The faithful and the saints: Bringing Calvinism and Arminianism together.

[marks]

That’s right handy…if a man doesn’t understand what I wrote, the static is, of course, on his end of the line.
I’ll remember that one!

I think if you understood the meaning of Romans 6, you would understand what @Enoch111 was saying, even if you disagreed. Not understanding his comment signals a lack of understanding of that chapter, not to mention others. But that one is good to focus on.

Much love!

 

[David H.]

@David H. frequently posts threads about two castes of Christians.

It is antithetical to the family of God, is unsupported, and easily refuted.

I Asked @marks on the first page of this post:

"Show me the scripture that supports all believers are saints. This is not about two "classes" of Christians, But of God's sovereign election of who he wishes to use as a saint."

He has yet to answer this question.

The fact is scripture is ambiguous about this distinction EITHER way, and it take the Holy Spirit to discern the Truth. We know the fruit of saying all believers are saints is that there is a great Schism in the church between the Calvinist and the Arminian. For me this is reason enough to consider that saints and faithful are two distinct groups in the church.

A saint is someone who gives their testimony(martyria) of the saving work of the cross in their lives. NOT everyone is chosen for this and in fact many believers live their life and die of normal old age having never been chosen by God to be a testimony other than in their daily lives as being and living exemplary Christian lives, but they are not taken to court for their faith, persecuted, or even suffer martyrdom for faith.

We here in the west have lived this way for the past few centuries as the liberties offered by modern republics afford this. The result is the denominationalism we have here and now in the largely saintless churches of the west. It is this failure to distinguish that has led to this fruitless denominationalism, with all the separate parts of the body congregating with similar parts of the body in separate churches around a a teaching of men (Lutheranism, Calvinism, Wesleyanism, Mennonite, etc.) Or a doctrine (Baptist, Nazerine, Charismatic, etc) Instead of being of one accord as the early church was without the confusion of denominationalism as the early church was and is indicative of the church of the saints.

 

[Lambano]

Let’s try it this way…a man who is born blind and deaf cannot see or hear, no matter how badly he may want to. Someone has to heal his blindness or he will never see. I was one of those men born blind and deaf. I could not see that God even existed. Then He healed my blindness and I could suddenly see He did exist. Once I saw, I began to trust Him and the things I read that He said. I will not take credit of myself that I trust Him, no matter what gender trust is in, because if I hadn’t seen, I would never have trusted. My trust was not of myself, it was the result of being able to suddenly see.
Maybe it will work that way?

Does God take away all men’s blindness? Or are some condemned to eternal darkness because God won’t heal them?

Who sinned that this man was born blind? (Remember, he’s listening in on this conversation.)

Is it cruel that a man know that healing is available to some, but Father withholds the medicine a child needs?

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

I Asked @marks on the first page of this post:

"Show me the scripture that supports all believers are saints. This is not about two "classes" of Christians, But of God's sovereign election of who he wishes to use as a saint."

He has yet to answer this question.

The fact is scripture is ambiguous about this distinction EITHER way, and it take the Holy Spirit to discern the Truth. We know the fruit of saying all believers are saints is that there is a great Schism in the church between the Calvinist and the Arminian. For me this is reason enough to consider that saints and faithful are two distinct groups in the church.

A saint is someone who gives their testimony(martyria) of the saving work of the cross in their lives. NOT everyone is chosen for this and in fact many believers live their life and die of normal old age having never been chosen by God to be a testimony other than in their daily lives as being and living exemplary Christian lives, but they are not taken to court for their faith, persecuted, or even suffer martyrdom for faith.

We here in the west have lived this way for the past few centuries as the liberties offered by modern republics afford this. The result is the denominationalism we have here and now in the largely saintless churches of the west. It is this failure to distinguish that has led to this fruitless denominationalism, with all the separate parts of the body congregating with similar parts of the body in separate churches around a a teaching of men (Lutheranism, Calvinism, Wesleyanism, Mennonite, etc.) Or a doctrine (Baptist, Nazerine, Charismatic, etc) Instead of being of one accord as the early church was without the confusion of denominationalism as the early church was and is indicative of the church of the saints.

What are Christian saints according to the Bible? | GotQuestions.org

 

[marks]

What are Christian saints according to the Bible? | GotQuestions.org

Therefore, scripturally speaking, the “saints” are the body of Christ, Christians, the church. All Christians are considered saints. All Christians are saints—and at the same time are called to be saints. First Corinthians 1:2 states it clearly: “To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy…” The words “sanctified” and “holy” come from the same Greek root as the word that is commonly translated “saints.” Christians are saints by virtue of their connection with Jesus Christ. Christians are called to be saints, to increasingly allow their daily life to more closely match their position in Christ. This is the biblical description and calling of the saints.

from your link.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Does God take away all men’s blindness? Or are some condemned to eternal darkness because God won’t heal them?

Who sinned that this man was born blind? (Remember, he’s listening in on this conversation.)

Is it cruel that a man know that healing is available to some, but Father withholds the medicine a child needs?

I don’t know if He takes away all men’s blindness. But I know little is asked of whoever little is given to. Maybe to follow the law written in his heart will be enough for a man whose sight is not given to him.
As for the outer darkness, I don’t think unbelievers go there. And I’m still hoping against hope that it only lasts for the millennium.

Don’t understand your second paragraph, what you’re trying to say by the verse.

I was a blind man. I never thought or knew Gods healing was available to some but not me. I didn’t even know He existed. But now I do, and He is definitely not cruel.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It's in the Greek grammar. Pronouns must always agree in gender with their antecedants. Saved is neuter gender, faith is feminine, and grace is feminine. "And that not of ourselves", that is neuter, so it can encompass both saved and faith and grace, or saved alone, but not faith and/or grace by themselves, that would require a feminine pronoun.

Much love!

Ah, very good! So, it applies to the trust as well, just as I believe. Because believe me, Gods kindness didn’t come from within me and neither did my trust. And neither has the growing of my trust.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Sight and faith are different. Someone can see the truth about God, but not trust Him.

Much love!

Of course they can, I agree. I see it every day, sometimes in myself.
But men, in general, have been taught to trust God that they will be raised and given a new body and then they are sent on their way to worry about the things they were told not to worry about. They are even told the strangest things like…see that your hearts do not become evil and untrusting is an impossibility for them!

So they trust they will live forever but don’t trust about money, shelter, food, etc. So I question if that is trusting God, of course. Trust for the big thing but not trust for smaller things He said? Surely it would be harder to raise the dead and make a new body for someone than to provide support temporally…

 

[stunnedbygrace]

How will it ever be possible to catch up with all these posts!

 

[marks]

Romans 1:7 KJV
7) To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul's letter to the Roman Christians is addressed to the saints. "To be" is added, and is quesionable, and "called saints" is a correct literal tranlation.

In Paul's letter to the saints at Rome, the faithful are not addressed. Are these things in Romans true for some Christians, and not true for others?

But let's look a little deeper . . . not much, just a little.

Romans 6:11-14 KJV
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Romans 12:1-2 KJV
1) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2) And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

How is it you consider these passages addressed to the saints? And not to all Christians? Calling some Christians as though they are not saints is to exclude them from all the Scripture tells us about our salvation.

A saint is someone who gives their testimony

Rather, a saint is someone set apart by God. That's the meaning of the word. Martyr is someone who gives their testimony.

1 Corinthians 1:1-2 KJV
1) Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2) Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

All the corrections and admonitions of this letter are addressed to the saints. They are not a select group of Christians. They are all true Christians.

"To them that are sanctified", this is perfect tense passive voice. And these are being corrected and admonished.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Of course they can, I agree. I see it every day, sometimes in myself.
But men, in general, have been taught to trust God that they will be raised and given a new body and then they are sent on their way to worry about the things they were told not to worry about. They are even told the strangest things like…see that your hearts do not become evil and untrusting is an impossibility for them!

So they trust they will live forever but don’t trust about money, shelter, food, etc. So I question if that is trusting God, of course.

I don't know about what men in general have been taught, I live in a very small corner of the world.

But I can speak of what the Bible teaches.

Much love!

 

[marks]

How will it ever be possible to catch up with all these posts!

Whatever pace is comfortable!

Much love!

 

[Lambano]

Don’t understand your second paragraph, what you’re trying to say by the verse.

Brother Lifelong Sinner and I have had some conversations about “seeing” and “trusting”. See his thread, “How do you see Jesus?” Brother MarkS’s comment about those who see but can’t trust may be insightful.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Brother Lifelong Sinner and I have had some conversations about “seeing” and “trusting”. See his thread, “How do you see Jesus?” Brother MarkS’s comment about those who see but can’t trust may be insightful.

Oh, I see. I might look that thread up.

marks comment about see and trust was VERY insightful. I commented on it.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I don't know about what men in general have been taught, I live in a very small corner of the world.

But I can speak of what the Bible teaches.

Much love!

You mean you haven’t been able to see by the threads here what men, in general, have been taught and indoctrinated into?

 

[marks]

But men, in general, have been taught to trust God that they will be raised and given a new body and then they are sent on their way to worry about the things they were told not to worry about.

They need to be taught to trust that God has made them new, to live a new life now.

You don't spend what you don't think you have. You can be the richest man in the world, but live like a pauper if you don't know it.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You mean you haven’t been able to see by the threads here what men, in general, have been taught and indoctrinated into?

I'm sorry, what I mean is I don't respond to generalities that presuppose a certain doctrine or mentality being pervasive over the majority. I find such lines of discussion unfruitful. I prefer to keep to the specifics of what you and I think, and what we believe the Bible is saying. Otherwise we find ourselves speaking for others.

And who is indoctrinated into what, I think that's what we've been talking about. We are following the true teachings of the Bible, or something else. And where that something else may come from, that's not so important to me, as just recognizing what is true, and holding to that.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

How is it you consider these passages addressed to the saints? And not to all Christians? Calling some Christians as though they are not saints is to exclude them from all the Scripture tells us about our salvation.

I don’t know what on earth you’re saying! Are you asking me if I exclude men from scriptures because I see a difference between the righteousness a man is sometimes capable of, the righteousness that comes to a man by trust, and holiness?

You should go on thinking you are holy if you really think it, but you’re not going to wiggle me into thinking I am holy. Not even if you try to convince me that my insistence that I am not holy excludes other men from holiness.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

They need to be taught to trust that God has made them new, to live a new life now.

If you mean by that that they only need to start believing that they are always righteous and completely holy because they already are but just don’t believe it, any man who has hungered for true righteousness in his inner man, (for ANY length of time), simply won’t believe it.

 

[marks]

I don’t know what on earth you’re saying! Are you asking me if I exclude men from scriptures because I see a difference between the righteousness a man is sometimes capable of, the righteousness that comes to a man by trust, and holiness?

Actually I do know what I'm saying. My question was this:

Are these things in Romans true for some Christians, and not true for others?

This was also my question:

How is it you consider these passages addressed to the saints? And not to all Christians?

To be more succinct . . .

By what basis do you parse sections of Scripture as addressed to saints and not faithful, or faithful and not saints? Which portions do you parse in that way? Where is there ANY evidence that these are separate groups?

Much love!