Secure Eternal Salvation

[Ferris Bueller]

well, the Bible apparently disagrees? Does seem to be...a pretty nuanced thing though

near as i can figure, religiously speaking they are pretty equal, but practically speaking i have been (rather painfully) shown the difference, when i went looking. Anyway they do appear to share a synonym regardless, yes, but ill suggest that they are Scripturally different for an important reason, that most people never even attempt to discover i guess.

But have we completely conflated them now? ya, pretty much. Worth seeking out the five different kinds of belief though, and contrasting them with pistis. Id love to make some examples here, but they are not well received, ive tried; comes across as denigrating others' "faith" i guess

I've never heard your five faith teaching.
All I know is the word 'believe' in James 2:19 and Romans 4:5 are the same Greek word. Believing means believing. In context, the object of what is being believed may vary, but believing means believing. And I think that's where your contention is stemming from, right?

 

[amadeus]

ha tbh ive been in about five threads on that and im still not sure lol

I have seen such threads, but I have never really seen a clear difference in the scriptures between faith and belief. I have seen people divide them in their posts here.

Perhaps a person who 'believes' there is such a difference will respond here and explain the difference hopefully using the scriptures.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I already showed you the truth about this in the plain words of the Bible. Either you get it or you don’t.
The Catholic Church is not the body of Jesus Christ. That’s a joke.
Christ does not inhabit an organization. He inhabits individual believers spread out over the whole earth. The Spirit within each of us makes us one.

The Bible doesn't support YOUR perversion of what the Church is.

It is not a loose gaggle of dispersed "believers".
Tt is ONE, unified, visible body (John 17:20-23, Matt.514) who ALL believe and practice in like mind, spirit and doctrine (Eph. 4:5) and NO Protestant splinter group fits that bill.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The Prodigal son represents Israelites as a whole, not the same person who once believed but now doesn’t believe who Christ saves again. The Jews who Christ retrieves are not the generations of Jews who fell away and are no longer alive. They are Jews living in the lostness they inherited from those who did fall away.

And again, you show that you have a shallow and myopic understanding of the Gospel.

The Parable of the Prodigal Son is polyvalent in its meaning. In other words – it is far broader than your narrow interpretation because of your continued refusal to read the entire CONTEXT of the verses.

Jesus told this parable in Luke 15 in response to the objection of the Pharisees that He was spending time with tax collectors and “sinners”. This parable is NOT only about Israel as a whole – but about the INDIVIDUAL child of God who rejects Him, then returns. It’s about Go’s infinite mercy on the penitent man.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I've never heard your five faith teaching.
All I know is the word 'believe' in James 2:19 and Romans 4:5 are the same Greek word. Believing means believing. In context, the object of what is being believed may vary, but believing means believing. And I think that's where your contention is stemming from, right?

This is absolutely FALSE - and you have been shown this on numerous occasions.

The NT was written in Koine Greek - no English.
"Believing"(pist-yoo'-o/verb, James 2:19) is NOT always the same as "Believing"(pist-yoo'-o/verb, Acts 16:31).

 

[bbyrd009]

I've never heard your five faith teaching.
All I know is the word 'believe' in James 2:19 and Romans 4:5 are the same Greek word. Believing means believing. In context, the object of what is being believed may vary, but believing means believing. And I think that's where your contention is stemming from, right?

so, those are both pistis, but there are five other roots for "believe," and i would say that "believing means believing" to us, sure, but for instance Abraham did not "have faith" in Yah initially, and did you "have faith" in santa claus or the tooth fairy?

I think it is a crime to xlate pistis as "believe" myself, mostly bc "beliefs" are subject to change, supposedly, whereas imo faith is not

 

[Illuminator]

I have seen such threads, but I have never really seen a clear difference in the scriptures between faith and belief. I have seen people divide them in their posts here.

Perhaps a person who 'believes' there is such a difference will respond here and explain the difference hopefully using the scriptures.

Many Protestants today realize that Catholics adhere to the idea of salvation sola gratia (by grace alone), but fewer are aware that Catholics do not have to condemn the formula of justification sola fide (by faith alone), provided this phrase is properly understood.

The term pistis is used in the Bible in a number of different senses, ranging from intellectual belief (Romans 14:22, 23, James 2:19), to assurance (Acts 17:31), and even to trustworthiness or reliability (Romans 3:3, Titus 2:10). Of key importance is Galatians 5:6, which refers to “faith working by charity.” In Catholic theology, this is what is known as fides formata or “faith formed by charity.” The alternative to formed faith is fides informis or “faith unformed by charity.” This is the kind of faith described in James 2:19, for example.

Whether a Catholic rejects the idea of justification by faith alone depends on what sense the term “faith” is being used in. If it is being used to refer to unformed faith then a Catholic rejects the idea of justification by faith alone (which is the point James is making in James 2:19, as every non-antinomian Evangelical agrees; one is not justified by intellectual belief alone).

However, if the term “faith” is being used to refer to faith formed by charity then the Catholic does not have to condemn the idea of justification by faith alone. In fact, in traditional works of Catholic theology, one regularly encounters the statement that formed faith is justifying faith. If one has formed faith, one is justified. Period.

A Catholic would thus reject the idea of justification sola fide informi but wholeheartedly embrace the idea of justification sola fide formata. Adding the word “formed” to clarify the nature of the faith in “sola fide” renders the doctrine completely acceptable to a Catholic...

...This leads me to why Catholics do not use the formula “faith alone.” Given the different usages of the term “faith” in the Bible, the early Church had to decide which meaning would be treated as normative. Would it be the Galatians 5 sense or the Romans 14/James 2 sense? The Church opted for the latter for several reasons:

First, the Romans 14 sense of the term pistis is frankly the more common in the New Testament. It is much harder to think of passages which demand that pistis mean “faith formed by charity” than it is to think of passages which demand that pistis mean “intellectual belief.” In fact, even in Galatians 5:6 itself, Paul has to specify that it is faith formed by charity that he is talking about, suggesting that this is not the normal use of the term in his day.

Second, the New Testament regularly (forty-two times in the KJV) speaks of “the faith,” meaning a body of theological beliefs (e.g. Jude 3). The connection between pistis and intellectual belief is clearly very strong in this usage.

Third, Catholic theology has focused on the triad of faith, hope, and charity, which Paul lays great stress on and which is found throughout his writings, not just in 1 Corinthians 13:13 (though that is the locus classicus for it), including places where it is not obvious because of the English translation or the division of verses. If in this triad “faith” is taken to mean “formed faith” then hope and charity are collapsed into faith and the triad is flattened. To preserve the distinctiveness of each member of the triad, the Church chose to use the term “faith” in a way that did not include within it the ideas of hope (trust) and charity (love). Only by doing this could the members of the triad be kept from collapsing into one another.

Thus the Catholic Church normally expresses the core essences of these virtues like this:

Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us . . . because he is truth itself. (CCC 1814)

Hope is the theological virtue by which we desire the kingdom of heaven and eternal life as our happiness, placing our trust in Christ’s promises and relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit. (CCC 1817)

Charity is the theological virtue by which we love God above all things for his own sake, and our neighbor as ourselves for the love of God. (CCC 1822)

In common Catholic usage, faith is thus unconditional belief in what God says, hope is unconditional trust in God, and charity is unconditional love for God. When we are justified, God places all three of these virtues in our hearts. These virtues are given to each of the justified, even though our outward actions do not always reflect them because of the fallen nature we still possess. Thus a person may still have the virtue of faith even if momentarily tempted by doubt, a person may still have the virtue of trust even if scared or tempted by despair, and a person may still have the virtue of charity even if he is often selfish. Only a direct, grave violation (mortal sin against) of one of the virtues destroys the virtue.

As our sanctification progresses, these virtues within us are strengthened by God and we are able to more easily exercise faith, more easily exercise trust, and more easily exercise love. Performing acts of faith, hope, and charity becomes easier as we grow in the Christian life (note the great difficulty new converts often experience in these areas compared to those who have attained a measure of spiritual maturity).

However, so long as one has any measure of faith, hope, and charity, one is in a state of justification. Thus Catholics often use the soteriological slogan that we are “saved by faith, hope, and charity.” This does not disagree with the Protestant soteriological slogan that we are “saved by faith alone” if the term “faith” is understood in the latter to be faith formed by charity or Galatians 5 faith.
read more here

 

[Ferris Bueller]

faith formed by charity

No, charity formed by faith! Romans 1:5

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, charity formed by faith! Romans 1:5

Faith formed by charity (Gal 5:6, 1 Cor. 13:1-13, James 2:26).
1 Coe 13:1-3
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Gal. 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

James 2:26)
As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

 

[amadeus]

Many Protestants today realize that Catholics adhere to the idea of salvation sola gratia (by grace alone), but fewer are aware that Catholics do not have to condemn the formula of justification sola fide (by faith alone), provided this phrase is properly understood.

The term pistis is used in the Bible in a number of different senses, ranging from intellectual belief (Romans 14:22, 23, James 2:19), to assurance (Acts 17:31), and even to trustworthiness or reliability (Romans 3:3, Titus 2:10). Of key importance is Galatians 5:6, which refers to “faith working by charity.” In Catholic theology, this is what is known as fides formata or “faith formed by charity.” The alternative to formed faith is fides informis or “faith unformed by charity.” This is the kind of faith described in James 2:19, for example.

Whether a Catholic rejects the idea of justification by faith alone depends on what sense the term “faith” is being used in. If it is being used to refer to unformed faith then a Catholic rejects the idea of justification by faith alone (which is the point James is making in James 2:19, as every non-antinomian Evangelical agrees; one is not justified by intellectual belief alone).

However, if the term “faith” is being used to refer to faith formed by charity then the Catholic does not have to condemn the idea of justification by faith alone. In fact, in traditional works of Catholic theology, one regularly encounters the statement that formed faith is justifying faith. If one has formed faith, one is justified. Period.

A Catholic would thus reject the idea of justification sola fide informi but wholeheartedly embrace the idea of justification sola fide formata. Adding the word “formed” to clarify the nature of the faith in “sola fide” renders the doctrine completely acceptable to a Catholic...

...This leads me to why Catholics do not use the formula “faith alone.” Given the different usages of the term “faith” in the Bible, the early Church had to decide which meaning would be treated as normative. Would it be the Galatians 5 sense or the Romans 14/James 2 sense? The Church opted for the latter for several reasons:

First, the Romans 14 sense of the term pistis is frankly the more common in the New Testament. It is much harder to think of passages which demand that pistis mean “faith formed by charity” than it is to think of passages which demand that pistis mean “intellectual belief.” In fact, even in Galatians 5:6 itself, Paul has to specify that it is faith formed by charity that he is talking about, suggesting that this is not the normal use of the term in his day.

Second, the New Testament regularly (forty-two times in the KJV) speaks of “the faith,” meaning a body of theological beliefs (e.g. Jude 3). The connection between pistis and intellectual belief is clearly very strong in this usage.

Third, Catholic theology has focused on the triad of faith, hope, and charity, which Paul lays great stress on and which is found throughout his writings, not just in 1 Corinthians 13:13 (though that is the locus classicus for it), including places where it is not obvious because of the English translation or the division of verses. If in this triad “faith” is taken to mean “formed faith” then hope and charity are collapsed into faith and the triad is flattened. To preserve the distinctiveness of each member of the triad, the Church chose to use the term “faith” in a way that did not include within it the ideas of hope (trust) and charity (love). Only by doing this could the members of the triad be kept from collapsing into one another.

Thus the Catholic Church normally expresses the core essences of these virtues like this:

Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us . . . because he is truth itself. (CCC 1814)

Hope is the theological virtue by which we desire the kingdom of heaven and eternal life as our happiness, placing our trust in Christ’s promises and relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit. (CCC 1817)

Charity is the theological virtue by which we love God above all things for his own sake, and our neighbor as ourselves for the love of God. (CCC 1822)

In common Catholic usage, faith is thus unconditional belief in what God says, hope is unconditional trust in God, and charity is unconditional love for God. When we are justified, God places all three of these virtues in our hearts. These virtues are given to each of the justified, even though our outward actions do not always reflect them because of the fallen nature we still possess. Thus a person may still have the virtue of faith even if momentarily tempted by doubt, a person may still have the virtue of trust even if scared or tempted by despair, and a person may still have the virtue of charity even if he is often selfish. Only a direct, grave violation (mortal sin against) of one of the virtues destroys the virtue.

As our sanctification progresses, these virtues within us are strengthened by God and we are able to more easily exercise faith, more easily exercise trust, and more easily exercise love. Performing acts of faith, hope, and charity becomes easier as we grow in the Christian life (note the great difficulty new converts often experience in these areas compared to those who have attained a measure of spiritual maturity).

However, so long as one has any measure of faith, hope, and charity, one is in a state of justification. Thus Catholics often use the soteriological slogan that we are “saved by faith, hope, and charity.” This does not disagree with the Protestant soteriological slogan that we are “saved by faith alone” if the term “faith” is understood in the latter to be faith formed by charity or Galatians 5 faith.
read more here

Thank you for your effort to explain the question.

I read most of the first part of your post and could not disagree on some essential conclusions especially since much is based on scripture, I Cor chapter 13 in particular.

But..., I could not read all that you posted thing because of my inability this evening to hold the contents and conclusions together. One of those senior moments or simply tired? If I needed to oppose what you wrote, I would not have tried.

However, I know that at least generally when it comes to OSAS I am closer in my own beliefs to Catholicism than a number of other non-Catholics on this forum. However, since the details are not meshing well in my mind, I am cutting this short.

I know that you did mention charity and faith. @BreadOfLife also cited some verses from I Corinthians 13 with regard to charity and faith. That chapter concisely tells us a whole lot of things, if we are able to correctly understand and apply its contents. God has been working with me and on me in that chapter for years. I still go back and read it regularly. How well does anyone understand it all? Understanding it well would be a very good thing. In the chapter itself we read this:

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known" I Cor 13:12

Moving toward that face to face is my road to Him. God told David to seek His face. David certainly did and I also do. We all should be doing that, I believe, seeking His face. If we really are, will He not help us? If you have questions, hopefully tomorrow after my physical rest and my time with God I can come through more clearly.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Faith formed by charity (Gal 5:6, 1 Cor. 13:1-13, James 2:26).
1 Coe 13:1-3
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Gal. 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

James 2:26)
As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

You got it backwards there, pal.
Charity is the result of having faith in God's forgiveness of sin.

This is why you're Catholic and we're not. Catholicism is a works salvation religion. You make yourself right with God through the satisfactory completion of various works, instead of receiving the righteousness that is from God through faith in God which in turn causes a person to then do right.

And look, I know you're not going to get it. You're in a completely different paradigm of thought. There's no reconciliation possible between Catholics and Protestants. That's why you exist in one world and we in another. Before my recent conversations with you and other Catholics here in this forum I have had zero contact with Catholics. You're in a completely different world that I have no part of and want no part of. You are in the grip of a cult of self appointed leaders that have set themselves up between you and God, between you and the truth. Very, very few people are able to put the mindset of a cult off and come out of it.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

so, those are both pistis, but there are five other roots for "believe," and i would say that "believing means believing" to us, sure, but for instance Abraham did not "have faith" in Yah initially, and did you "have faith" in santa claus or the tooth fairy?

I think it is a crime to xlate pistis as "believe" myself, mostly bc "beliefs" are subject to change, supposedly, whereas imo faith is not

I think you are trying to impose the English connotations of our words 'faith' and 'belief' onto the Greek word pisteuo that the Greek word does not have. The Greek does not have two different words for 'faith' and 'belief' and so does not distinguish between connotations that only we have in our language.

In it's verb form, faith/belief is pisteuo in the Greek. The demons are said to have pisteuo in James 2:17, and Abraham has pisteuo in Romans 4:5. All the word means is you are believing. What's different between the demons believing and Abraham's believing is WHAT they are believing in. In context, Abraham's believing is in the promises of God. The demons believing is they believe there is one God. Big difference. A difference that exists because of the context the believing - the pisteuo - is referring to, not because there is a difference between faith and belief in the Greek.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

This parable is NOT only about Israel as a whole – but about the INDIVIDUAL child of God who rejects Him, then returns.

It is about individuals. A nation of individuals who fell as a nation long before Christ showed up. And individuals who, alive at the time, responded to Christ's gospel message. The nation of individuals who fell away and the individuals that are alive when Christ appeared and have always been in their fallen state and are saved by Christ are not the same individuals. That's what you're not getting. Protestant OSASer's don't get that either.

The prodigal son represents the nation as a whole, individuals who were born and raised in their national rejection of the old covenant. That is the state of Israel when Jesus came to them. But through his ministry some came back to the Father as new covenant believers. This is not a parable about a person being saved then falling away and Christ bringing them back.

Look I know you won't get it. You never will. I understand that. You're locked in the Catholic paradigm of thought. Just as OSASer's are locked in the OSAS paradigm of thought. I'm not concerned about it anymore. I've come to realize and now accept that most are going to stay exactly where they are at no matter what you show them.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The Bible doesn't support YOUR perversion of what the Church is.

It is not a loose gaggle of dispersed "believers".
Tt is ONE, unified, visible body (John 17:20-23, Matt.514) who ALL believe and practice in like mind, spirit and doctrine (Eph. 4:5) and NO Protestant splinter group fits that bill.

It's funny that what I'm saying is staring you right in the face right there in your John 17:20-23 reference but you can't see it. You can't see it because your determined, narrow Catholic mindset is keeping you from seeing it. Hey, that's just the way it is. I'm not going to get excited about it. It is what it is.

 

[bbyrd009]

I think you are trying to impose the English connotations of our words 'faith' and 'belief' onto the Greek word pisteuo that the Greek word does not have. The Greek does not have two different words for 'faith' and 'belief' and so does not distinguish between connotations that only we have in our language.

In it's verb form, faith/belief is pisteuo in the Greek. The demons are said to have pisteuo in James 2:17, and Abraham has pisteuo in Romans 4:5. All the word means is you are believing. What's different between the demons believing and Abraham's believing is WHAT they are believing in. In context, Abraham's believing is in the promises of God. The demons believing is they believe there is one God. Big difference. A difference that exists because of the context the believing - the pisteuo - is referring to, not because there is a difference between faith and belief in the Greek.

as i recall that clears up a lot of any supposed confusion, ya. Maybe not all of it though, we often use "faith" as a noun now, when that likely was not the original intent...and we seem to have become more "all or nothing" since then, as in who could define five diff levels of either one now? So less than trying to disentangle the two, it seemed to me that the more fruitful path lie in understanding the Hebrew levels of "belief"

I've come to realize and now accept that most are going to stay exactly where they are at no matter what you show them.

there's a subtle/profound diff in showing someone something and planting a seed, i guess

what is the diff in a sheep and a goat? maybe

 

[Ferris Bueller]

So less than trying to disentangle the two, it seemed to me that the more fruitful path lie in understanding the Hebrew levels of "belief"

Do you mean Greek?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

there's a subtle/profound diff in showing someone something and planting a seed, i guess

what is the diff in a sheep and a goat? maybe

I thought I could tell when seeds are being planted and when someone is hardened in their thinking by choice.

And the difference between sheep and goats? Well, I'm usually hesitant to equate hardness and stubbornness with being an unsaved goat, but it does cross my mind.

 

[bbyrd009]

Do you mean Greek?

OT

 

[BreadOfLife]

You got it backwards there, pal.
Charity is the result of having faith in God's forgiveness of sin.

This is why you're Catholic and we're not. Catholicism is a works salvation religion. You make yourself right with God through the satisfactory completion of various works, instead of receiving the righteousness that is from God through faith in God which in turn causes a person to then do right.

And look, I know you're not going to get it. You're in a completely different paradigm of thought. There's no reconciliation possible between Catholics and Protestants. That's why you exist in one world and we in another. Before my recent conversations with you and other Catholics here in this forum I have had zero contact with Catholics. You're in a completely different world that I have no part of and want no part of. You are in the grip of a cult of self appointed leaders that have set themselves up between you and God, between you and the truth. Very, very few people are able to put the mindset of a cult off and come out of it.

WRONG again.

You cannot have true faith witho0ut ALL THREE of the virtues Paul speaks about in 1 Cot. 13:1-13 -
Faith (belief/pis'-tis)
Hope (expectation of salvation/el-pece')
Charity (love/ag-ah'-pay)

That's the entire point of this passage.

Like James's explanation of true faith in James 2:19, Paul explains that you can "believe" until the cows come home - but that is NOT true faith. Once again - YOU are confused because you don't understand that the NT wasn't written in English - but Koine GREEK. As I showed you before - the SAME word (pis'-tis) is used for "belief" and "faith".
And unless you apply the correct CONYEXT of the passages, you wind up confused as you are.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The Bible doesn't support YOUR perversion of what the Church is.

It is not a loose gaggle of dispersed "believers".
Tt is ONE, unified, visible body (John 17:20-23, Matt.514) who ALL believe and practice in like mind, spirit and doctrine (Eph. 4:5) and NO Protestant splinter group fits that bill.

It's funny that what I'm saying is staring you right in the face right there in your John 17:20-23 reference but you can't see it. You can't see it because your determined, narrow Catholic mindset is keeping you from seeing it. Hey, that's just the way it is. I'm not going to get excited about it. It is what it is.

WRONG.

As I showed you before - neither Matt. 15:4 and John 17:20-23 doesn't support YOU fallacy that Christ's Church is a diaspora of disjointed splinter sects and renegade individuals like you who ALL believe in different doctrines based on the teachings of bickering men who came 1500 years AFTER Jesus built His Church.

Matt. 5:14
“You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden."

John 17:20-23
“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be ONE, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may all be ONE even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.

The perpetually-splintering mess that is Protestantism doesn't fit this model.