy

Can't it just be error?

I am certain there was conspiracy in the 4th century.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Can't it just be error?

But it would still beg the question as to why God would allow it, and more importantly not correct it for the better part of two millennia. Heresies like Gnosticism made a real run at orthodox Christianity for a time, but they never came anywhere close to actually succeeding at rewriting the Christian Faith. One would have to ask why He allowed this to succeed, and go on for so incredibly long unchecked.

You see, if I were accept a theory like this, it would be enough to make me question if the Christian God were truly God at all. I simply subscribe firmly to the idea that He has made certain the truth was available to mankind from the preaching of the gospel onwards, and has not allowed it to be corrupted. Mistranslated in some areas, yes. Misinterpreted in many areas, definitely. But not completely corrupted so that even the original texts became fraudulent. That just goes too far for me. And moreover, if this were the case, we STILL would not have reliable original texts to prove it. We would still be at the mercy of a theory, without the proof of an actual full Greek text to go on to prove the point.

Too much for me to accept. Creates a "God" who is inept, and incapable of preserving His word from being corrupted by humanity and the god of this world.

 

[Wrangler]

But it would still beg the question as to why God would allow it, and more importantly not correct it for the better part of two millennia.

Odd that you suppose God would allow one type of sin and even many types of sin but not this type of sin.

You see, if I were accept a theory like this, it would be enough to make me question if the Christian God were truly God at all.

Such is the power of trinitarian idolatry.

In another thread I asked this question and wonder what your answer is, A or B?

A. Bring people to Jesus, even if they do not believe he is God incarnate.
B. Prevent people from coming to Jesus, making belief in the trinity an obstacle & prerequisite to people coming to Jesus.​

 

[keithr]

But let me ask you this: Supposing the conspiracy really did take place, and the Divine Name was somehow removed from all MSS within the first few centuries of the Christian Era, and did not appear again until the JWs restored it in Biblical form in the 1800s.

That can't be right - the Jehovah's Witnesses was founded in 1931.

 

[Hidden In Him]

That can't be right - the Jehovah's Witnesses was founded in 1931.

They officially adopted the name in 1931, Keithr, but I'm referring more specifically to the Watchtower Society, which goes back to the 1800s and its founder Charles Taze Russell. But technically you are correct. A full Bible translation for the Watchtower didn't exist until the 1900s. I'm simply referring to the origins of the teachings.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Odd that you suppose God would allow one type of sin and even many types of sin but not this type of sin.

Ok, come on. You're equating common sin with the complete rewriting of scripture to deny millions a chance at salvation as being on par with one another? It's that kind of argument that makes me sometimes not take your posts fully seriously, Wrangler.

Such is the power of trinitarian idolatry.

What, to use common sense? If I am to believe He's so inept, how am I in the same breath supposed to believe He is still nevertheless "God"?

In another thread I asked this question and wonder what your answer is, A or B?
A. Bring people to Jesus, even if they do not believe he is God incarnate.
B. Prevent people from coming to Jesus, making belief in the trinity an obstacle & prerequisite to people coming to Jesus.

C. Refuse to assent to being forced to make only one of these two choices.

Seriously, no offense Wrangler, but you are usually smarter than this with your arguments. These latest two aren't real winners.

 

[Wrangler]

Ok, come on. You're equating common sin with ...

Putting aside your Ad Homenim, scripture does not differentiate between sin - except lack of forgiveness and blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Your doctrine proliferations doctrine beyond God's words.

[/QUOTE]What, to use common sense? If I am to believe He's so inept, how am I in the same breath supposed to believe He is still nevertheless "God"?[/QUOTE]

Again, odd that you relate human sin with God being inept. IMO, that is blasphemy.

And again, your idolatry is held more dear than not being blasphemous toward God. And again, this shows trinitarianism does not bring forth the Fruit of the Spirit.

In another thread I asked this question and wonder what your answer is, A or B?
A. Bring people to Jesus, even if they do not believe he is God incarnate.
B. Prevent people from coming to Jesus, making belief in the trinity an obstacle & prerequisite to people coming to Jesus.

[/QUOTE]C. Refuse to assent to being forced to make only one of these two choices.[/QUOTE]

Those are the only 2 choices, which puts your answer in violation of Paul's quip to be all things to all people so some might be saved. Your idolatry is more important than bringing people to Christ. That says it all.

[/QUOTE]Seriously, no offense Wrangler, but you are usually smarter than this with your arguments. These latest two aren't real winners.[/QUOTE]

Just another Ad Homenim for that is all you have.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yes, I agree, and it still confuses people today (as in the OP quoted verses)! Why do people think that referring to Jesus as Lord means that he is God? Just because God was referred to as Lord too? And if you need to be referred to as Lord in order to be regarded as God, then why is the Holy Spirit never referred to as Lord Holy Spirit? (Perhaps God isn't a Trinity after all!)

A bit of a digression here ;), have you noticed that in Exodus 6:3 god says:

(3) and I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty; but by my name Yahweh I was not known to them.​

and yet in Genesis 15 it says:

(2) Abram said, “Lord Yahweh, what will you give me, since I go childless, and he who will inherit my estate is Eliezer of Damascus?”
(7) He said to Abram, “I am Yahweh who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give you this land to inherit it.”​

Some people might use that as an argument that God lied! I don't believe that God does lie, so I have to presume that God inspired/directed Moses to write it using His name for our better understanding, and that Abraham really didn't know God's name. It's slightly confusing though!

Yes I have examined that question, and from the Jewish Tanakh, Exodus 3:13-15 indicates perhaps a new aspect to his name or a better understanding.....

“13 And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?" יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם:

14 God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'" ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:

15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation.”

The meaning of God’s name took on a significance that was not obvious before. In his promise to Abraham that all the nations would be blessed by means of his descendants, it was unclear how that would take place. But as we see with the way they were rescued from Egyptian slavery, that God was showing himself to Abraham’s descendants in a completely different way now.

The meaning of God’s name was “I Will Be What I Will Be” (Not I AM) and so this was, in my understanding, demonstrating that God would “Be” whatever he needed to be in order for his purpose in connection to Israel to come to its completion. We can see all through Israel’s turbulent history that Yahweh did indeed need to respond to their conduct in various ways.

This makes sense to me.....

 

[APAK]

Yes I have examined that question, and from the Jewish Tanakh, Exodus 3:13-15 indicates perhaps a new aspect to his name or a better understanding.....

“13 And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?" יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם:

14 God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'" ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:

15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation.”

The meaning of God’s name took on a significance that was not obvious before. In his promise to Abraham that all the nations would be blessed by means of his descendants, it was unclear how that would take place. But as we see with the way they were rescued from Egyptian slavery, that God was showing himself to Abraham’s descendants in a completely different way now.

The meaning of God’s name was “I Will Be What I Will Be” (Not I AM) and so this was, in my understanding, demonstrating that God would “Be” whatever he needed to be in order for his purpose in connection to Israel to come to its completion. We can see all through Israel’s turbulent history that Yahweh did indeed need to respond to their conduct in various ways.

This makes sense to me.....

Well put AJ, as I have also done the same as you, in a very, very similar way in the past. Many folks mix translated Hebrew and Greek words and phrases together when on the surface they seem to say the same thing, out of ignorance. And Trinitarians do it most often to attempt to prop up or support their narratives. And I was especially drawing your attention to when you wrote '...“I Will Be What I Will Be” (Not I AM)..."

VG work, and then who listens or even attempts to research these things out for themselves?