Secure Eternal Salvation

[farouk]

Maybe, maybe not.
The important thing is to keep believing as the Bible tells us to do. Because unbelievers won't inherit the kingdom of God. It's immaterial if the unbeliever never really believed, or stopped truly believing. The outcome is the same; they will not inherit the kingdom of God.

The bottom line is that it wasn't saving faith, else they would be saved. The Parable of Sower is relevant, as to whether there is ground for the root of faith to take hold.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The bottom line is that it wasn't saving faith, else they would be saved. The Parable of Sower is relevant, as to whether there is ground for the root of faith to take hold.

But like I say, it doesn't matter. Either way, if they never really believed, or stopped believing, that person is going to the lake of fire, not into the kingdom of God. So let's do what we know is made very clear in the Bible: Keep believing. That's what we need to be talking about, not whether or not failed believing was real to begin with or not.

 

[Enoch111]

That's what we need to be talking about, not whether or not failed believing was real to begin with or not.

That's what Calvinism calls "the perseverance of the saints".
XIII. Of Sanctification
I. They who are effectually called and regenerated, having a new heart and a new spirit created in them, are further sanctified, really and personally, through the virtue of Christ’s death and resurrection, by his Word and Spirit dwelling in them; the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed, and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified, and they more and more quickened and strengthened, in all saving graces, to the practice of true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

These are not legalistic works:

Paul was never opposed to works of mercy, he opposed the legal works of the law as useless.

The point is, not one of these spiritual, good things gives a person the "righteousness that is from God".

"...this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." Romans 3:22

" Christ is the end of the law, to bring righteousness to everyone who believes." Romans 10:4 ​

The righteousness that does the things in your list is given to a person as a free gift in response to believing the word of God apart from works, not given to a person as a debt owed for work performed, like circumcision (or any work of obedience). Even though circumcision is required (what we now know to be spiritual circumcision of the heart), and every other obedience commanded by the Lord.

Paul explains that Abraham's obedience in circumcision was the sign of the righteousness that he had received through his faith before he was circumcised, and so the righteousness he was given from God was given apart from his works. And so all the good things in your list are signs of the righteousness a person has received from God because they believe in the promise of the gospel, not received because they did the things in your list of works.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

James 2:24 appears to be inconsistent with Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28 until one realizes that the Word of God cannot contradict itself. This means that the “works” in James 2:24 are different from the “works of the law in Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28.

No, that's not the reason why they don't contradict. They don't contradict because Paul is talking about being made righteous and James is talking about being shown to be righteous.
Being justified means, both, to be made righteous, and to be shown to be righteous.
You can see from the context of Paul's letter that he is talking about receiving righteousness from God - being made righteous. While the context of James' letter shows us that he is talking about being shown to have the righteousness of God by the works you do.

And so it is that a man is justified by, both, faith and works (James 2:24).
Faith solicits the righteousness that comes from God apart from works.
Works show you to have the righteousness that comes from God through faith in God apart from works.
Catholics don't do very well with the matter of righteousness coming from God on the basis of one's faith all by itself apart from works.
Protestants don't do very well with the matter of one's works being necessary to show that you have the righteousness that comes from God apart from works.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Rom. 4:9-17 – Paul provides further discussion that righteousness God seeks in us does not come from Mosaic law, but through faith. But notice that Paul also never says “faith alone.”

Correct, Paul never says 'faith alone'.
The phrase he uses is 'apart from works', or 'without works' (Romans 4:6).
I wish Luther had been more careful to use the appropriate terminology ('apart from works') when referring to Paul's argument that righteousness comes from God apart from our works so that it would not be confused with James' 'faith alone' argument. And I wish we Protestants would do the same, lol.

But the point is, 'faith alone' (James 2:24), and 'apart from works' (Romans 4:6) are two different arguments about justification. And a person should be careful to use the language James and Paul each use in regard to the argument they are making about justification.
'Faith alone' means having a claim to faith without works to back up that claim to faith. While 'Apart from works' means receiving God's righteousness without doing works.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

James in James 2 does not use “ergon nomou.” He uses “ergois agathois.” Therefore, Paul’s “works of the law” and James’ “works” are entirely different types of works.

“works of law” does not mean “good works.”

All the works that James uses to illustrate his teaching about faith being alone (devoid of works) are works of the law - laws regarding widows and orphans, showing favoritism, murder, adultery, and love, even referring to those as the "perfect law of freedom" and "the law that gives freedom", and the "the royal law stated in Scripture", meaning, of course, the very law of Moses.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Rom. 4:3-4 – Paul refers to works apart from God’s grace. We do not obligate God to give us grace like an employee obligates his employer to pay wages. Faith in Christ must be behind our good works in order for it to be considered a work of grace; otherwise, it is a work of law or obligation.

The problem is your 'work of grace' is still work. And Paul is very clear that righteousness comes to us from God apart from work, even if the work completed is the result of faith, or not.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Gal. 3:17 – this “law” came 430 years after Abraham. So “works of law” here clearly refer to the Mosaic law, not “good works.”

As I've shown, James' 'good works' are still Paul's 'works of the law'.
But even if you want to maintain the distinction between 'good works' and 'works of the law', Abraham was not made righteous by good works either.

 

[BreadOfLife]

But you are the one ignoring the context of Hebrews 6:4-6.
The repentance being spoken of is the repentance the born again person had towards Christ. And that it is impossible (not allowed) to come back to that repentance if they fall away.
But you're saying the repentance it's impossible to have again is repentance towards the old covenant system of sacrifice. Why is it impossible to do that???? I mean, by them going back to the old law that is the very repentance your interpretation of the passage says is impossible to have. So we know repentance in the passage doesn't mean that.

Keep 'repentance' in the context of the passage!
It's the repentance they once had in regard to Christ and the gospel.
It's impossible to get that back because it puts Christ to open shame, and so God doesn't allow it. He doesn't grant it again to the born again person who has fallen away into unbelief.

Looks like it's time for another Bible Lesson . . .

Whatr does the Bible say about sin, repentance and forgiveness?
Jesus told Peter that he must forgive his brother an UNLIMITED amount of time (Matt. 18:22)

Jesus tells the headstrong Pharisees that who REFUSE to believe in the truth about Him and instead mock the Holy Spirit’s revelation that their final impenitence will NOT be forgiven (Matt. 12:31-32).
This is the ONLY offense, He says, that will not be forgiven.

ALL sins – including apostasy can be forgiven in this lifetime.
Did you learn NOTHING from the Parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:12-32)??

The “Son“ in this story is the Christian who is ALREADY secure – but he gives it up, rejects his Father and leaves home. The Father (God) forgives him when he comes home in repentance.
The Son became APOSTATE in this story – then begged for forgiveness, which the Father was more than willing to give him

God id ALWAYS willing to forgive our sins.
Jesus would never have commanded Peter to ALWAYS forgive his brother unless the Father is willing.

You cannot “out0forgive” God.

Now – back to Heb. 6:4-6 . . .
Heb. 6:4-6
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance.

Once AGAIN – this is NOT written to Gentile Christians – but JEWISH Christian converts.
If you read the ENTIRE Book of Hebrews, you will see the CONTEXT of this passage.
- In chapters 1 and 2, Jesus is shown to be greater than the angels and is revealed as God.
- Chapters 3 and 4 reveal Him as the true high priest and is greater than Moses, and fulfills what the Sabbath symbolized.
- Chapters 5 and 7 show Him to be the fulfillment of Melchizedek.
- Chapter 8 describes Him as being superior to and the fulfillment of the Old Covenant,
- Chapters 9 and 10 show Him to be superior to the temple and its sacrifices.

It is impossible for a Jewish Christian to go BACK to the Law for repentance and forgiveness.
This is a mockery of the Sacrifice of Christ.

This passage if NOT saying that a Jewish Christian cannot come back from apostasy.
That would be a direct contradiction of the teachings of Jesus. If repentance is “impossible” at ANY point in our life – then Jesus is liar.

Are YOU willing to call Him that?
Good luck with that . . .

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Whatr does the Bible say about sin, repentance and forgiveness?
Jesus told Peter that he must forgive his brother an UNLIMITED amount of time (Matt. 18:22)

Jesus tells the headstrong Pharisees that who REFUSE to believe in the truth about Him and instead mock the Holy Spirit’s revelation that their final impenitence will NOT be forgiven (Matt. 12:31-32).
This is the ONLY offense, He says, that will not be forgiven.

ALL sins – including apostasy can be forgiven in this lifetime.
Did you learn NOTHING from the Parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:12-32)??

The “Son“ in this story is the Christian who is ALREADY secure – but he gives it up, rejects his Father and leaves home. The Father (God) forgives him when he comes home in repentance.
The Son became APOSTATE in this story – then begged for forgiveness, which the Father was more than willing to give him

God id ALWAYS willing to forgive our sins.
Jesus would never have commanded Peter to ALWAYS forgive his brother unless the Father is willing.

You cannot “out0forgive” God.

The time comes when God turns you over to your rejection of the gospel...

"16See to it that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his birthright. 17For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected. He could find no ground for repentance, though he sought the blessing with tears." Hebrews 12:16-17

" they refused the love of the truth that would have saved them. 11For this reason God will send them a powerful delusion so that they believe the lie, 12in order that judgment may come upon all who have disbelieved the truth and delighted in wickedness." 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12​

 

[Ferris Bueller]

It is impossible for a Jewish Christian to go BACK to the Law for repentance and forgiveness.
...
This passage if NOT saying that a Jewish Christian cannot come back from apostasy.
That would be a direct contradiction of the teachings of Jesus. If repentance is “impossible” at ANY point in our life – then Jesus is liar.

"4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— 6and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame." Hebrews 6:4-6​

Obviously, "restored to repentance" is referring to what the born again believer fell away from. And it says it's impossible to be restored to the repentant state they fell away from. God doesn't allow it because it puts Christ to open shame. I don't think God is quick to turn someone over like that. But it says he will.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The time comes when God turns you over to your rejection of the gospel...

"16See to it that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his birthright. 17For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected. He could find no ground for repentance, though he sought the blessing with tears." Hebrews 12:16-17

" they refused the love of the truth that would have saved them. 11For this reason God will send them a powerful delusion so that they believe the lie, 12in order that judgment may come upon all who have disbelieved the truth and delighted in wickedness." 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12​

I have warned you repeatedly NOT to cherry-pick verses OUT of theit proper context – yet you continue to do so to your own destruction (2 Pet. 3:16).

2 Thess. 2:10-12 is talking about those who have chosen to believe the Antichrist in the END TIMES. It is NOT talking about born again Christians.

As to your perversion of Hebrews 12:16-17, this does NOT imply that Esau went to Hell.
It t is an admonishment to live holy and blameless lives so as not to have any regrets like Esau – who could not change what he had done.

Even a person who rapes and kills someone can STILL be reconciled with God – but he has to live with what he did - and Esau was NO different. This chapter is about the DISCIPLINE of God in our lives.

Davis had Uriah killed so that he could have his wife. He repented and was forgiven by God – but the sword NEVER left his house.

The God of the Bible will ALWAYS forgive a penitent heart – even if your little god won’t.

 

[BreadOfLife]

"4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— 6and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame." Hebrews 6:4-6

Obviously, "restored to repentance" is referring to what the born again believer fell away from. And it says it's impossible to be restored to the repentant state they fell away from. God doesn't allow it because it puts Christ to open shame. I don't think God is quick to turn someone over like that. But it says he will.

Once again – it’s NOT talking about the “impossibility” being God’s.
It is an “impossibility” for the Jew (Hebrews) who has resolved to return to the Law, thereby nullifying the Sacrifice of Christ.

The little “god” that YOU’VE invented for yourself may be limited – but NOTJING is impossible for the Almighty God of Scripture (Luke 1:37), as I have AMPLY shown you over the last several pages of posts . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

As I've shown, James' 'good works' are still Paul's 'works of the law'.
But even if you want to maintain the distinction between 'good works' and 'works of the law', Abraham was not made righteous by good works either.

This is why I have repeatedly shown you that, in its proper CONTEXT – the Bible does not agree with your position.

James 2:20-22
You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

This is why James drives the point home that faith is NOT simply “believing” in God (James 2:19) – but believing and being OBEDIENT through works.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

This is why I have repeatedly shown you that, in its proper CONTEXT – the Bible does not agree with your position.

James 2:20-22
You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

This is why James drives the point home that faith is NOT simply “believing” in God (James 2:19) – but believing and being OBEDIENT through works.

You're not even getting what I said, lol.
Real faith being active, not dead is not even the issue we're discussing, lol.
I have no disagreement with that.

The point being addressed here is Abraham was not MADE righteous by what he did.
His faith in the promise of God did that all by itself before he did any work. This is what Romans 4 is all about.
His work did not secure the righteousness that comes from God (that's Paul's argument). His work showed that he had it (that's James' argument).

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Once again – it’s NOT talking about the “impossibility” being God’s.
It is an “impossibility” for the Jew (Hebrews) who has resolved to return to the Law, thereby nullifying the Sacrifice of Christ.

The little “god” that YOU’VE invented for yourself may be limited – but NOTJING is impossible for the Almighty God of Scripture (Luke 1:37), as I have AMPLY shown you over the last several pages of posts . . .

Why in heaven and earth would being restored not be in regard to that which he has fallen away from?????

"and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance"​

It's so simple. It's staring you right in the face yet you insist on reaching for an illogical, out of context interpretation that defies the simple words of the passage itself.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I have warned you repeatedly NOT to cherry-pick verses

Who do you think you are??????
Seriously, man, come down off your high horse, lol.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

As to your perversion of Hebrews 12:16-17, this does NOT imply that Esau went to Hell.

What is it about not getting the inheritance that you do not understand?

 

[bbyrd009]

But like I say, it doesn't matter. Either way, if they never really believed, or stopped believing, that person is going to the lake of fire, not into the kingdom of God. So let's do what we know is made very clear in the Bible: Keep believing. That's what we need to be talking about, not whether or not failed believing was real to begin with or not.

what kind of believing y'all discussing there, Ferris? There's five diff kinds is why i ask