The Ones Who Are Left…

[Naomi25]

Per Revelation 20, the Great White Throne Judgment and destruction into the "lake of fire" will happen only after... Christ's "thousand years" reign. Did you miss reading this in Revelation 20?

The problem with reading Rev 20 and insisting that the Great White Throne judgement is something that will only occur after a future period of a 1000 years, is that you’ve already made an assumption of what is meant by ‘1000 years’.
Here’s some dot connecting that do not have to rely on ‘assumption’. For Christ to reign, it must be as King over a Kingdom. What does the NT have to say about a Kingdom period?

Luke 17:20-21
Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”

Ephesians 1:20-21
that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.


So, we know that there is a present Kingdom, and it is not, necessarily one we ought to expect…in other words, a physical, earthly one. It is, yet, one where Christ rules above all in this age.

What else might lead us to expect this ‘1000’ years being spoken of might occur now rather than after his return?

1 Corinthians 15:23-26
But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

1 Corinthians 15:54
When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”

This is a crucial passage. We know from verses like Eph 1:20 that Christ already has authority over all earthy powers. And we know from other passages like 2 Peter 3 that WHEN he comes, it will be AT that time that these powers will ‘destroyed’. 1 Cor 15 also tells us that it is AT his coming that the final enemy, the last enemy; death…will also be destroyed. We can know this because it is AT Christ’s coming that we receive our resurrection bodies….”behold…I tell you a mystery!”
When the last enemy is defeated, the Kingdom is handed over to the Father and death and Hades is thrown into the Lake of Fire. Which, you might note, is after the 1000 years. If death is not finally defeated, it cannot be thrown into the lake of fire. What is being spoken of here is the death of death…Rev 20:14


My point being: there is enough biblical evidence to warrant caution in assuming that a number that is almost certainly symbolic, must press our reading of scripture into it.

That 2 Peter 3:10 verse is about the "day of the Lord" when Jesus returns. That is NOT the Great White Throne judgment. It is simply the ending of this present world in the flesh. It's important to understand the Scripture as written, and not add men's doctrines into it which is what Amillennialists do. They refuse to believe the Revelation 20 "thousand years" reign by Christ over the wicked is literal. But it is a literal period. If that "thousand years" were just an analogy, then why isn't there an analogy given with it in Revelation 20?

You know…its very easy to start lobbing around the “men’s doctrines” label when it’s something you yourself disagree with…all the while refusing to acknowledge that folks who disagree with you genuinely pour through scripture to seek the best understanding they can. I have little to no respect for those I’m engaging with if they seek to fall back on such simple insults.
The fact is, while I do agree with some ideas from the “Amillennial camp”, I wouldn’t, strictly, call myself that…not any longer. So please, do not try and pigeon hole me.

You say that “The Day of the Lord” and the “Great White Throne Judgement” cannot be the same event. And, while I acknowledge the events that follow Christ’s coming may unfold as a series of events, I do not see chunks of time wedged in between them in terms of their being taught as totally different events.

Consider: we have these two “events” described to us:

Revelation 20:11-15
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Matthew 25:31-32, 46
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats….
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


Some would say that this clearly shows two separate judgments: one for the living (both just and unjust), the other for the dead (both just and unjust), right?
Except, then we have verses like these:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-16
For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

1 Corinthians 15:52
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

So…we have these that clearly tell us that both dead AND alive will rise at the same time. But again…John 5:28-29 puts the resurrection of the just and unjust together.
The are so intertwined throughout scripture, that while Rev 20 and Matt 25 SEEM to be describing different events, it seems more coherent to say that they are perhaps describing different aspects of the same event.

.I'm not going to argue with one who wants to follow men's leaven doctrine of Amillennialism. If that's what you want to follow, then goto. But you won't be aligned with what God's Holy Writ declares.

Well, you engaged me so thoroughly with Gods word and shown me how I’ve read is so incorrectly, how can I do anything but change my mind?
Save me from people who just through “Rev 20 doesn’t mean that you silly men’s doctrine, misunderstood leaven! Clearly you’d only have the leading of the Spirit if you agreed with me and MY take!”
Have a nice Christmas…I remain unruffled and content that at the very least, I’ve done more leg work in trying to be faithful to what all of scripture says.

 

[Naomi25]

And we should also not conclude an immediate end either, but wait until it happens, just like we have waited 1991 years between the Resurrection and the Second Coming. We are still waiting, and even the 2000 years is not set in stone yet.

I absolutely agree. I think its right to long for his return, as every generation has…but to do newspaper exegesis and declare “we’re living in the generation” is erroneous. Only God knows.

 

[Davy]

The problem with reading Rev 20 and insisting that the Great White Throne judgement is something that will only occur after a future period of a 1000 years, is that you’ve already made an assumption of what is meant by ‘1000 years’.
Here’s some dot connecting that do not have to rely on ‘assumption’. For Christ to reign, it must be as King over a Kingdom. What does the NT have to say about a Kingdom period?
....

Sorry, I don't debate with those on the false theory Amillennialism who wrongly treat the "thousand years" of Revelation 20 as a period from Christ's death and resurrection to now, which of course is a lot longer period than 1,000 years, and also it is plainly seen that Jesus is NOT HERE reigning over the wicked on earth. For someone to believe such ridiculousness they would have to have mud covering their flesh eyes, and their spiritual eyes.

 

[Naomi25]

Sorry, I don't debate with those on the false theory Amillennialism who wrongly treat the "thousand years" of Revelation 20 as a period from Christ's death and resurrection to now, which of course is a lot longer period than 1,000 years, and also it is plainly seen that Jesus is NOT HERE reigning over the wicked on earth. For someone to believe such ridiculousness they would have to have mud covering their flesh eyes, and their spiritual eyes.

That’s a rather bold claim to make in the face of such verses:

Luke 17:20-21
Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”


But never mind. Off you go then.

 

[Davy]

That’s a rather bold claim to make in the face of such verses:

Luke 17:20-21
Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”

You shouldn't make fallacious remarks about Scripture that you don't understand. The Luke 17 verse above is Jesus declaring that His future Kingdom is not of this present world of flesh. You obviously don't know the difference.

John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence.
KJV

 

[Naomi25]

You shouldn't make fallacious remarks about Scripture that you don't understand. The Luke 17 verse above is Jesus declaring that His future Kingdom is not of this present world of flesh. You obviously don't know the difference.

John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence.
KJV

I’m sorry. I thought you “didn’t debate” with filthy Amill’s like me. Have you changed your mind, or have I suddenly been elevated in your consideration?

 

[Davy]

I’m sorry. I thought you “didn’t debate” with filthy Amill’s like me. Have you changed your mind, or have I suddenly been elevated in your consideration?

Rebuke of mishandling Scripture is not a debate.

 

[Naomi25]

Rebuke of mishandling Scripture is not a debate.

This is a fundamentally true statement…but is it what you were doing?
Let’s have a little look-see at what you were claiming.
You said:

. also it is plainly seen that Jesus is NOT HERE reigning over the wicked on earth

I said no, clearly he is not, but he does not have to be here physically to be ruling over his kingdom, considering what this verse says:

Luke 17:20-21
Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”

You said:

. You shouldn't make fallacious remarks about Scripture that you don't understand. The Luke 17 verse above is Jesus declaring that His future Kingdom is not of this present world of flesh. You obviously don't know the difference

Okay…firstly, in Luke 17:20-21 nothing is said about a “future” kingdom…indeed, Christ says the Kingdom is “in the midst of you”. That implies an immediate presence. So who is making fallacious remakes about scripture here?
Also, I already pointed out that Jesus was declaring his Kingdom was not of this present world or flesh…indeed that was my entire point and rather totally undermining your own. So I’m not sure what you gain from pointing this out.

You go on to quote this verse:

.
John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence.

Which again, seems to support what I was saying, not you..as indeed, you began this whole thing by saying it was “ridiculous” to claim the kingdom was now as Christ was “plainly NOT here reigning over the wicked on earth”.
Please…tell me…how do you marry your expectation that he MUST be here to reign over this Kingdom, when this Kingdom he is speaking about, you yourself have shown is “not of this world or flesh”…??

Now…you may believe in your own mind that you were ‘rebuking me’ for ‘mishandling scripture’, but I’m afraid, dear man, that all you’ve done is dig a hole and jump in it. You laid a premise, then neatly refuted it all on your own. I really needn’t have entered the conversation at all, really.

 

[Curtis]

This is a fundamentally true statement…but is it what you were doing?
Let’s have a little look-see at what you were claiming.
You said:


I said no, clearly he is not, but he does not have to be here physically to be ruling over his kingdom, considering what this verse says:

Luke 17:20-21
Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”

You said:


Okay…firstly, in Luke 17:20-21 nothing is said about a “future” kingdom…indeed, Christ says the Kingdom is “in the midst of you”. That implies an immediate presence. So who is making fallacious remakes about scripture here?
Also, I already pointed out that Jesus was declaring his Kingdom was not of this present world or flesh…indeed that was my entire point and rather totally undermining your own. So I’m not sure what you gain from pointing this out.

You go on to quote this verse:



Which again, seems to support what I was saying, not you..as indeed, you began this whole thing by saying it was “ridiculous” to claim the kingdom was now as Christ was “plainly NOT here reigning over the wicked on earth”.
Please…tell me…how do you marry your expectation that he MUST be here to reign over this Kingdom, when this Kingdom he is speaking about, you yourself have shown is “not of this world or flesh”…??

Now…you may believe in your own mind that you were ‘rebuking me’ for ‘mishandling scripture’, but I’m afraid, dear man, that all you’ve done is dig a hole and jump in it. You laid a premise, then neatly refuted it all on your own. I really needn’t have entered the conversation at all, really.

Here’s the deal. Jesus comes to earth twice. The first time He came, the kingdom on earth was spiritual and not literal.

At His second coming He sets up His prophesied literal and physical eternal kingdom on earth.

In Our Lord’s Prayer, the line “Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven…”(Matt 6:10) is an explicit reference by Jesus Christ of the time yet future when a descendant of David will sit on David’s throne and rule Israel and the world from Jerusalem.


And Jesus said at the last supper:


Luk 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.


Note that the spiritual kingdom was already present when Jesus spoke of the future kingdom to come.


Christ’s future literal earthly and eternal kingdom was prophesied in both Old Testament and New Testament prophecies:


Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.


Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:


Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.


Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall beno end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.


Jeremiah 23:5-6 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, that I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; a King shall reign and prosper, and execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. In His days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell safely; now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS”


The New Testament and Old Testament unequivocally teach a literal and unending kingdom on the earth, with Jesus sitting and reigning on the throne of King David, in Jerusalem.

 

[Curtis]

Okay, here’s a thought. And I preface it with the warning that it IS just a thought, I’m not trying to claim it’s true or inspired by God, and I’m not hoping to stir a great deal of angst among folks who think I’m nuts…I could be, I’m just noodling through something…but I thought it was an interesting thought, and one that sort of hit me as I was reading my bible, so…

Matt 13 gives us the parable of the weeds, and the explanation of it:


Matthew 13:24-30
The Parable of the Weeds
[24] He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, [25] but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. [26] So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. [27] And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ [28] He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ [29] But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. [30] Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

Matthew 13:37-43
[37] He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. [38] The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, [39] and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. [40] Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. [41] The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, [42] and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [43] Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

While I acknowledge that this will be argued against by Dispensationalists, who would claim a two stage ‘return’ of Christ…which would put, in their mind, this ‘end of the age’ event at his last coming, I argue it doesn’t actually give us permission to insert or assume that. And yes, we could go elsewhere and continue the argument, but that is not my current goal. Here, in the text, we are told rather clearly that BOTH people groups are being allowed to ‘grow’ until the end of the age. At which point, the angels are sent out to gather…to reap the law-breakers and sinners, and throw them into the furnace. It’s then that the ‘righteous’ will inherit the Kingdom of their Father.
My interest, in specific, was caught when I was reading this passage:


1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
[16] For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [17] Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

This passage is, without a doubt, talking about the ‘Rapture’. The event where Christians are ‘caught up’…gathered to be with Christ. Regardless of how or when you understand this event, it’s clearly there. But…huh. The dead in Christ go first. And then we who are alive. WHO ARE LEFT. After reading the parable of the weeds, I’m suddenly wondering if Paul is being at all literal here. If the parable can be taken at all seriously, then we might be able to say that at that future time, living Christians will witness the ‘harvesting’, or ‘reaping’ of sinners from the face of the earth. And once that has happened, then they will be gathered to meet the Lord.
It could, even understanding what is happening, be quite a daunting prospect.
Of course, it all could happen within seconds of one another, who truly knows.
But, like I said, it was interesting to me.

It’s the same event, but the righteous dead are raptured first, followed immediately by the physically living Christians:

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

 

[Naomi25]

Here’s the deal. Jesus comes to earth twice. The first time He came, the kingdom on earth was spiritual and not literal.

At His second coming He sets up His prophesied literal and physical eternal kingdom on earth.

I understand this is what Premillennialist believe.
However, I do question whether a pre-understood doctrine has lead to eisegesis.
Because…I ask, where in scripture do we find explicit statements telling us that we must regard the Kingdom in separate phases: that it willl first come in spiritual format, and thus we may largely discount it, and that the second will be physical, after his return, but not eternal?

Do we not find the NT speaking of “THE” Kingdom of God (or heaven). Of Christ reigning currently over powers and authorities. Of the Kingdom not being one to come in a way we might perceive?
Do we not also see that what is spoken of again and again are two ages? ‘This age’…which is always speaking of things temporal and sinful, and ‘the age to come’, which is always things eternal. Do we not see that Christ is to reign in “this age, and also the age to come”.
Where do we find space for an intermediary age tucked in the middle?
Is it not just as likely to suppose that the OT passages speaking of a physical reign of Messiah is actually speaking of the eternal, physical reign of Christ upon the renewed earth? I would suggest that there is just as much biblical support for that as there is not.
Am I dogmatic in my insistence I must be correct in it? I don’t suppose I must be correct in anything…I am human and therefore fallible. But I must go where reasoning and my study of scripture leads me, and trust God will prod me elsewhere if I am wrong.

.
In Our Lord’s Prayer, the line “Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven…”(Matt 6:10) is an explicit reference by Jesus Christ of the time yet future when a descendant of David will sit on David’s throne and rule Israel and the world from Jerusalem.


And Jesus said at the last supper:


Luk 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.


Note that the spiritual kingdom was already present when Jesus spoke of the future kingdom to come.

Again…I would see these passages as clearly pointing to Christ’s eternal reign, rather than a 1000 years tucked inbetween the two ages. I simply see too many other passages in scripture that, when speaking of Christ’s return, will not allow for the conditions that are supposed to be within this supposed Millennium. The fact that sin and death will exist in it, for example, and people in their ‘nature bodies’, do not line up with many passages on Christ’s return.

Christ’s future literal earthly and eternal kingdom was prophesied in both Old Testament and New Testament prophecies:


Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.


Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:


Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

You don’t find it interesting that God’s promise to David was that his descendant would have a Kingdom without end?

2 Samuel 7:13
He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

Sounds like a throne established in eternity to me. Started spiritually, absolutely and without a doubt. Claimed and ruled over in the flesh in eternity…yep. And more likely, I’d say, than some odd, ‘for no real reason’ inbetween age that the bible doesn’t really speak of.

.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall beno end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.


Jeremiah 23:5-6 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, that I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; a King shall reign and prosper, and execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. In His days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell safely; now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS”


The New Testament and Old Testament unequivocally teach a literal and unending kingdom on the earth, with Jesus sitting and reigning on the throne of King David, in Jerusalem.

Yes. Literal, and unending. It’s the unending that gives the clue. Spiritual now, which we all know, because the bible is clear on it and no one wants to deny Christ is seated and reigning after his victory on the cross. And literal and physical after he returns. Only…in eternity. That way we harmonise what the OT says and what the NT says. Because I just can’t find a separate age in the NT…can you? I cannot push death and sin and natural bodies and people not being judged past Christ’s return. Or even the melting and renewing of the cosmos, either..can you? It seems to me that his literal and physical reign must occur in eternity, not a ‘millennium.’

 

[Naomi25]

It’s the same event, but the righteous dead are raptured first, followed immediately by the physically living Christians:

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

I expect it to be all close together, yes. But…Matt 13 makes it sound like the unrighteous will be taken to judgement before any of the righteous…living or dead. And that is the opposite of many a narrative you hear these days, especially from those in the Dispensational camp…
Leads you to wonder. As I did…

 

[Curtis]

I expect it to be all close together, yes. But…Matt 13 makes it sound like the unrighteous will be taken to judgement before any of the righteous…living or dead. And that is the opposite of many a narrative you hear these days, especially from those in the Dispensational camp…
Leads you to wonder. As I did…

What I meant is, the event in first Thessalonians 4, is that both the dead in Christ and the living Christians are caught up at the same time as part of the same event.

The gathering of the tares in Matthew 13 isn’t part of the 1 Thessalonians 4 rapture.

And it does say the tares are removed first, in Matthew 13.

 

[Earburner]

Okay, here’s a thought. And I preface it with the warning that it IS just a thought, I’m not trying to claim it’s true or inspired by God, and I’m not hoping to stir a great deal of angst among folks who think I’m nuts…I could be, I’m just noodling through something…but I thought it was an interesting thought, and one that sort of hit me as I was reading my bible, so…

Matt 13 gives us the parable of the weeds, and the explanation of it:


Matthew 13:24-30
The Parable of the Weeds
[24] He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, [25] but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. [26] So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. [27] And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ [28] He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ [29] But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. [30] Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

Matthew 13:37-43
[37] He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. [38] The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, [39] and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. [40] Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. [41] The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, [42] and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [43] Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

While I acknowledge that this will be argued against by Dispensationalists, who would claim a two stage ‘return’ of Christ…which would put, in their mind, this ‘end of the age’ event at his last coming, I argue it doesn’t actually give us permission to insert or assume that. And yes, we could go elsewhere and continue the argument, but that is not my current goal. Here, in the text, we are told rather clearly that BOTH people groups are being allowed to ‘grow’ until the end of the age. At which point, the angels are sent out to gather…to reap the law-breakers and sinners, and throw them into the furnace. It’s then that the ‘righteous’ will inherit the Kingdom of their Father.
My interest, in specific, was caught when I was reading this passage:


1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
[16] For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [17] Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

This passage is, without a doubt, talking about the ‘Rapture’. The event where Christians are ‘caught up’…gathered to be with Christ. Regardless of how or when you understand this event, it’s clearly there. But…huh. The dead in Christ go first. And then we who are alive. WHO ARE LEFT. After reading the parable of the weeds, I’m suddenly wondering if Paul is being at all literal here. If the parable can be taken at all seriously, then we might be able to say that at that future time, living Christians will witness the ‘harvesting’, or ‘reaping’ of sinners from the face of the earth. And once that has happened, then they will be gathered to meet the Lord.
It could, even understanding what is happening, be quite a daunting prospect.
Of course, it all could happen within seconds of one another, who truly knows.
But, like I said, it was interesting to me.

You have made a very good presentation of the quagmire that "church-ianity" is in, which of course is not the situation that Christianity is in, as is described by the Holy Spirit's deliverance of God's truth to us.
In KJV 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, I suggest to all, that we should pay particular attention to the word "when", and how it is used in reference, meaning that it is a simultanious event:

[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
[10] When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

To back that up, the words of Christ says this: KJV Luke 17[29] But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

"There can always be more than one lie, but there can never be more than one truth"- Earburner

 

[Taken]

My point being: there is enough biblical evidence to warrant caution in assuming that a number that is almost certainly symbolic, must press our reading of scripture into it.

Disagree.
Men living 1,000 years is literal, less the TRUTH who is Jesus Lied? God forbid.

 

[Taken]

What I meant is, the event in first Thessalonians 4, is that both the dead in Christ and the living Christians are caught up at the same time as part of the same event.

“That both the dead “IN CHRIST” and the living Christians remaining “IN CHRIST” are caught up....”

 

[Taken]

The Ones Who Are Left…
OP ^

All of mankind is Judged and Sentenced.
The very first Sentence Revealed is;
All of mankind’s natural BODY’S...SHALL DIE.

Gods Record Books ARE the Official Records of EVIDENCE that applies to All of mankind’s Body’s.

JudgeMENTS OF the Creator, occur regularly throughout a mankind of thing’s Bodily Life..
* span of life, time of death
* knowledge given, understanding withheld
* blessings given, blessings withheld
* gifts given, gifts withheld
* rewards given, rewards withheld
* with God given, with God withheld

God IS JUST;
All natural men whose Freewill election IS to BE with God or IS to BE without God SHALL BE EFFECTED BY the Power of God.
*Every man SHALL Have their own Freewill Election BE Fulfilled.

 

[JohnPaul]

My eyes are blind but I can see the nonbelievers praying on their knees.

 

[Earburner]

Disagree.
Men living 1,000 years is literal, less the TRUTH who is Jesus Lied? God forbid.

Disagree!
In your understanding, being before Noah's time, yes. But now the limitation by God is 120 years. The words of "a thousand years is perfectly described for it's meaning and its purpose, as being an undisclosed long length of time for the Age of God's Grace through His Son, that we all may come to repentance towards God.
KJV- 2 Peter 3[7] But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
[8] But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord AS a thousand years, and a thousand years AS one day.
[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise [of salvation], as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
[10] But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

 

[Taken]

Disagree!
In your understanding, being before Noah's time, yes. But now the limitation by God is 120 years. The words of "a thousand years is perfectly described for it's meaning and its purpose, as being an undisclosed long length of time for the Age of God's Grace through His Son, that we all may come to repentance towards God.
KJV- 2 Peter 3[7] But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
[8] But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord AS a thousand years, and a thousand years AS one day.
[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise [of salvation], as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
[10] But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Come on....NOT individual mortal men living a thousand years!
Jesus Present, Saints Presence, Mortal Men Presence, (generationally living, dying) occupy the earth for a literal thousand years. (Void of Satan’s presence)