The faithful and the saints: Bringing Calvinism and Arminianism together.

[marks]

Classically, the theologians differentiate between forensic righteousness (God’s judgment of us, concurrent with declaring us His people), and how well we meet our relational obligations at any point during the growing-up process which is classically called sanctification. It is this latter righteousness that sister Stunned by Grace longs for, if I understood correctly.

I've heard this described as "imputed righteousness", where God declares us righteous, and imparted righteousness, where God makes us righteous.


Much love!

 

[Lambano]

I’m not quite sure why it is so important to you to try to get me to believe or admit I’m holy just because I read a letter or a verse regarding holiness. You just keep being holy and I will just keep learning righteousness and practicing the obedience of trust.

One more thought on holiness: I don’t know if we’ve talked specifically about the holiness of Election. I understand this more in the Jewish sense: When we joined ourselves to Christ in faith, we became part of God’s people. You and I belong to God, period, exclamation point. That comes with additional relational or “righteousness” obligations, of course, but it is not the same as righteousness. And that must not be seen by our flesh as an opportunity for Pride, which is a problem I’ve seen in real people. But that is where your holiness is. Can you accept this?

Can you incorporate this into your self-identity?

 

[Lambano]

I've heard this described as "imputed righteousness", where God declares us righteous, and imparted righteousness, where God makes us righteous.


Much love!

Ah. Then “imparted” is part of a directed growing-up process, as opposed to a one-off deal?

 

[Lambano]

Ah…I think I might have just glimpsed how your mind sees it…uh…nope, it’s gone.

Slippery little thing, isn’t it?

 

[marks]

Ah. Then “imparted” is part of a directed growing-up process?

I see three places to speak of righteousness in our lives in this world.

One is in the forgiveness of sins. We were born from Adam in corrupt flesh, flesh born from flesh, condemned in sin. Having died with Christ, judicial righteousness is established in our lives. Our sin required our death, and we've died.

Two is in a new creation. We are born from God, spirit born from Spirit. That which is born of God sins not. Put on the new man, which is created patterned after God, in righteousness and true holiness.

Three is in our overcoming the flesh, the renewing of the mind, which is the process of learning to live like the new creation we've been born into, and to stop continuing in the fleshy ways like we've lived in up until that time. To replace unrighteous thought and action with righteous thought and action.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

We were talking about whether I say righteousness and holiness were the same, and I do not say that.

Much love!

Hmm…okay. But…you do think you are righteous and holy?

 

[marks]

Slippery little thing, isn’t it?

It is to me!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

One is in the forgiveness of sins. We were born from Adam in corrupt flesh, flesh born from flesh, condemned in sin. Having died with Christ, judicial righteousness is established in our lives. Our sin required our death, and we've died.

why do you have to die again, physically?

 

[marks]

Hmm…okay. But…you do think you are righteous and holy?

It doesn't matter what I think, but what I think is this. That I've been born from God, and I am what He says I am. And I'm in the process of my mind being renewed in order to transform me into the image of Christ. Do I engage in works of the flesh? Yes I do. Do I desire for righteousness? Yes I do. Do I believe Christ sanctifies me? Yes I do.

What does God say I am? A new creature, all new, all from Him. Created patterned after Him, in righteousness and true holiness. That's not what I say. That's what God says. Assuming I'm actually reborn.

Much love!

 

[Lambano]

I see three places to speak of righteousness in our lives in this world.

One is in the forgiveness of sins. We were born from Adam in corrupt flesh, flesh born from flesh, condemned in sin. Having died with Christ, judicial righteousness is established in our lives. Our sin required our death, and we've died.

Two is in a new creation. We are born from God, spirit born from Spirit. That which is born of God sins not. Put on the new man, which is created patterned after God, in righteousness and true holiness.

Three is in our overcoming the flesh, the renewing of the mind, which is the process of learning to live like the new creation we've been born into, and to stop continuing in the fleshy ways like we've lived in up until that time. To replace unrighteous thought and action with righteous thought and action.

Much love!

What is done by the Holy Spirit, and what requires our willful cooperation? That may not be answerable.

 

[marks]

why do you have to die again, physically?

The body wears out. The point is this. We can survive death if we share in Christ's death.

Much love!

 

[marks]

What is done by the Holy Spirit, and what requires our willful cooperation? That may not be answerable.

What requires our cooperation is for this process to happen more quickly. God promises to chasten, which means to train as you train a child, those who need it. So if you lag too much, He's going to give you that kick in the pants to get you moving again.

We're repented, so we've already made the choice to allow God to work His will with us. Now the only protestations come from our flesh. Our spirit delights to do God's will. The flesh remains God's enemy.

The more we consciously choose to deny our flesh, the more used to living that way we become, and the more we live denying the lusts of the flesh.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It doesn't matter what I think, but what I think is this. That I've been born from God, and I am what He says I am. And I'm in the process of my mind being renewed in order to transform me into the image of Christ. Do I engage in works of the flesh? Yes I do. Do I desire for righteousness? Yes I do. Do I believe Christ sanctifies me? Yes I do.

I think it matters what you think. Your thoughts are based on scripture and how you see it.
Okay, you are what He says you are. Does He say you’re holy?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The body wears out. The point is this. We can survive death if we share in Christ's death.

Much love!

Hmm…didn’t I read the body must die, because of sin? I’m certain I read that…

 

[Lambano]

I think it matters what you think. Your thoughts are based on scripture and how you see it.
Okay, you are what He says you are. Does He say you’re holy?

He says once we were no people; now we are God’s people. He says we are no longer slaves, but daughters and sons.

Are you willing and able to accept this as part of your sel-identity?

 

[marks]

I think it matters what you think. Your thoughts are based on scripture and how you see it.
Okay, you are what He says you are. Does He say you’re holy?

This word, holy, do you understand that sanctify, sanctified, sacred, holy, saints, these are all talking about the same thing, right? From "hagios"?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Hmm…didn’t I read the body must die, because of sin? I’m certain I read that…

The body is dead because sin . . . Romans 8, I forget which verse, maybe 12 or so.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The more we consciously choose to deny our flesh, the more used to living that way we become, and the more we live denying the lusts of the flesh.

I have a question about this part.
Can you give some examples of what choosing to deny our flesh looks like?

 

[Naomi25]

Yes, we are reborn without the corruption of sin. We are no longer the man who sinned and is condemned. We are a new person who is a spirit child of God.

However, we live in corrupt flesh, and it's like driving a car with 2 flat tires and a broken axel with a 4 cylinder engine that's missing on two cylinders.

In time we get better at driving it, and we can get some repairs made, to make it easier to drive. Renewing the mind.

Romans 6:9-12 KJV
9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Dead indeed to sin - new properties of being.

Much love!

With respect, I do not think this is how scripture portrays it, or how reality shows it.

Romans 7:15-25
For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

We each of us struggle with sin, ‘in our flesh’…in thought and deed. We do what we don’t want to do and don’t do what we want to do (or know we should).
The stark difference between one who has been justified by Christ and one who has not, is that they ‘delight in the law of God’…they both seek to do what is right, and know what is right. They work on sanctification rather than give themselves over to the sin.
If….we became truly sin free people…even in only a spiritual sense, when we become redeemed by Christ, then in a very big way, we cease to need him or the Holy Spirit. The bible refutes that idea, leading us to know that we need them both in our everyday walks in both intercession and growing holiness and repentance. If we were spiritually clean and were only waiting patiently for the ‘perfecting’ of our bodies at his return, so much of the NT epistles would become meaningless.

 

[marks]

I have a question about this part.
Can you give some examples of what choosing to deny our flesh looks like?

Yes.

I want a second serving of bread pudding. But I know it's not good for me, so I choose not to.

I crave a drink of alcohol, but I choose not to drink.

My mind is filled with horrible thoughts, but I choose to focus on the Word of God, holding onto that like a lifeline.

I feel irritation, impatience, and start to post accordingly, but choose to delete that post, and to write something I believe is loving.

Renewing the mind is when we begin to think the second thing first.

I don't want a second piece, I'm happy with one. I don't want to ingest something that's going to take control of me. I am patient and gentle, and write accordingly.

Like that.

Much love!