The faithful and the saints: Bringing Calvinism and Arminianism together.

[stunnedbygrace]

The body is dead because sin . . . Romans 8, I forget which verse, maybe 12 or so.

Much love!

Hmm…I guess I can see how you arrived at that with that translation.
My translation makes it easier for me to understand.

New Living Translation
And Christ lives within you, so even though your body will die because of sin, the Spirit gives you life because you have been made right with God.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yes.

I want a second serving of bread pudding. But I know it's not good for me, so I choose not to.

I crave a drink of alcohol, but I choose not to drink.

My mind is filled with horrible thoughts, but I choose to focus on the Word of God, holding onto that like a lifeline.

I feel irritation, impatience, and start to post accordingly, but choose to delete that post, and to write something I believe is loving.

Renewing the mind is when we begin to think the second thing first.

I don't want a second piece, I'm happy with one. I don't want to ingest something that's going to take control of me. I am patient and gentle, and write accordingly.

Like that.

Much love!

The kingdom of God is not about food and drink or about how many cookies you eat. The kingdom of God is within.

I have a very different idea of what “the flesh” is and how to be freed from it. Although you did mention impatience and I do consider that part of my flesh.

Most of what you describe, to me, apart from the food stuff, is just having good manners, which is taught by family and schools.

 

[Naomi25]

Classically, the theologians differentiate between forensic righteousness (God’s judgment of us, concurrent with declaring us His people), and how well we meet our relational obligations at any point during the growing-up process which is classically called sanctification. It is this latter righteousness that sister Stunned by Grace longs for, if I understood correctly.

I do understand the distinction between justification and sanctification. Both are essential understandings but fundamentally different.
I confess I missed the first part of the conversation stunned by grace had, but was a little surprised by her summarisation of grace and mercy. Of course…it could be that she was speaking about something else entirely…but it did seem that at least Enoch was speaking of imputed righteousness.
I suppose sometimes we don’t really know what anyone might be trying to express until we try and shake it out a bit…

 

[stunnedbygrace]

He says once we were no people; now we are God’s people. He says we are no longer slaves, but daughters and sons.

Are you willing and able to accept this as part of your sel-identity?

Yes, I can accept that. I cannot accept being told I’m holy. Until recently, I couldn’t accept being told I was righteous, let alone holy.

 

[Lambano]

How is being God’s people, God’s beloved daughter, not being separated out to God?

(Hey, you once asked me what I thought the definition of “holiness” was. This doesn’t sound too scary, does it?)

 

[marks]

With respect, I do not think this is how scripture portrays it, or how reality shows it.

Romans 7:15-25
For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

We each of us struggle with sin, ‘in our flesh’…in thought and deed. We do what we don’t want to do and don’t do what we want to do (or know we should).
The stark difference between one who has been justified by Christ and one who has not, is that they ‘delight in the law of God’…they both seek to do what is right, and know what is right. They work on sanctification rather than give themselves over to the sin.
If….we became truly sin free people…even in only a spiritual sense, when we become redeemed by Christ, then in a very big way, we cease to need him or the Holy Spirit. The bible refutes that idea, leading us to know that we need them both in our everyday walks in both intercession and growing holiness and repentance. If we were spiritually clean and were only waiting patiently for the ‘perfecting’ of our bodies at his return, so much of the NT epistles would become meaningless.

The inner man serves God, the outer man serves sin. And we will spend the rest of our lives working with the Holy Spirit in learning how, and being trained to be proficient in consistenly walking in the Spirit, instead of allowing the works of the flesh.

We struggle with sin because we live in corrupt flesh - bodies corrupted by sin, with brains corrupted by sin.

It's like we've been born again into a new family, and while we are truly part of that new family, a righteous family, yet we're so used to the old ways, it takes time to retrain.

I agree with you about our life experience. And the reason why we no longer what our old lives is because we've been remade into new people.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

How is being God’s people, God’s beloved daughter, not being separated out to God?

(Hey, you once asked me what I thought the definition of “holiness” was. This doesn’t sound too scary, does it?)

I don’t know. I can’t see it that way. Like…just blankness.
So when it says God is holy, this means God is separated out to God. I don’t…nope.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The inner man serves God, the outer man serves sin.

I just don’t get your definition of flesh…
I also don’t get how, if you sometimes have impatience and fire off an angry post, that is your inner man serving God.

 

[Lambano]

I don’t know. I can’t see it that way. Like…just blankness.
So when it says God is holy, this means God is separated out to God. I don’t…nope.

God is separate from His Creation, at least until the New Heavens and New Earth. Does that help understand God’s holiness? Your new identity in a way separates you from what you were. You are still in the World, but no longer of the World, to borrow a phrase from John.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

God is separate from His Creation, at least for now. Does that help understand God’s holiness? Your new identity in a way separates you from what you were. You are still in the World, but no longer of the world.

Mmm…no, doesn’t help. I think no one understands what holy means and they think I don’t understand what it means. I think they somewhat seem to grasp what “holy to” God means…maybe…no, maybe not. But there is NO sin in holiness. None. Only God is holy. As my friend says, there is NO SIN in GODS holiness. Not even a single spot.

 

[marks]

Hmm…I guess I can see how you arrived at that with that translation.
My translation makes it easier for me to understand.

New Living Translation
And Christ lives within you, so even though your body will die because of sin, the Spirit gives you life because you have been made right with God.

That's not what the verse says.



Much love!

 

[Lambano]

Mmm…no, doesn’t help. I think no one understands what holy means and they think I don’t understand what it means. I think they somewhat seem to grasp what “holy to” God means. But there is NO sin in holiness. None. Only God is holy. As my friend says, there is NO SIN in holiness. Not even a single spot.

Hey, who sez you have sin?

Who will bring charges against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;
who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, but rather, was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

Whatever real righteousness lapses you may have, they are not counted against you. But maybe they’ll keep you humble.

 

[marks]

So when it says God is holy, this means God is separated out to God. I don’t…nope.

It's what the word means.

When we say God is holy, we are saying He never deviates from Who He is. He remains always true to Himself. And that is the beauty of holiness, Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Mmm…no, doesn’t help. I think no one understands what holy means and they think I don’t understand what it means. I think they somewhat seem to grasp what “holy to” God means…maybe…no, maybe not. But there is NO sin in holiness. None. Only God is holy. As my friend says, there is NO SIN in holiness. Not even a single spot.

Your friend may not understand holiness.

Have you had a chance to see my post about "sanctify" and "holy" and "saint" all coming from the same word?

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

That's not what the verse says.

View attachment 19471

Much love!

Mmm…no, I don’t think so. I mean, I don’t think you see it as I do, even with a direct translation from Greek. I think it means more…condemned, as good as dead, may as well call it dead already, death is the fate for this human body, reckon it as dead because it soon will be. Because my body isn’t yet dead and I can’t pretend it is.

 

[marks]

Hey, who sez you have sin?

Who will bring charges against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;
who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, but rather, was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

If you identify with your flesh, the old man, the one born from Adam, this will be confusion.

Much love!

 

[marks]

as good as dead,

I suggest just reading it for what it says.

Not, as good as dead, but, dead. And the spirit is not "as good as life", but is actual life. Actual life, actual death.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Because my body isn’t yet dead and I can’t pretend it is.

Perhaps by your definition of death, but not the way the Bible uses death.

We were dead in transgression and sin.

This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, Whom you have sent.

Much love!

 

[marks]

reckon it as dead because it soon will be.

By the same token . . . reckon yourself dead to sin and alive to God . . . but not really?

Much love!

 

[marks]

I just don’t get your definition of flesh…
I also don’t get how, if you sometimes have impatience and fire off an angry post, that is your inner man serving God.

My definition of flesh is the flesh, sarx. The body, soma, the same things are said. This body born from Adam is irreparably damaged by sin. The person born was born dead in sin, no connection to God, the giver of life. Just another animal going about his business.

The spirit posts in love, but if the spirit does not overcome the fleshy tendencies remaining in the body, that angry post may show up. My job is to detect and delete, and better yet, to only post in love. Which is why I always give myself the reminder, as well as blessing for others,

Much love!