Except then, you WERENT dead in transgression and sin, since you will live forever whether you are born again or you aren’t.
Church Bashing
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Except then, you WERENT dead in transgression and sin, since you will live forever whether you are born again or you aren’t.
That's with your definition of death, that you have a problem with this passage.
Ephesians 2:1-5 LITV
1) and you being dead in deviations and sins,
2) in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit now working in the sons of disobedience,
3) among whom we also all conducted ourselves in times past in the lusts of our flesh, doing the things willed of the flesh and of the understanding, and were by nature the children of wrath, even as the rest.
4) But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5) even we being dead in deviations, He made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are being saved),
So then it becomes relevant to examine how we should define what is and what is not a Biblical idea of death. Someone who is dead in sin both exists, and is dead.
How is a man both dead, and still alive?
Much love!
Taken
Well-Known Member
It is being “Physically” precise about WHAT is ALIVE and WHAT is NOT.
A body’s life is its Blood.
A soul’s life is Gods Breath.
A reborn spirit’s life is alive Because of Gods Seed.
All body’s life, shall die.
All Souls are not condemned to death.
All mens “natural spirits” do not receive Gods Seed and become born again into eternal spiritual life.
All souls belong to God. The Life in all souls belongs to God.
A physically dead body, knows nothing, thinks, feels, nothing.
Natural spirit of men (which is a mans natural truth in his heart), dies with a natural body.
What is left? All souls, that God can remove His life (breath) from, or allow a His Life (breath) to remain in the soul, and forever separated from God.
Then there is “SPIRITUAL” death. Which simply means ANY Life form of a man, that is Against God....is Spiritually dead to God.
Ie Spiritually not with God is Spiritually dead.
Living body’s Against God.
Living souls IN a body that are Against God.
Natural spirits IN a body, that are Against God.
Crucified with Christ....your body is accounted dead....and shall be risen up without corruption. And mean while, we live in Jesus’ risen body...why we are called ‘IN’ Christ.
I could ask the same thing regarding Samuel.
But your objection is the second death, that if the first death didn't mean cessation of existence, the second death does, even though Jesus prophesied the everlasting suffering of the unrighteous.
However, if you align your understanding of what death is, to the way the Bible speaks of death, then you'll find these seeming difficulties vanish.
Much love!
Because I actually SEE now the damage being done TO the people who swallow it. I know if they stay humble and refuse to judge unbelievers, they will be okay. But that’s not what the doctrines do to them. The doctrines take AWAY humility and LEAD to judging unbelievers. So the only better way I can find is to call out the false doctrines and hope a few will go look for themselves.
Submit to a man who is messing with people’s eternal destinies? You would be an utter fool to submit to that.
So, you know that's not what I said right?
I think I'm to the nevermind point.
Much love!
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
Anyhow, he is gone, and I like our current pastor. But soon we might get another one, and I dread that. There are a lot of liberal pastors in this conference.Clever, which could be forwarded to “be wrong to object to what he was doing”...
But I’m not to the never mind point. It’s too important. Eternal torment of unbelievers leads to judging and condemning them when we aren’t supposed to do that. We are told to leave their judging to God and not judge anything before the time. And when we do that, we are also speaking wrongly about God and ignoring the warning that we will be judged as we’ve judged them. The doctrine harms those who swallow the leaven.
To be dead in trespasses and sins means to be dead spiritually. The spirit is dead but the body and soul are alive. And because souls are imperishable, the souls do live on forever. If un-regenerated, they remain in Hades until the final judgment.
Yes. All souls are eternal or imperishable. That is why the gift of eternal life is offered to all. And those who reject or refuse this gift face eternal damnation. This is Bible Doctrine 101.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
People disagree with what the Truth is in the scriptures. Because they disagree there will be those that will speak out concerning what they believe is false religion. That's been going on for centuries. I don't see that changing. Many feel or believe there's been too much acceptance of what the scriptures have shown to be unrighteous coming into their churches and they see that it has spread throughout Christendom. So they speak out.
Matthew 10:28 - "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
Ezekiel 18:20 - The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."
Agreed Stunned...the soul that goes to "hell" will be destroyed which leads me to ponder antihalation. NOT there at all right now but all the same, we have to look at all options the scriptures show. Ooopsi,,I pulled a "Jen"
Off topic sry Does not sound like all souls are eternal.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
There are many Christians who do not belong to a cult, yet cleave to cultist doctrines. Doctrines that have links to scripture, but the final conclusive summary of those links are assumptions and error. Once you start off course, even a slight deviation, can in the longer term lead to being so far off the truth as to be unrecognizable.
And the truth will always remain truth. The error will, over the course of time, attract to itself other errors in order to support the initial error. And the more errors they attract, the harder it is to cast aside in favor of the truth... And the harder those who cleave to error, the harder they react to those who cleave to truth.
I will offer you but one example. The natural immortality of the soul. This error has led to the far greater error of eternal torment because it is the only logical conclusion one can make in response to the doctrine of natural immortality. And the reason eternal torment is a greater error, is because it impacts directly who we think of as God, and our opinion of His character... His justice... And his love.
And the truth will always remain truth. The error will, over the course of time, attract to itself other errors in order to support the initial error. And the more errors they attract, the harder it is to cast aside in favor of the truth... And the harder those who cleave to error, the harder they react to those who cleave to truth.
I will offer you but one example. The natural immortality of the soul. This error has led to the far greater error of eternal torment because it is the only logical conclusion one can make in response to the doctrine of natural immortality. And the reason eternal torment is a greater error, is because it impacts directly who we think of as God, and our opinion of His character... His justice... And his love.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
One is still walking... He's alive physically... Dead in sin. He is not dead. But the soul that sinneth...it shall die.
Assuming you are sincere in your request, all you have to do is read about (1) the resurrection of the daughter of Jairus, (2) the resurrection of the widow's son in Nain, and (3) the resurrection of Lazarus (all miracles of Christ), to know that souls are imperishable and eternal.
But this is also what the Bible reveals:
1. The soul departs from the body at death (Gen 35:18)
2. The soul returns to the body when revived or resurrected (1 Kings 17:21,22)
3. It is God who takes away the soul at death (Job 27:8)
4. It is God who keeps the soul from Sheol (called "the pit" metaphorically in this passage) (Job 33:18-30) [Note: The KJV translators also mistakenly used the word "grave" for "Sheol" and have caused a lot of confusion]
Sheol/Hades was the region in the lower parts of the earth (or "the heart of the earth) where the soul and spirit of Christ went while His body lay in the tomb. All the others souls of the departed OT saints were also there. That is why we read these as the words of Christ explained by Peter: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in Hades, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption... He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in Hades, neither his flesh did see corruption. [Note: the KJV translators should not have inserted the word "hell" for "Hades"]
Taken
Well-Known Member
SBG ~ Break it down step by step to get the understanding of the whole.
* Man- IS a body, HAS a soul, HAS a natural spirit.
Body -
natural born Flesh -
Seed of mans body of dust -
Life is Blood -
Heart maintains Blood life -
Hearts stops beating Blood life dies -
All flesh life shall die.
returns to dust -
shall be raised in corrupt flesh -
OR raised in uncorrupted flesh -
all flesh shall be judged -
uncorrupted flesh glorified (made holy, perfect)
corrupted flesh destroyed in hell fire.
Soul -
Senses made alive via Gods Breath Life -
living souls (alive senses) departs dead flesh body -
Saved living soul goes to Heaven with God, to wait judgement -
Unsaved living soul goes to Hell without God, (torments), to wait judgement.
All souls belong to God, who imparts it in a body, or departs it out of a body.
All life IN a Soul belongs to God, (God Breath, Gods Life).
Gods Judgement - to Leave His Life (Breath) in a soul, temporarily or forever.
Spirit -
Natural truth in mans heart -
Circumcised - cut off - new heart - Gods Seed - new truth - Gods Truth - Alive Forever - (born again)
OR Not circumcised - remains old - old truth - mans truth - dies with body.
Torment - the Effect of a living soul being Separated from God.
Torments temporarily - the Effect of a Living soul in hell, separated from God.
Torments forever - the Effect of a Living soul Remaining alive for ever, separated from God.
Gods Grace -
Offering of His WAY, for ALL men to be MADE eternally ALIVE WITH God.
Gods Mercy -
Men’s FREEWILL to Reject being MADE ALIVE eternally WITH God.
- Body dies, raise temporarily, sees God, destroyed, feels nothing.
- Soul raised, Life in soul returns to God, soul destroyed, feels nothing.
- Natural spirit, mans truth, dies with body, feels nothing.
- Temporary separation, final separation, forgotten, destroyed, no everlasting torment.
Gods Vengeance -
FOR, AGAINST WHOM, IS WHAT, HOW?
- IS FOR all that:
* * Preached AGAINST God
* * PERSECUTED those who Stand WITH God
- AGAINST WHOM ?
* * Fallen Angels
* * Living men
- IS WHAT ?
* * Forever Alive Separated From God
- IS HOW ?
* * Angels ARE created Spirits
.....Created Spirits can NOT DIE
.....Fallen Angels ARE Created Spirit Against God
.....*Fallen Angels Preach Against God
.....* Fallen Angels Persecute men BECAUSE they Stand WITH God.
.....Fallen Angels Sentenced to Forever Life, Separated from God.
- IS HOW ?
** Men ARE Body’s,
....Have Living souls
....Have Natural spirits.
....* Men Preach Against God
....* Men Persecute men BECAUSE they Stand WITH God.
....Men’s natural Body’s shall be destroyed.
....Men’s natural spirit (natural hearts truth) shall be destroyed
....Men’s Living soul (senses) (with Gods Breath of Life) shall remain ALIVE Forever, Separated from God.
Their Torments is Full Awareness Forever they are Separated from God, Gods Light, Gods Love, Gods Beauty, etc.
Forever; (nothing pleasant, to see, hear, touch, smell, taste) ...
Yet full well remembering many things they experienced
(that were pleasant, to see, hear, touch, smell, taste).
It’s a matter of WHAT remains ALIVE forever WITH God, in peace and joy...
^^ Gods Grace....Some men’s acceptance
AND WHAT exactly is separated from God forever, DEAD knowing nothing...
^^ Gods Mercy...Some men’s acceptance
AND WHAT exactly is separated ALIVE forever WITHOUT GOD, in agony..
^^ Gods Vengeance...Some men’s choice
Glory to God,
Taken
Im so sorry, I couldn’t follow this. If you could explain with verses I might be able to.
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